MovieChat Forums > Carnivàle (2003) Discussion > Some unresolved questions ...

Some unresolved questions ...


Somebody posted in another thread that the foreshadowing throughout the show pretty much cleared up most of the questions viewers might have had.
I disagree.

Anybody want to take a shot at these, which seem to me to be pretty major questions that were never answered?



What was the significance of the document that Scudder was so intent on getting/preserving?

In the final episodes, was Sophie serving Good or serving Evil? Or both?

Was Iris (Brother Justin's sister) trying to help Brother Justin (actually, the Demon who had taken over Brother Justin) or to defeat him?

What did Management mean when he said (something like) "Oh, how you tempt me!", referring to Ben?

Why was Management so evil-seeming if he was serving Good?

Was Lodz serving Good or serving Evil?

Why was Sophie's mother so scard of Sophie (or was it of Sophie's future)?
Did Sophie's mother really hate Sophie? And did she try to kill Sophie?

Did Ruthie recognize who/what Ben represented early on, and did she sleep with him to get some kind of power from him, or was she just a cougar in heat?

In the scene where Brother Justin held Sophie's hand for an uncomfortably long moment, gazing at her, was he recognizing that she was his daughter? Or was he lusting after her? Or both?

What happened to Rev. Norman? Was he just left to die? Or was he revived?

What had happened to Ben's grandmother? Why did she go mad? Where did she get her powers from?

What exactly was Brother Justin's and Iris' backstory - that is, from before the train crash?

What eventually happens between Sophie and Ben? Do they fight? Or do they love each other? (that whole nuclear blast foreshadowing -- what was that all about?)

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Somebody posted in another thread that the foreshadowing throughout the show pretty much cleared up most of the questions viewers might have had.
I disagree


The most apparent and important questions of the first chapter were answered with the conclusion of the first chapter (Season 1+2 are one of three "books"/chapters of the story).

A lot of other stuff wasn't answered.


Here are some answers to your questions:

In the final episodes, was Sophie serving Good or serving Evil? Or both?


That's just my opinion but she uses powers of both Avatars, Light and Dark. She is the Omega, the last of all Avatars and I guess she is really in the middle of the Light/Dark thing.
At the end of the show she shoots Jonesy and resurrects Justin.

Was Iris (Brother Justin's sister) trying to help Brother Justin (actually, the Demon who had taken over Brother Justin) or to defeat him?


She knew at least vaguely about Justins Power before Justin himself. She helped to bring his darker side to take over with burning the ministry and the children.
I haven't seen the show in quite some time now (when will it finally be released on Blu-ray???!!) but I remeber that the actions of Iris where a bit jumpy and it wasn't easy (or possible?) to say what she thought and wanted in later episodes of Season 2.
I remeber it, that she probably got afraid of the Avatar of Darkness aspects of Justin later on and that she tried to work against Justin.

In the planned but never realized later Seasons Justin would probably be rather weak cause of his injuries from the battle and Sophie and Iris are battling over the control over him. Iris probably wanted early on her way and was always willing to use Justin for it. Hence the burning of the ministry.

Why was Management so evil-seeming if he was serving Good?

Cause the destiny and the powers of light don't mean that the Avatars aren't personalities which are flawed. The Crippled state of Management will add to the darker aspects of his beiing.

Brother Justin refused to be evil in the beginning and he geniunely cared about the children who were opressed and the children which burned.

Was Lodz serving Good or serving Evil?


He wasn't flat out evil but he wanted power. He was a companion (he - as a seer and performance artist - discovered Scudders powers and helped him learn to use and control them) of Scudder and tried to take over his powers (Scudder didn't want his powers of Darkness at all and was fleeing from someone who apparently chased him - which gave him dark visions and dreams. Belyakov/Manangement was unlike Scudder aware of the histoy of Avatars and his poers and destiny. He did not know WHO was the current Avatar of Darkness though). It didn't work, he gained only a fraction of Scudders powers and lost his sight in the process.
Lodz joined Management (Belyakov) cause he knew he was seeking Scudder too and the transfer of power had formed a link between Lodz and Scudder. Lodz was the best in tracking Scudder.

Why was Sophie's mother so scard of Sophie (or was it of Sophie's future)? Did Sophie's mother really hate Sophie? And did she try to kill Sophie?


Sophies mother was raped by Justin and therefore mother of an Avatar (Sophie).
The fact that Sophie was concieved as a result of a rape does probably not help. More important is that the mothers of Avatars get mad from givign birth to one. Ben Hawkin's mother was mad as well as Henry Scudder's mother (Ben's grandmother).

Yes she tried to kill Sophie. Besides her madness she saw that Sophie was an Avatar (the only female one, usually it's always the firsdt born son of an Avatar) with extreme destructive powers.

Did Ruthie recognize who/what Ben represented early on, and did she sleep with him to get some kind of power from him, or was she just a cougar in heat?


I guess she was just attracted to him (and as far as I remeber the portrayal of there interactions, she liked him).
But I can't really remeber how it all played with Ruthie walking around as a ghost after her death. I am even not sure if it were just visions of Lodz or Ben and so on...

In the scene where Brother Justin held Sophie's hand for an uncomfortably long moment, gazing at her, was he recognizing that she was his daughter? Or was he lusting after her? Or both?


I do not remeber this particular scene but I do not think that Justin knew that Sophie was his dougther. He most likely was lusting after here.

What happened to Rev. Norman? Was he just left to die? Or was he revived?


I always remebered it that he just died. I think he is dead and wasn't resurrected.

What had happened to Ben's grandmother? Why did she go mad? Where did she get her powers from?


I do not remember any powers (maybe she thinks she knows or sees something because of her madness?) but she got made by giving birth to an Avatar (Scudder).

What exactly was Brother Justin's and Iris' backstory - that is, from before the train crash?


Justin and Iris are the children of Lucius Belyakov (Management, an Avatar of Light). Justin is therefore - as the first son - an Avatar. Their mother got mad during pregnancy.
Belyakov tried to kill Justin (probably cause he realized that Justin was an Avatar of Darkness). The mother took Justin and Iris and fled. She told Iris that she had to protect Justin from their evil father and that she should heklp Justin to fulfill his destiny as a leader of the people. She had delusions of a group of Assasins hired by her husband which will try to kill them.

Iris thought the train accident was caused by their "evil" father and thought the wounded man (another survivor) was one of the assasins. That's why she wanted that Justin kills this man.

What eventually happens between Sophie and Ben? Do they fight? Or do they love each other? (that whole nuclear blast foreshadowing -- what was that all about?)


What exactly happens we will probably never know.
But I guess Sophie as the Omega and first pregnant Avatar (we do not know for sure I it's Ben's child or Justin's but I guess it's Ben's) is an unknown/unpredictable element in the mythology of Carnivale.
In the first Prologue by Samson (Episode 1) he refers to the nuclear bomb test on the Trinity test side in 1945 as the end of of "magic" (the end of the Avatars). We see repeatedly that Ben and Sophie (and - my memory is fuzzy their - sometimes Justin) are there during the nuclear explosion in Trinity.
We see Ben and Sophie kissing while the bomb explodes. I guess that's part of the end of the Avatars (it was always clear that Sophie was the last one hence "The Omega"). We do not know the details.

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Here are some of your questions, answered to the best that I can remember. But I did learn a lot of the avatar side of the story.

There will be spoilers though...

What was the significance of the document that Scudder was so intent on getting/preserving?


I do not quite remember a document. What I do remember is that Scudder, Ben's father was the Creature of Darkness, the Usher. He didn't want to be that, and so he ran from his destiny. He in fact disfigures his face for no one to find him, however Ben does. And then the new Usher of Darkness... Alexi Belyakov's son.

This was not yet fully explained, however SPOILERS ahead.

In the final episodes, was Sophie serving Good or serving Evil? Or both?
To comprehend what she is, you must get the mythology behind Avatars (Hinduism), Avatars represent the manifestation of good and bad, the energy behind them. They are usually male, save for the Omega, the Omega is a female and has both good and bad, and encompasses all. As such, she is neither good nor bad, has both aspects in her, and has the power to end it all. As such, she is the Omega to the Alpha. Alpha would be the first Avatar, Omega the last.

Was Iris (Brother Justin's sister) trying to help Brother Justin (actually, the Demon who had taken over Brother Justin) or to defeat him?
At first she does help her brother because she sees his powers and thinks they are for the good. That they were given by God. And in her fanatical way, she kills and pushes them back into light. Eventually at the end, she realizes she was mistaken and she wanted to eliminate him. Which did not end up being the case.

What did Management mean when he said (something like) "Oh, how you tempt me!", referring to Ben?
If I remember correctly Management was old, and felt that his time was fading. His death would mean the complete pass of Being of Light to Ben. He probably was tempted to keep his powers. Then again somethings I forget.

Why was Management so evil-seeming if he was serving Good?
Because Management had been in a fight, and had paid dearly for it. Remember the Being of Light and Darkness are always in conflict.

Was Lodz serving Good or serving Evil?
He was into his personal gain. He was evil but not at the same capacity of the Avatar of Darkness. He had been with Scudder (well used him) to get his seeing power and lost his real eyesight for it. As such, what he wanted from Ben was to get any portion of his powers.

Why was Sophie's mother so scard of Sophie (or was it of Sophie's future)?
Did Sophie's mother really hate Sophie? And did she try to kill Sophie?
Sofie's mother as a tarot reader saw things. She had been raped by Justin earlier on, and had given birth to the Omega. She knew the level of power her daughter had, and had used all of what she could to stop her daughter from knowing it. By the way, the real power, the real tarot reader was Sofie.

Did Ruthie recognize who/what Ben represented early on, and did she sleep with him to get some kind of power from him, or was she just a cougar in heat?
She was an older woman that realized he was someone that was broken. As such she took him under her wings. And eventually, she had an affair with him because she grew to like him.

In the scene where Brother Justin held Sophie's hand for an uncomfortably long moment, gazing at her, was he recognizing that she was his daughter? Or was he lusting after her? Or both?
I think it was a combination of both. His lust, his attraction was the familiarity of the situation. That he subconsciously realized that she might be connected to him.

What happened to Rev. Norman? Was he just left to die? Or was he revived?
Dead

What had happened to Ben's grandmother? Why did she go mad? Where did she get her powers from?
His grandmother gave birth to an Avatar, she went mad due to it. She had absolutely no powers. Then again, the whole family were a bunch of nutcases.

What exactly was Brother Justin's and Iris' backstory - that is, from before the train crash?
Brother Justin and Iris were the children of the Management. The Management upon hearing that his son would be the next Avatar of Darkness, tried to kill him as a child. The mother sent them away unaware of the truth and in an accident. Someone tried to kill the kids in a train if I remember, and Justin killed them. His sister however was always advised to protect him from the malevolent father, whom was in fact the belevolent father that wanted to right the world.

What eventually happens between Sophie and Ben? Do they fight? Or do they love each other? (that whole nuclear blast foreshadowing -- what was that all about?)
They love each other. They are however unaware of what they signify to the greater sense of the Avatar mystical truth. Therefore, in the course of the show, they would have eventually been reacquainted. Keep in mind, Sofie is pregnant with his child. And she would be in charge of Justin, with Iris. Both fighting for their control of the household and the people. Ben would become the new Management, hidden behind the curtain, as he was maimed. And as such they would travel through Europe and find more information on Avatars. I'll close with Samson:


"Samson: Before the beginning, after the great war between Heaven and Hell, God created the Earth and gave dominion over it to the crafty ape he called man. And to each generation was born a creature of light and a creature of darkness. And great armies clashed by night in the ancient war between good and evil. There was magic then, nobility, and unimaginable cruelty. And so it was until the day that a false sun exploded over Trinity, and man forever traded away wonder for reason."

The False Sun.. Nuclear Bomb
Trinity... The first Detonation of a Nuclear Test in July 16, 1945.

In other words. They all sacrifice themselves, and their child or the child, for the good of humanity. And as such, the ending of Carnivale would have been that human kind changed from the mysticism of religion to science and reason.


Quit ya moanin

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[quote]In other words. They all sacrifice themselves, and their child or the child, for the good of humanity. And as such, the ending of Carnivale would have been that human kind changed from the mysticism of religion to science and reason.[quote]

Cause Season 2 of Carnivale ended in 1935 and we know that the nuclear test in trinity was in 1945 she can't be (still) pregnant.

We simply do not know what becomes of her child in the 10 years in between.
But we can be pretty sure that a child from Sophie wouldn't be an Avatar - even if the father was Justin or Ben.

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That's what the creator hasn't really said however if I remember correctly each 2 season arch was five years forward. Therefore, the third "book" aka season 5 and 6 would have been during the Trinity Testing, actually prior to it.

It's to be understood that she wouldn't be pregnant either.

I just simply said what the final, final outcome would become. After all of the shows. That is of course if the show had been only for six seasons. We must remember that a lot of creators have an idea and then, because of the fame and popularity, they move to elongate it as well. And then, at that time, things change.


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Where are you getting these answers from?

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