So wait. What happened to the Stepmom? SPOILERS - Janghwa, Hongryun (2003) Discussion

[–] Jameron 11 years ago

The "SPOILERS" in your title mean we don't have to use spoiler tags in our posts (you can't copy/paste spoiler tagged text in your replies).

Su-Mi's father may, or may not, have been having an affair with Eun-Joo, it is one interpretation but it isn't stated as definite in the film.

Eun-Joo is visibly shocked at walking in on Su-Yeon trapped under the wardrobe. It is fair to say that she is freaked out, so much so that she leaves the room. At this point it isn't clear whether she is going for help, or just running away in a slight panic. My money is on the latter, as she comes to her senses when she gets to the top of the stairs, she turns and starts to go back to help Su-Yeon but is intercepted by Su-Mi.

What happened to the original Eun-Joo? Nothing.

Just a question, are you aware that the scene with Su-Yeon crying on her mother's lap, then finding her dead mother in the wardrobe, being discovered by Eun-Joo, Eun-Joo and Su-Mi arguing at the top of the stairs ... is a flashback to before the beginning of the film? It is the circumstance surrounding Su-Yeon's death that cause Su-Mi to have a breakdown and end up in the institution, with Dissociative Personality Disorder.

The Su-Yeon we see throughout most of the film, isn't real.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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[–] kieranlmt 11 years ago

I know about the spoilers thing but its just a precaution really, don't want anyone else knowing what happens if they happen to click the board by accident.

Yea i could see it looked like she was on the verge of changing her mind but decided against it becausee of Su-mi.

Yes I new that was from before the beginning of the film since it was established not long before that scene that Su-Yeon had been dead.

It was just looking up information about the film and I had read Eun-Joo had been killed by a ghost :S I would really need to watch it again. I'll give it some time though, it was passing midnight when I had finished watching it last night and i was half asleep, no the best idea haha

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[–] Jameron 11 years ago

Oh right.

There are people that insist to the point of ad hominem that there are ghosts in this film and they will tell you that Eun-Joo is killed at the end by a vengeful ghost, presumably Su-Yeon. That is not how I see that scene at all.

For me, what we see on screen is a representation of Su-Mi's revenge fantasy. You'll notice the blood oozing up from the floor boards when Eun-Joo creeps up to the door, where did this blood come from? This blood is supposed to be Su-Yeon's blood from earlier when Su-Mi dragged the sack along the floor ... but now we know that the blood was all imagined by Su-Mi and wasn't really there.

Plus, Eun-Joo's slippers are very telling. When we see Eun-Joo as Su-Mi's projection she is wearing the grey slippers, but in the flashback she is wearing the slippers with the chequered pattern.

Grey - http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i164/infectedbyeli/A%20Tale%20of%20T wo%20Sisters/GreySlippers_zpsc565ed2e.jpg
Chequered - http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i164/infectedbyeli/A%20Tale%20of%20T wo%20Sisters/CheckeredSlippers_zpsb51ed8f2.jpg

In the scene you're interested in, she is wearing the grey slippers...

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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[–] kieranlmt 11 years ago

Aw yea I get that, it's all in her head. All these different interpretations, but that makes sense.

What about at dinner when the lady sees something under the sink? Does that not indicate the house itself is haunted?

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[–] Jameron 11 years ago

If people want to see that, then they will.

But if you consider that Me-Hee, who was also at the house when Su-Yeon and her mother died, is extremely highly strung. She carries around medication for when she has an episode, so that means that she has episodes quite often, and unpredictably, otherwise she wouldn't be carrying medication around with her. There is a theme that everyone in the film is blaming themselves for Su-Yeon's death. If you can remember the scenes in the flashback where the noise of the wardrobe falling is heard and we see everyone's reaction in turn. They stop what they are doing and think "was that a noise I should check out?" but then carry on doing what they were doing, they share the guilt of inaction, apart from Eun-Joo, she carries the guilt of action. The women are far more affected by it than the men, this might be a cultural thing(?).

When Me-Hee tells her husband(?) (I can never remember his name) that she saw a girl under the sink, we get no reaction at all from him. Which could mean he's thinking "Oh my god, she's flipped, she's seeing things now. What the hell do I say? I can't think of anything to say", or "So, she's seen that girl again. No matter how much she tries to forget Su-Yeon, she never can. There is nothing I can do or say to help her." - the latter is also a theme in the film, one can never out run the consequences of one's actions. She feels guilt about not saving Su-Yeon, and she is subconsciously punishing herself.

If people want to believe that there are ghosts in this film then fine, that's entirely up to them. Personally, I feel the film is much more tragic and heartbreaking without the supernatural interference. Su-Mi punishing herself to the point of generating a crippling mental condition is much more horrifying than the existence of a friendly ghost of her dead sister.

Another thing to consider is the scene where Su-Mi and Su-Yeon come from the jetty into the house and they are met by Eun-Joo, towards the beginning of the film (@12mins 20sec). In this scene Eun-Joo is talking and interacting with both Su-Mi and Su-Yeon, and both the girls interact with Eun-Joo. If Eun-Joo is a figment of Su-Mi's imagination, which I'm sure we all see that to be the case, then how on earth would Su-Yeon's ghost be able to interact with something that isn't really there? That just doesn't make any kind of sense to me.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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[–] kieranlmt 11 years ago

Yea i gotcha, thanks very much bud. Yea it definitely affects you more when you think of it without the supernatural element. Seems more real

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[–] Jameron 11 years ago

You're welcome :)

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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[–] PastichioRocker 11 years ago

You don't get it. From the moment the movie starts the sister Su-Yeon AND Eun-Joo aren't real, but a figment of the imagination of Su-Mi. So this scene plays all in her head. There's no Su-Yeon and there's no Eun-Joo. The real Eun-Joo shows up when Su-Mi's dad gives her a call and tells her he can't do it alone and Su-Mi's condition is getting worse. I mean, at the end of the movie we see a shot of Su-Mi getting out of the car alone.

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[–] Jameron 11 years ago

"You don't get it. From the moment the movie starts the sister Su-Yeon AND Eun-Joo aren't real, but a figment of the imagination of Su-Mi. So this scene plays all in her head. There's no Su-Yeon and there's no Eun-Joo. The real Eun-Joo shows up when Su-Mi's dad gives her a call and tells her he can't do it alone and Su-Mi's condition is getting worse. I mean, at the end of the movie we see a shot of Su-Mi getting out of the car alone." - PastichioRocker

I am well aware that Su-Yeon and Eun-Joo are in Su-Mi's imagination for most of the film. We only see the real Su-Yeon in the flashback montage where she dies, and the real Eun-Joo in that same flashback sequence and from when Su-Mi has to accept the reality of her situation when confronted with the real Eun-Joo, following her psychotic episode whilst the father is bringing the real Eun-Joo to the house.

Please quote what I have said that makes you think I don't "get it".

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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[–] thor5894 11 years ago

"When Me-Hee tells her husband(?) (I can never remember his name) that she saw a girl under the sink..."

I believe this is the flaw in your theory. The woman tells her husband she saw "a girl" under the sink, she does not say "I saw Su-yeon under the sink." Your interpretation is that she also is imagining seeing a ghost due to her guilt over Su-yeon's death. While this would seem to make sense, if that were the case, then she would have recognized the ghost as Su-yeon. But she didn't. It was just "a girl." If the whole thing was a manifestation created in her head, due to her guilt, then she would have seen Su-yeon. But if she just sees a weird-looking girl, and doesn't identify the girl as Su-yeon, then clearly it's not guilt that causes her to see it. Plus the actress doesn't play the scene at all as though she's plagued with guilt. I have to see this scene as confirmation that Su-yeon's ghost is indeed in the house.

What's tricky is that most of the scenes of Su-yeon are clearly the projections of Su-mi's mind. But not all of them. In my opinion this is a flaw of the film, in that you have a character imagining (or pretending to be) two characters who aren't there, and so you get scenes between the stepmother and Su-yeon only to be told later that neither existed. So we're to believe that Su-mi is imagining entire scenes in which she herself isn't even present. Plus a ghost. A ghost who has nightmares that, what, are also the creation of Su-mi? Add a father who thinks it prudent to allow his daughter to pretend to be her stepmother, to the point of sleeping next to him in his bed. It's all a bit much. Overall I still rate the film highly as it is exceptionally well made, but there are too many feints and fake-outs.

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[–] Jameron 11 years ago

"The woman tells her husband she saw "a girl" under the sink, she does not say "I saw Su-yeon under the sink." " - thor5894

That's an interesting observation. The subtitle on my DVD is "There was a girl under the kitchen sink". The inclusion of the word "kitchen" seems a bit clumsy to me, I wonder how much of an accurate translation that subtitle is. Could Me-Hee have said "That girl was there, under the sink"? By "That girl" she could have meant Su-Yeon. I'm aware that languages vary greatly in structure and emphasis, and I know nothing about Korean. It would be great if a Korean speaker could give us an accurate translation, as subtitles are notoriously inaccurate (even the good ones abbreviate what is said).

Consider this question, what did Me-Hee actually see under the sink? If she saw what we saw, would she be able to positively identify the girl as Su-Yeon? I couldn't. What tells me that it was supposed to be a projection/hallucination (IMO) of Su-Yeon is the dress the girl was wearing, it matches the dress worn by Su-Yeon in the photo that Eun-Joo knocks onto the floor when discovering her under the wardrobe.

Another puzzling thing is the girl, revealed by Eun-Joo moving her head, sitting at the dining table wearing a matching dress. But this girl has long hair where Su-Yeon has short hair the whole film. Unfortunately, the photo that gets knocked onto the floor is obscured by broken glass and we can't tell if Su-Yeon has short or long hair in the photo.

All that being said, I am convinced that we are meant to understand that it is Su-Yeon (in whichever form one believes) below the sink in that scene. But what does Me-Hee see? An unidentifiable girl in a green dress that she may or may not know that Su-Yeon had once worn?

There is also the possibility that Me-Hee is in denial, as well as Su-Mi. So much so that her mind is protecting her from seeing Su-Yeon every time she sees a vision of a dead girl, and so giving her plausible deniability.

"What's tricky is that most of the scenes of Su-yeon are clearly the projections of Su-mi's mind. But not all of them. In my opinion this is a flaw of the film, in that you have a character imagining (or pretending to be) two characters who aren't there, and so you get scenes between the stepmother and Su-yeon only to be told later that neither existed. So we're to believe that Su-mi is imagining entire scenes in which she herself isn't even present." - thor5894

Yes.

These are the scenes that set up Su-Yeon as Eun-Joo's victim, they are crucial to Su-Mi's situation. These scenes give Su-Mi the opportunity to defend Su-Yeon, only this time she hopes to save her (it's almost too heartbreaking to bear). Su-Mi couldn't possibly be present for those scenes as she would stop anything Eun-Joo tries to do to Su-Yeon. Notice the scene at the beginning of the film where Eun-Joo greets the "two" girls in the hallway, Su-Yeon is scared of Eun-Joo and Su-Mi is a protecting prescence ... but that isn't enough for Su-Mi's guilt, she has to up the stakes and that means that Su-Yeon has to suffer in order to be properly saved.

"Add a father who thinks it prudent to allow his daughter to pretend to be her stepmother, to the point of sleeping next to him in his bed" - thor5894

But that doesn't happen. Bae Moo-hyeon doesn't know that Su-Mi is 'being' Eun-Joo. He walks into his bedroom and freezes as he sees Su-Mi in his bed. Thinking that she needs some emotional support and fatherly love (not like that) he lets her sleep in his bed. It's similar to parents letting the children sleep with them if there's a 'scary' thunderstorm. It's normal and there's nothing wrong with a parent 'sleeping' in the same bed with their child if the child needs the support and comfort.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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[–] thor5894 11 years ago

Interesting point about the subtitles, that's true that they are often imprecise.

what did Me-Hee actually see under the sink? If she saw what we saw, would she be able to positively identify the girl as Su-Yeon?

There is also the possibility that Me-Hee is in denial, as well as Su-Mi. So much so that her mind is protecting her from seeing Su-Yeon every time she sees a vision of a dead girl, and so giving her plausible deniability.

For me, this is a bit too much. It would mean that Me-Hee's mind is simultaneously making her see something, due to her feelings of guilt, and protecting her from recognizing what she is seeing? That makes no psychological sense. Her mind creating a hallucination, but protecting her from fully comprehending it--one cancels out the other. There is also the issue of why WE see the ghost. While it makes sense that we see Su-mi's projection of Su-yeon, as Su-mi is the protagonist of the movie, Me-Hee is a minor character who only appears in two scenes. Why would we suddenly, and only in one scene, see something (that isn't really there in your opinion) from the point of view of a minor character that no one else sees? This is where we have to agree to disagree.

These are the scenes that set up Su-Yeon as Eun-Joo's victim, they are crucial to Su-Mi's situation. These scenes give Su-Mi the opportunity to defend Su-Yeon, only this time she hopes to save her (it's almost too heartbreaking to bear).

Yes, I follow your logic, and here I agree with you that this is what is happening. I just think it stretches the credibility of the film.

btw, another Korean film with somewhat similar themes is Bedeviled (only in this case it involves two female friends rather than sisters). There's no supernatural element but it has a similar heartbreaking emotional arc. Highly recommended.

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[–] Jameron 11 years ago

"For me, this is a bit too much. It would mean that Me-Hee's mind is simultaneously making her see something, due to her feelings of guilt, and protecting her from recognizing what she is seeing? That makes no psychological sense. Her mind creating a hallucination, but protecting her from fully comprehending it--one cancels out the other." - thor5894

I see it as a scaled down version of what Su-Mi is living through. They are both crippled by guilt, Su-Mi more so than Me-Hee, and both have a 'coping' mechanism. Me-Hee's could be to just shut down the guilt when it arises by denying what is happening (it obviously isn't working), Su-Mi's is to try to 'save' Su-Yeon (also, not working).

"There is also the issue of why WE see the ghost. While it makes sense that we see Su-mi's projection of Su-yeon, as Su-mi is the protagonist of the movie, Me-Hee is a minor character who only appears in two scenes. Why would we suddenly, and only in one scene, see something (that isn't really there in your opinion) from the point of view of a minor character that no one else sees?" - thor5894

The film makes it clear that they all share the guilt for Su-Yeon's death; the scenes where they all turn and wonder what that noise was, but ultimately do nothing, except for Eun-Joo. And that is why I think the inclusion of Me-Hee's scene is important, she might be a minor character but she is another example of the message of the film...

"Do know what's really scary? You want to forget something. Totally wipe it off your mind. But you never can. It can't go away, you see. And... and it follows you around like a ghost."

"This is where we have to agree to disagree." - thor5894

No worries, the world would be a boring place if we all thought the same

"btw, another Korean film with somewhat similar themes is Bedeviled (only in this case it involves two female friends rather than sisters). There's no supernatural element but it has a similar heartbreaking emotional arc. Highly recommended." - thor5894

Thanks, I have just moved that film up my "to watch" list.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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[–] RinaLou 11 years ago

The presence of Suyeon is real and not in Sumi's imagination.
In the sense that after her death, she remains at the house as a ghost and Sumi can see her. But she doesn't know she is dead until the point where the father tells Sumi to stop acting weird and that Suyeon has died. Then we see Suyeon screaming because she realizes she is dead !!!!! The director said so himself and that's the video that proves it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHn3Nd947ks

From the beginning of the film, until the point where the door opens and we see her in a suit, the stepmother does not appear physically in the film. All the other appearances of the stepmother are real. Plus, through the film, the person with whom the father speaks on the telephone, is the stepmother.
And although it's not clear whether she is a real stepmom or not, it's pretty clear they live together, hence when Sumi gets hospitalized again, she returns home with the father.

Now, when the stemom returns home, we see her sitting on the dinner table, she hears a whistling, goes to the room where suyeon and mom died and happens what happens. All that part is a matter of interpretation.
a) Whether the scene is real and there is also the ghost of the real mom that kills the stepmom out of revenge.
b) Whether it is a metaphoric scene, meaning that stepmom went nuts out of guilt or killed herself, or whatever.
c) Whether the scene is symbolic and never happens in reality but in Sumi's head. Meaning that Sumi decided to kill her stepmom persona once and for all, and that she was going to be cured. Some unknown day.

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[–] Jameron 11 years ago

"The presence of Suyeon is real and not in Sumi's imagination."

"From the beginning of the film, until the point where the door opens and we see her in a suit, the stepmother does not appear physically in the film" - RinaLou

I guess that by "The presence of Suyeon is real" you mean that Su-Yeon is a ghost, yes?

And that "the stepmother does not appear physically in the film" means that Eun-Joo is just in Su-Mi's imagination, yes?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what you're saying, yes?

If what you say is correct, how do you explain the scene where Eun-Joo welcomes the "two" girls back to the house? How could Su-Yeon, a ghost, be interacting with someone [Eun-Joo] who is only in Su-Mi's imagination? Surely it makes much more sense that both Su-Yeon and Eun-Joo are in Su-Mi's imagination?

It doesn't really matter what the Director intended, but it does matter what he left in the film. And what he left in the film was a troubled girl who imagines that her dead sister is still alive.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3tGxnFKfE

http://tinyurl.com/LTROI-story

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[–] kaskait 11 years ago

We only saw Eun-Joo at the end when she came to help the father take Soo-Mi back to the hospital.

Everything that occurs around Eun-Joo is suspect. We don't know if Eun-Joo allowed Soo-Yeon to die. We only know that Soo-Mi thinks this is the case. The film takes place entirely in the unreliable viewpoint of Soo-Mi and Soo-Mi is psychotic.

Truthfully I lean toward the Eun-Joo not knowing that Soo-Yeon had an accident and her bitchy comment to Soo-Mi was totally misunderstood.

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[–] overseer-3 11 years ago

However Sumi was NOT psychotic in the flashback scenes near the end. She was right on about Eunjoo. The woman had designs on the father. Look closely at the expressions on her face when Sumi has the confrontation with her at the top of the stairs. She HATES Sumi! She will act out her vengeance on Sumi by not telling the father or other relatives there that Suyeon was in danger. She instead stands out on a porch upstairs and stares down at Sumi walking away, who LATER regrets not going with her instincts to check on Suyeon because she was tiffed at Eunjoo.

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[–] next-lover 11 years ago

Well, thanks to all the posters on this thread, I will have to re-watch this film again. There are so many things I missed and it's been a while since I've seen it + I have the knowledge now of how to frame, and thus, interpret this film (THANKS TO YOU GUYS! You guys are just so awesome for posting <3) I'll give it another try.

I was so bored at the initial viewing that I never gave it another chance. Now I will :)

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[–] overseer-3 10 years ago

I have shared it with some American friends over the years and the reactions run the gamut from "Best film I've ever seen" to "I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on so I quit." The person who made the last comment was used to straight linear Hollywood filmmaking of the 30's and 40's and had troubles acclimating to an Asian style of filmmaking, which is far more cerebral.

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