MovieChat Forums > Serenity (2005) Discussion > Much weaker than the series

Much weaker than the series

posted 8 years ago by max-philips
11 replies | jump to latest

I can't say that I'm a huge fan of the series, but I liked many aspects of it. The overall atmosphere and tone is dark, reminded me BSG. The acting is great, the jokes are just right, not too much, not too little. The CGI and sets are solid. I didn't quite like wild west themes (aka Cowbow Bebop), but at least the series didn't have jazz in it :) The series also lacked a plot line and had some obvious scientific goofs, but overall it was great.

Movie however is a different story. The characters were changed from the series, especially Inara. The whole reavers stuff was kinda ridiculous. In the movie they are shown as usual hollywood zombies, but they can't be like that. They are intelligent enough to communicate, operate and maintain spaceships and also seem to have military training and skills. The idea of Mal sacrificing his ship and the crew in order to broadcast some goofy obscure footage is also laughable. Mal from the series would never do that. I was disappointed by the movie as it went too far from the series, and was also surprised to see its rating here on imdb.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

The series also lacked a plot line

Except of course the Alliance hunting down River and Simon. And Shepherd Book's mysterious past. And the compression coil.

You are sin.

[–] max-philips 8 years ago

None of this is a plot line. Basically you can watch episode 1 (character introduction) and then randomly watch remaining episodes in any order. If you want to know how a plot line in sci-fi show looks like go see Babylon 5.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

Basically you can watch episode 1 (character introduction) and then randomly watch remaining episodes in any order.

You can't do that with Firefly.

Niska returns in War Stories looking for revenge for what Mal and his crew did in The Train Job.

Safe picks up immediately after Shindig. Trash has to come after Our Mrs. Reynolds. The money in Ariel is used in War Stories.

Ariel leads to Simon coming up with better medication for River.

The compression coil is mentioned several times before it malfunctions in Out of Gas.

Inara says she's leaving at the end of Heart of Gold and she's preparing for that in Objects in Space.

Also in Objects in Space, Kaylee specifically mentions River's actions in War Stories.

If you want to know how a plot line in sci-fi show looks like go see Babylon 5.

Firefly does not rely on a plot line. There are several.

You are sin.

[–] max-philips 8 years ago

Yes, a 1-line mention, "money from one episode used in another episode" kind of stuff, but not more.
Niska is just a character featured in 2 episodes, what is his plot line ? What is the beginning of his story, what is the apex ? What consequences these episodes have for the crew, except several occasional lines in another episode ? What exactly in future episodes I will not understand if I missed Niska episodes ? A character was killed or a new character was introduced ? A bigger quest began for the crew, some events took place that determine character actions or choices in future episodes ? One answer to all these questions - no. If I skip Niska episodes I miss nothing.
Now think about a plot line as a movie or a book. Can you watch a theatrical movie like that - 10 mins from the beginning, then 10 mins before the end, then 10 mins from the middle or read a book like that ? That's what a good plot line is - a big 50- or 100-hour long movie cut into 45-min pieces. You cannot skip them, you cannot watch them in random order. And that's what Firefly (and many other sci-fi shows like BSG) don't have.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

Niska is just a character featured in 2 episodes, what is his plot line ?

It's not his plot line, it's Mal's.

What exactly in future episodes I will not understand if I missed Niska episodes ?

A big chunk of Ariel.

A bigger quest began for the crew, some events took place that determine character actions or choices in future episodes ? One answer to all these questions - no

Incorrect. What you're looking for is serialized story telling. There's a difference. Firefly is not entirely serialize, but it still has plot lines throughout.

Now think about a plot line as a movie or a book. Can you watch a theatrical movie like that - 10 mins from the beginning, then 10 mins before the end, then 10 mins from the middle

Ever watch a Tarantino movie? Or Memento?

or read a book like that ?

Ever read Naked Lunch?

You cannot skip them, you cannot watch them in random order.

You can't do that with Firefly either, as I pointed out the various plot threads that run throughout the series. It may not be as serialized as Lost, but it still can't be watched in random order.

You are sin.

[–] max-philips 8 years ago

It's not his plot line, it's Mal's.

Can you describe Mal's plot line then.
He fought on a war, he bought a ship and hired a crew, he was tortured by Niska and got his ear cut off, which is back by the end of the episode. It's not a plot line, it's biography.
The definition of a plot line - "Plot refers to the sequence of events inside a story which affect other events through the principle of cause and effect. The causal events of a plot can be thought of as a series of sentences linked by "and so"."
Now please finish this series of sentences: Niska tortured Mal and so <your text here>.

A big chunk of Ariel.

Episode where the were stealing drugs ? How is it related to Niska ?

Incorrect. What you're looking for is serialized story telling.

Ok, maybe I should've used different terminology. What I was talking about is a story line.

Ever watch a Tarantino movie? Or Memento?

Since we're discussing plot line (or story line), a book or movie should have it too. Obviously there are both movies and tv-series that you can watch randomly, but the focus of our discussion is not on them.

You can't do that with Firefly either, as I pointed out the various plot threads that run throughout the series.

But again, it lacks a bigger story line. The whole series is just a description of the crew flying to different planets to earn money and occasionally there are references to other episodes.
Some episodes like James planet are never mentioned at all. Some are mentioned in the dialogue, to make viewer think they matter, but it's not true. An example is River's seeming recovery, but if you think more of it - she continues doing exactly the same crazy stuff with only difference that Mal and doctor occasionally have conversions like "- You said she is better ? - Yes, I thought so too, but looks like not." In terms of cause and effect Ariel episode has 0 effect on River character development.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

Niska tortured Mal and so Mal has now gained a new respect from his pilot and the audience understands Mal's character and drive even more. We also see just how dark Mal can be, something we've only been given hints at. Also, the crew is now broke again because they gave all their money to Niska.

How is it related to Niska ?

I told you. The money they use to pay for Wash is the money they earned from selling the medicine.

In War Stories, they also specifically point out that Jayne bought a crate of apples, something unusually generous for him. This is due to his guilt at having betrayed Simon and River, and therefore, Mal, in Ariel.

You're only looking for events. But plot also refers to characterization/evolution.

Before I forget: the Hands of Blue are also first introduced in The Train Job and then they show up again in Ariel.

What I was talking about is a story line.

That's still incorrect terminology because Firefly has multiple story lines that flow, not just one.

Like I said, you just want serialized story telling. Which is not a bad thing, but not having it doesn't mean episodes can be watched in just any order.

Since we're discussing plot line (or story line), a book or movie should have it too.

And those movies I listed do have a plot line.

But again, it lacks a bigger story line.

Irrelevant. The episodes have various plot threads throughout the entire series. They can't be watched in random order. Fox tried to air them that way, and fans noticed there was something off.

In terms of cause and effect Ariel episode has 0 effect on River character development.

Yep. But it has plenty of effect on Jayne's character. And it's referenced in "Trash" between Simon and Jayne. An important character moment for both of them. Just because it has 0 effect on one character, doesn't mean it didn't have any effect. There were nine people on that ship.

You are sin.

[–] max-philips 8 years ago

Well, several things worth mentioning here.
I didn't know about Fox, but if even a broadcasting company did that it means smth. Also, how soon the fans noticed, how many random episodes have they aired ?
When you justify the plot all your examples are basically - in episode X someone said - hey, remember we did that in episode Y ? No real character actions or events are affected by those choices. Wash didn't leave the ship because he was not payed, nothing happened because Jayne felt guilty, nothing happened because Mal was tortured. Screenwriters specifically do that kind of dialogue references to give the show a feel of a linked whole.
What I'm referring to, on the other hand, are actual events (remember the definition of the plot - a sequence of events). Character development is not a plot, knowing Mal has dark side does not contribute to a plot. Now *if* he did smth very grim or unexpectedly dark, Niska episode can be used in a cause-effect sequence to explain that. But he *didn't* do anything except verbal references.
Can you name a sequence of relevant events that actually link the episodes, in addition to "they talked about it later" or "we saw a new side of the character". Talking or new side of the character does not contribute to a storyline, unless smth happens because of it or it explains smth that happened.
And no - "he bought apples because he felt guilty from previous episode" is not a plot line.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

Also, how soon the fans noticed, how many random episodes have they aired ?

Fans noticed right away. The first episode aired is not the pilot. Every character is there without their proper introductions.

No real character actions or events are affected by those choices.

Incorrect:

Niska returns in War Stories looking for revenge for what Mal and his crew did in The Train Job.

The money in Ariel is used in War Stories.

Ariel leads to Simon coming up with better medication for River.

The compression coil is mentioned several times before it malfunctions in Out of Gas.

Inara says she's leaving at the end of Heart of Gold and she's preparing for that in Objects in Space.

Also in Objects in Space, Kaylee specifically mentions River's actions in War Stories.

Character development is not a plot,

Incorrect. There have been numerous stories and movies were the plot is just character development.

Can you name a sequence of relevant events that actually link the episodes,

Niska returns in War Stories looking for revenge for what Mal and his crew did in The Train Job.

The money from Ariel is used in War Stories. Without, they couldn't have rescued Wash.

The compression coil is mentioned several times before it malfunctions in Out of Gas. Mal not replacing it leads directly to the events of an entire episode.

Inara says she's leaving at the end of Heart of Gold and she's preparing for that in Objects in Space.

Again, you're looking for serialized story telling. That's not Firefly. But it's not random episodes either.

You are sin.

[–] salty101 8 years ago

There's tons of shows that don't really get into connecting plots until a season finale. Firefly however has plenty, as listed by preachcaleb, and it only went for a partial season. It created an amazing world with deep characters very quickly even while being sabotaged by fox.

[–] Forlong 8 years ago

Basically you can watch episode 1 (character introduction) and then randomly watch remaining episodes in any order.

You make it sound like that's a bad thing.

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