Angie's character was already pregnant before she cajoled Matt Damon into sex with her. She wanted social and financial security and decided that the unassuming would be her best bet. Bitch ruined his life. That deaf chick was hot!!
shareHow do you know this? Did I miss something?
shareObviously the film is not explicit about a lot of things opening up interpretive ideas. It just seemed to me rather convenient that she would get pregnant the first time (like that actually happens) and also considering that marrying a deaf woman from outside the group of collegues and friends would be considered uncharacteristic and risky. It's all speculation, and it might just be that he ended up with Angie because the writer wanted to convey that he was loyal to honorability, but hopefully there is a more subtle depth in the device
shareThere is not any subtle depth on the issue you raise. Im not trying to be callous or dismissive, but you are reaching with this one. And in fact, I notice that the reviewing public 'hopes' that there is some subtle depth in this movie, where in fact scenes play out in a dry, uneventful, and very linear and straightforward manner. Sorry folks, nothing that deep here.
His marriage or fraud of a marriage with Angie is simply another in a line of examples of the protoganist's choices to serve his country over himself. Whether that means killing his daughter in law, ratting on his professor, or marrying a woman for convenience, the theme runs throughout the movie. His love with the deaf girl was emotional, it was real, and it was precisely what he could not let himself become. He had to remain detached, and in a sense unreal/unhuman to function professionally.
maybe i missed something, but where did it ever say the child wasn't his? they had sex, her brother informs him she's pregnant, they get married. seems pretty straightforward to me. nowhere in the movie does it ever put into question that the child is anything but wilson's son.
the movie is quite suggestive at times, and can be extremely opaque, but on this one i thought it was fairly straightforward.
I thought it was implied when he asks her about the baby's appearance ("what color are his eyes?" IIRC) and she doesn't reply.
shareI think the question of the baby's eyes was there to show us how little he really cared for the childs mother. Remember, she asked him something, like 'how are you' or something, and he's like "fine, what colour is his eyes?". He doesn't care about her at all, but he loves his son to death.
shareNo, he has been taught to trust no one. We learn about eye color and genetics in school. The scene is meant to show us that he has doubts. Considering the way she descended on him, it makes sense to assume that she was already pregnant.
shareUmm.... Actually, it's a pretty common question - even though almost all babies have blue eyes when they are first born. He is showing interest in his new son
share"like that actually happens"
It does happen, apparently you have the impression that a girl cannot get pregnant on the first sexual encounter and that is incorrect.
The Brother is the one who got Brangelina Preg, blamed it on Jason Bourne, he dumped the mute, and they had a Problem Child. I knew we'd get this figured out together folks.
shareI had grave questions about the paternity of her son, as well. Wouldn't have been the first or last time an eligible young man got bagged by a single pregnant woman.
shareI agree. Although there is no proof. I watched the whole movie believing that she set him up.
shareAs you say, there's no proof, but it was my immediate assumption from what we saw that she was already pregnant by someone who perhaps wasn't in a position to marry her, and needed a patsy to become the baby's acknowledged father before she started to show. I thought there was something suspicious about the way she leaped on him so quickly, I think - she was no blushing virgin, that's for sure.
share[deleted]
Me too. I am even fairly sure, judging from the "conversation" she was forcing on him before she was forcing herself on him:
It went somewhat like this:
She: "What kind of husband are you going to be?"
He: "A perfect one."
She: "Do you love me? Say you love me!"
He [mightily turned on by now]: "I love you! I love you!"
Well, that's quick for knowing her all of one hour maybe!
I think, knowing her predicament, she turned to her brother for help and asked him to point out the most decent of his friends as a surrogate father for her illegitimate child.
I thought the whole getting-to-know sequence felt very rushed and forced - not by the filmmakers, mind, but storywise.
Brother and sister destroyed several lives in this deceit: Her's, his, Laura's, the son's and, ultimately, the fiancé's and her family's.
Some work!
_____________________________________________
Vala Morghulis
Yes a young woman in heat so to speak, is highly likely to get pregnant the first time she has sex with a particular man.
A woman is most likely to be sexually arroused when she is ovulating; in fact there is evidence that woman wear less clothing when ovulating.
I think we forget about this issue because of birth control and delayed marriages has resulted in many woman in their late 20s or early 30s struggling to get pregnant, but for teenagers a lot of them do get pregnant from as little as a single unprotected sexual experience... even not fully consumated sex such as withdraw before completion will lead to pregnancy if the woman is young and fertile.
The episode showed that Edward put carreer and social order (agency first, even before God) above all other considerations; love was not his motivation; he even had the woman he slept with in Germany killed because he suspected her of spying on him; did he have his son's wife killed? Possibly. Hes a cold bugger. A ghost.
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RIGOLETTO: I'm denied that common human right, to weep.
Actually, it does. I have a niece conceived from the very first time her mom ever had sex. She was stupid enough to believe you couldn't get pregnant your first time. And my poor brother had to marry the hateful bitch and had a miserable life with her.
shareI saw this movie yesterday and ended up with so many question marks that decided to read other people's views. I thought immediately his wife's son was not his. It is obvious she earmarked him from the beginning, picked him up and got him undressed and having sex, all in a hurry. Then her brother shows up claiming she is pregnant... is he (the brother) the father? Interesting someone else had the same impression... I wonder if reading the book could help with so many black holes in the movie...
shareI also agree with the last few posters that Angie already "had one in the oven" before she let Wilson have sex with her. No definitive reason however her conduct suggests that she was the subtle initiator.
No problem really, I can think of many worse fates than being forced to marry Angelina!
Was Edward not in love with the hearing impaired women, but actually Laura? (I am really enjoying this site!So excellent to find all my questions discussed)
shareI believe he was in love with Laura (who was deaf) although he does not show (or heeds) his feelings much....
sharelaura was his first love,on the beach? (and he met up with her much later and the photos were given to his wife.) The deaf woman,Hanna, was his assistant who was shot because Edward thought she was actually not deaf and using the hearing aid as a spying device(He whispered 'Hanna', and she sort of turned around, without the aid in her ear) I dont think her loved Hanna, it was just a lonely fling.
share"laura was his first love,on the beach?"
Yes; and she was profoundly deaf. She told him in the library she wasn't aware the pencil she was tapping was making a noise, and was having to lip-read what he said. (though in that case what was she doing at a concert, when she met up with Edward again? Was it a set-up? Or a continuity slip?)
And "The deaf woman,Hanna, was his assistant who was shot";
she said she was deaf in one ear, because of the bombing (in which case saying her name softly wasn't the best of tests, and having her shot on the strength of it is pretty harsh. So, never get into bed with the CIA!)
oops! Missed a bit of the beginning of the movie! Still need to watch it all again, my apologies!!
shareHmmmmm, I never thought about Clover already being pregnant. That seems likely. Interesting!
shareI had the fleeting suspicion Clover was already pregnant when she jumped on Edward. The fact that we cannot 'be sure' is yet another reason why "The Good Shepherd" is a first class film.
Vince, think back. In the film Clover's tells Edward when he returns from Europe that her brother John was killed in action in the war. But check out the deleted scenes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFQ2XlEl-Aw
There's a deleted minor subplot in which John returns home after the war, married to somebody named Irina. He'd been freed from a Japanese prison camp in China by the Russians. Later he's shown doing treacherous double agent work. In the first early deleted scenes on the YouTube link, observe how overly affectionate Clover and Jack are with each other. Something rather unwholesome there.
I'm not sure including those deleted scenes in a future 'director's cut' would improve The Good Shepherd but they probably wouldn't hurt. To me, Edward Jr. rather resembles Clover's brother. He certainly looks nothing like Edward.
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I sort of thought the same thing- remember when Edward was talking to Clover and she said "I'm supposed to be looking for the perfect husband" and then had sex with him? It sounds like she did that because she was pregnant. I mean unless my first time sucked how many girls were all rocking and ready to jump a guy's bones and be on top their first time?
To say it's the brother's kid though I think is a bit too much. I think she confided in the brother that she thought she might be pregnant and since him and Edward were good friends he wanted his sister to marry someone he trusted and knew was a good guy.
The deaf girl was the "plant". I think, if Clover was prego before she met Edward, he would have figured it out based on the length of pregnancy. Yet, he might not have been so loyal to his son if he knew it wasn't his?
It is no coincidence that the German interpreter-spy looked a little like the deaf girl and had the same handicap. Also no coincidence hat she shows up in the same theater makes a big effort to get Edward's attention and then takes him to a prepared room.
This amounts to much more evidence that the deaf girl was the plant rather than Clover being pregnant.
Keep it together, Keep it together, Keep it together, Keep it together!
I'm surprised no-one's mentioned that line "what colour are his eyes" (when asking about the eye colour of the child) to me that seemed a big clue that the son might not be his
shareThe eye color question has a lot of possible connotations. However, it is also a perfectly normal question for a new father to ask. I don't have the dvd, maybe someone could watch it to see the color of The parents' eyes... in case the kid's comes up different? It still would not prove anything...
The manor in which Jollie seduced him is very suspicious and fits the pattern of a girl "in trouble". The situation it puts Edward in and the way he handles it fits the pattern of "the good shepherd" and also fits into the pattern of not being able to trust your closest friends... not even your wife.
In the special features section of the dvd, there are deleted scenes showing that Jollie's brother (who introduced them) becomes a double agent.
I suppose, if there's a book... it should have more evidence?
I don't understand why nobody points out that that the Russians used a spy who had the same features and hadicap as Edward's first love... the deaf girl (Laura). Remember when Ulysses says, "We also do our homework"? This indicates that Laura was either described in some file that the Russians got their hands on... or Laura was a plant all along.
It was Laura who intitiates the 1st meeting in the library and again in the theater. She takes Edward back to a prepared room just like his son's girlfriend did. Laura was being used as an asset.. both times.
Keep it together, Keep it together, Keep it together, Keep it together!
It was Laura who intitiates the 1st meeting in the library and again in the theater. She takes Edward back to a prepared room just like his son's girlfriend did. Laura was being used as an asset.. both times.
I agree with you. The way she behaved showed she wasn't a virgin anymore. Either she was already pregnant and tried to set him up or she wanted to marry anyways and tried to get pregnant (successfully), both has happened before. Actually there's this third possibility: she wasn't pregnant at all but wanted to marry him. She could have lied and got later pregnant. Although I don't believe it was what the film wanted to tell us.
Did anyone cringe when she told him to say I love you? What was that about? She wasn't shy, huh?
For me it was decided when he returned home from his mission after years and she told him to sleep in a different room until they would know each other better. Sleeping with a stranger wasn't a problem the first time, was it? Even in a place where somebody could see them anytime.
I don't think that her brother and she had an incestuous relationship. They are just really close IMHO. If she was already pregnant I believe the brother knew though.
When Edward asked about the eye colour of the son, was it shortly after the birth? Because most caucasian kids have blue eyes, no matter what the parents' eye colour is, it changes some time later. In his case I'd worry if the boy got dark eyes in the end because Edward and Clover have light-coloured eyes (blue respectively green).
However, most babies who have European ancestry have light-colored eyes before the age of one. As the child develops, melanocytes (cells found within the iris of human eyes, as well as skin and hair follicles) slowly begin to produce melanin. Because melanocyte cells continually produce pigment, in theory eye color can be changed. Most eye changes happen when the infant is around one year old, although it can happen up to three years of age
It’s just so sad that the variety of the world should be used as a contentious issue.
wow. that's uhh....something.
Hey, sprechen sie talk?
Yes; and she was profoundly deaf. She told him in the library she wasn't aware the pencil she was tapping was making a noise, and was having to lip-read what he said. (though in that case what was she doing at a concert, when she met up with Edward again? Was it a set-up? Or a continuity slip?)
Angelina Jolie has the edge over a great many women, including the deaf woman in the film, whom I found to be a minor annoyance.
shareI'd hardly say she ruined his life. The match was an excellent choice vis a vis his social circle and his carreer. There is no suggestion that she was already pregnant, though that is a possibility. They son does look enough like him to me to suggest that he is his son. My take on it, is that she had her eye on the man, and knew that his social obligations would force him to marry her if she was pregnant, and she was right.
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RIGOLETTO: I'm denied that common human right, to weep.
[deleted]
Clover was a bit selfish but the rest of the movie shows she was a decent person.
The fact is, she loved Edward at first sight. She didn't have her brother target him. She wasn't pregnant. She just wanted a good looking guy with the world at his feet to go crazy for her.
She spent the rest of her life hoping for him to display any affection for her but he never did. During that argument he made it quite clear what kind of marriage it was to him and that broke her. The icing on top was the evidence of his infidelity. She also knew via the pictures, by Edward's body language alone that he was with the person he truly loved. There was always some hope in her, but those pictures ended it.