so what happened to the girlfriend (rampling). one moment he kills the rapist, then next it ends with him driving off alone, and the last you saw of the gf was she was being held hostage by the killer. he told her he was going to pick her up. so what's the deal?
well it seems the film is leaving it to the viewer, and i cant come up with any satisfactory explanations.
any theories?
Hello there! I agree with you. The ending leaves you guessing. I think it does so on purpose. There are those who might think that the film's message is fatalistic. That for Will to avenge his own brother's death, he will most certainly die himself by showing himself as "back in the game" sort of speak. And, therefore, the girlfriend being held hostage, in wait for Will to come to her..shows that Will is probably driving to his death, if he indeed is on his way to pick her up at the end, as his car drives down the road.
I, however, feel that although the film is dark and marose. It's real theme, is in Will choosing to be who He is(a clever criminal), and in doing so, reclaiming his life...whatever life it was or maybe...no longer feeling the crippling guilt of who he is. I think the whole film is Will emerging from the coccoon he has placed himself in over the past three years. For whatever reason, he left his old life. It's implied because of guilt/ an emotional break-down of sorts, who knows.( a prequel would be fun to see) But, with the death of his brother, his journey back to london begins, and his journey back to his life begins. And, as he investigates, observes, and plots his revenge, he is intelligent enough to realize that he never stopped being "that killer" in exile, he just disappeared for awhile, but the rage was always there...
Will knows that these other fellas will be lookin' for him. I do not think that he is so blinded by revenge that he hasn't plotted how to get rid of the others. If I were to add my own extended ending, I would say that Will has more than a hunch someone is waiting for him at his girlfriend's house, perhaps he knows they tapped her line, so the call to her flat was a set-up. I just think Will is too shrewd to make any mistakes, although they don't show it, I think his old gang has been advised of their duties, etc.
The drive at the end, is Will driving to his destiny, (since I'm an optimist)I believe the one he has expertly plotted. This time around, however, he is even harder, having reasoned his choices thoughtfully, and realizing that this is who he is, despite his conscience...whatever his life now holds, he has no illusions of what if...he just accepts things in all their grimmest forms.
Gosh this is long, but I really like the film!
P.S I thought the actress playing the girlfriend was too old. I mean she looked 60! I thought it was his mom at first. I mean, he can date an older woman...heck I saw Kim Basinger in the Door in the Floor and she's fifty and fantastic, but Clive is too young for this woman in the film. Not to mention, that I didn't feel any real connection between her and Will...in my opinion..their referenced relationship doesn't work. However, it could have with a better actress! Just my opinion...(smile)
interesting way to look at it. i agree about rampling. in fact she is 59. did they mean her to be that old looking? there was one part where he was talking to her about why he left and he said something about "that wasn't the reason" but he didn't ever say the exact reason. i wonder if it had to do with his brother, not wanting him to follow in his footsteps. and so that could add to your theory. now that his brother was dead, he didn't have that to stop him from returning to his former world. thanks.
share"Did they mean her to be that old looking?" Good question. Perhaps, Mike Hodges has some sort of relationship in his private life with Rampling and chose to cast her despite the fact that she does not fit. However, perhaps we are to conclude that Will was with an older woman for varying reasons. One that comes to mind is that Will despite the fact that he is a criminal, is an intelligent/thoughtful person, he probably is intersted , to his credit, in someone more sophisticated, less girly. Someone mature enough to deal with who he is and not have any expectations of family and committment. That would come with a woman who is older.
One other thing that I didn't like about the Rampling character, is she seemed rather selfish. I don't know if she cared whether or not Will had a break-down or not. He left her and damn everything else. She was always so sullen, unwilling to help. Trapped in her own saddness, I guess.
Will said that the reason he was hiding himself away was grief, he was grieving for his life wasted, presumably as a criminal, saw no redeeming factors in his life. This movie felt like a letdown, but after reading the other postings, perhaps i was missing something. i like clive owen and was expecting a different sort of movie.
"Im your huckleberry..."
I thought too that the ending was too abrupt and left too many loose ends. Is the director planning a sequel? Whatever happened to the guys in the car? Did they work with Boad? If so, when did they talk to one another? Also, I agree that leaving the girlfriend with the gangster on the stairs was very odd.
I disagree that Charlotte Rampling was too old. Viewers are too used to seeing men with younger women. That's changing. In fact, though, she looked to me to be about his age. She was "preppier" because she had a different lifestyle.
DRC
I agree that the ending was abrupt, we needed more time to resolve some things. The film takes so much time revealing what it is about, we should be allowed a few more minutes of resolution.
And, If I were Will, those two men that helped Boad are just as guilty, you got to wonder what happened with them.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the Rampling character. She does look 60, and Will looks 40, that 20 years.
However, I agree that we need to see more men with older women in films. Rampling looks alot better at her age that Al Pacino or Deniro, and I probably wouldn't think twice about the age difference if it were an older man with a younger woman. And, that's a bias that movies have instilled in me.
Do you guys think that Will goes to his girlfriend? do you think he is going to his death?
Also, I'm surprised the Rampling character is willing to go with Will at all. They don't explain that. One thing with the film, is I was trying to remember the lighting when Will called her, and when she was waiting. A time reference. Cause he said three hours. I think it was longer than three hours. Any thoughts?
I thought that Irish guy killed the lady and Will drove off to lead whatever life he was seeking(non gangster). I must have completely phased out or didn't understand the Brit talk - but overlooked the g/f part, I thought she was the mom.......
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Yes, I don't think we arent justified in believing this was his mother, I thought this until the end when he called her and told her to pack her bag- I was like "What, he's taking his mother with him?". I felt no romantic quality in these two people at all. However, Clive Owen is married and I read somewhere he doesnt like love scenes at all- it's against his nature or something, so if he doesnt jell with anyone (like A. Jolie in Beyond Borders)then that is why.
I was a little dissapointed by the ending here. So many questions left open:
1) Why did he call and tell her to pack her bag, and then we see her leaning against the stairs- it looked like he had killed her already, she had a blank dead stare.
2) Why did they want to kill her anyway, or where they just using her to get to Will?
3) Why did Boad really rape the brother? I don't buy his answer that he was watching him. Does he rape everyone he doesnt like who acts cocky? Why no have him involved with the gangsters somehow- using this as a way to get Will to come home? Just some random act of buggary doesnt cut it for me.
I really liked this movie- I just thought we needed more character development. Charlotte Rampling was horribly miscast since 3/4ths of us didnt even know she was his girlfriend, but if there had been more character dev. we would have known that.
1) Why did he call and tell her to pack her bag, and then we see her leaning against the stairs- it looked like he had killed her already, she had a blank dead stare.
2) Why did they want to kill her anyway, or where they just using her to get to Will?
3) Why did Boad really rape the brother? I don't buy his answer that he was watching him. Does he rape everyone he doesnt like who acts cocky? Why no have him involved with the gangsters somehow- using this as a way to get Will to come home? Just some random act of buggary doesnt cut it for me.
Okay, for 1 and 2, I think they were using her to get to him, but he decided not to run away from his life, and rather, go for it. He made the original call to her when he was undecided. In the end, because he is choosing to go back, it's likely that the Irish killer will give up because Will never shows up to get her and go back to seclusion.
As for 3, I think the point everyone is missing here is that the guy was sincerely a rapist. He was just a guy who liked to pick his victims and then dominate them. He had nothing to do with Frank. He was just a guy. You are led to believe that they are connected throughout the movie only because Will thinks they are connected. But Frank's fascination with killing Will and Will's obsession with killing Boad are mere coincidences.
It all goes back to the scene where Will gets the psychiatrist to describe the pschye of the rapist. It leaves you thinking, well, we know that isn't the way it went down, the guy wasn't really JUST a rapist. But then in the end, you find out, he is.
I think there are several clues in the film:
1. He calls his girlfriend in the evening - it is dark outside, but she is still dressed - so probably between 9 and 12 midnight.
2. His girlfriend is still sitting on the stairs the next morning - it is light outside and the sound of young children is heard - probably on their way to school, so approximately 8am the next morning. (i.e. more than 3 hours after the call).
It is therefore clear that he did not go to pick up his girlfriend, but probably abandoned her to her fate - probably as revenge for her abandoning him and not looking after his brother. Telling her 3 hours would both encourage her to open the door when (the Irish guy) came knocking and leave her hanging on in hope, more revenge. The girlfriend clearly grassed on him, as both her and the Irish guy were sat waiting for him to arrive at the door.
Incidentally, the girlfriend is still alive in the morning, she can clearly be seen to be breathing.
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What I got from the two (Owen and Rampling) was that in his character's three years of exile they have grown cold, equally from the side of his surely faded memory to her now detached feeling, which probably developed over time. Someone on another strand of this movie's board suggested the possibility of her being the mother. I don't buy that based on the language used in the scene where Owen calls to inform her of departure time. Lastly, in the scene where she confronts him in his van (parked under a bridge in a seedy area) is played with restraint on the part of Rampling yet tells, if only in her face, of past affection.
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After all those ideas and all that reading I have to agree
with you. You look at the lack of character development,
and the lack of plot and relationships, this movie was just
about the rape of a man.
It went no where, it was almost all male, there were no sexy
women in this movie anywhere to be found, even at the parties
the women were portrayed plain.
I think this was a movie to make men think about what it is
like for women to be raped. That is what this movie leaves
in your lap when you notice the absence of anything else but
a kind of macho ganster style.
I still have questions about it, like why did it start with
the golfing at the beach, and what did the guy getting beat
up in the beginning have to do with anything?
I personally think Rampling's character died long ago every emotion stolen from her as you can see all the way through the movie. The only time she really shows emotion is when she is confronted with what happened to Davey which she feels responsible for due to the lack of emotion she has in her current state. But literally I think she is alive waiting on the stairs in her coldness...she was excited about leaving with Will but once again the crime filled way of life has impeded on her and so she shut down again not knowing and really not caring what happens next.
I like the idea of Will blaming her for his brother's death and getting revenge by not coming which ties into the fact that I think we were suppose to get the feeling that Rampling was the mother in a figurative sense. That maybe he was hoping that she would take care of Davey when he was away cause it seemed that Will nor Davey had any family of their own.
I think the possiblities of what really happened are endless. Maybe he knew and set it all up, maybe he didnt know and was walking into his doom, maybe by the end of the movie he already killed the guy and Rampling was dead, maybe he just drove away back to his Walden...(btw he was very scared to return to the city and back to his life, Will vomitted when he first entered the city).
What I think happened is this: He was planning to run away with Rampling but during the confrontation with Broad he was forced into a "Carlito's Way" choice. He wasnt planning on killing him but the instinct clicked in and he choose to kill him unlike Carlito cause he knew it would come back to get him in the end. So he choose the life of crime again and he knew that he couldnt run away with Rampling now so I doubt he was planning to return to her and pick her up which would have lead to his doom. So his choice of crime saved his life...for now.
My boyfriend and I just got done watching this. We kinda looked at eachother thinking "and...?". Trust me, I watch tons of movies with endings open to interpretation and enjoy the conversations that can be had from them.
However, with so much still in the air, I kinda had to wonder on this one. I too thought Turner and Boad were in on it together but I guess not. Rampling's character, like everyone else, I thought was his mother. Ooops. Looks like we ALL missed that memo :P
However, to be honest, I've still gotta wonder if Davey honestly killed himself. He came in at 5am as the older lady was leaving for work. Perhaps someone saw something I missed, I'm not sure. With her gone all day, couldn't it have been possible for someone to go in there and slit his throat themselves? Though I suppose there might've been evidence of a struggle. But he was acting funny when he left the alleyway. He could've been given a sedative of sorts. Though the way Boad speaks in the end, I'm not sure he wanted death. He just wanted to humiliate the boy.
Also, yeah, the ending left me pretty speechless. I do think Rampling's character was still alive. It seemed her and the killer were pretty annoyed that they were both still waiting. I would be if I were either of them. Also, you've got to wonder if Will's intentions to pick Rampling up were honest ones. We're never given a thumbs up or down as to what kind of person he is. I mean c'mon, he killed Boad's dog! That's just mean. One could say Will was ultimately killed though I don't think anyone but the director would ever really know.
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The first time I watched the movie I thought Charlotte's character was Will & David's mom too...basically because of her age and coldness toward the characters. I thought she was a bitter mom, disappointed in the way her sons turned out and wanted nothing to do with them. But I watched it again with better audio and picture and I could see that "Helen" is clearly Will's love interest from 3 years ago. Maybe they just wanted to cast "outside the box" or use her name to add interest to the film...whatever reason, I don't think she pulled it off as believable playing Will's girl. If she were Davy's mother she would have been the one making his funeral arrangements and the one in his apartment packing his stuff, not the land lady and best friend. The best friend also talks about how after Will left, Davy had no family...no one.
sharei think it's pretty simple: clive owen says he's in town to avenge jon rhys meier's death, and nothing else. so he does that, and he leaves. the movie teases us with the possibility that he'll get into a gang war or be reunited with his estranged wife (at least, i think that's who she is) or something, but it just doesn't happen. he does what he came to do, and he leaves.
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Wow, am I the only one the thinks Will drove off to his death? I thought it was completely obvious, and didn't regard it as "open-ended" at all. Unless you call Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid open-ended because they don't show them getting shot to ribbons. We don't see Will get shot, because the writer is assuming the intelligence of the audience in figuring it out. He's done, folks. Will go bye-bye.
To wit:
Mickser: Turner wants him gone, you know. I told him to bury Davey then f- off back where he came from.
Helen: He can't now, can he?
Mickser: Not really, no.
They all see that he's doomed. Even the therapist sees it. He says. "Go to the police. Let them handle it. Please". He says 'please' at the end of that dialogue, because he realises he is dealing with a doomed man. He is pleading with him to not do what he knows he will do. So does Helen. She is especially keen to this fact. She makes a final desparate plea for him:
Helen: Go to the police Will. Don't do anything. Go to the police.... Get out. Go. Tonight. Leave the city. Go back to where you can breathe. If you stay, it'll destroy you. You know that.
This is not-so-subtle foreshadowing. Cue music, duh, duh, duh... guess what ... he's gonna stay, and he's gonna die. When a writer says "You know that" and there is no response, this means that yes, he does know that. It just so happens that his life is not very important to him at the moment... hence, the "wasted life" speech. Or at least his life is of secondary importance to avenging his brother.
Will too, knows he's doomed. "I am going to kill you. I am going to kill you. Not now. Not tonight. That would be too easy. Maybe next week. Next month. Think about it. One day... one night... I'll be there." But as he's walking away he stops and has a revelation. He thinks about his own words. Of course, he realizes, one day one night, I WON’T be there. Therefore, he turns right back around and finishes what he had set out to do. His last act. We hear a gunshot right as the edit cuts to Helen and the killer.
We see Will's killer sitting on the stairs, gun ready. Helen is in the foreground, and she sighs (yes, she's still alive, watch it again) and stares blankly. The next shot shows us what she's staring at. The door. A LONG shot of the door. Are we supposed to be admiring the architecture? Its not just a random shot. Its a long shot because the door is significant. It is the door he will come through and she is waiting for it. Will is supposed to come through that door any minute to pick her up. She isn't looking anxiously at the door, and she doesn't look worried for herself. She is resigned because inevitability is taking its course. She sighs because she knows she's right. She's about to watch Will be destroyed.
We have no reason to believe Will has plans to go off and live happily in the woods or anything like that. We know he has one plan. To pick up Helen up in three hours and they are going to leave the city together. He is emphatic on this point. She starts to argue "Just like that?" And the response is "Yes, just like that." End of argument. Nothing is left open, he is coming to pick her up. Which means he is coming to his own execution.
And finally, if that weren't evidence enough... the voiceover at the end, as we see him get into his car and drive off, is significant. Its not just fluff or filler, and it’s not just Will being sad about Davey. Listen to it again, watch what the camera does. Listen to the tone, think of the ‘wasted life’ theme…
“The dead are dead. He’s gone.” (as HE walks off the screen, dissapearing into the grass in the foreground.)
“What is left to say that he was ever here at all? Not much.” (as we look at an empty screen, where ‘he’, Will, had just been standing, and then the music cues in, as we watch him drive off to his fate, fade to black).
When all of the dialog centers around the death of the main character, all of the characters believe it, including himself, all of the themes are about a wasted life and inevitability and finally when we are left with a killer holding a gun, an unopened door, and a protagonist who is waxing philosopihcal about death… Folks, we don’t have to see his brains splattered on the wall and the smoke from the tip of the gun to know what happens next.
she's dead. and will is going to pick her up and will be dead also. he was killing time at the beach until it was time to pick her up. the man came in and shot her and waited for will. her eyes didn't blink.
No, she's not dead. You're right about her not blinking, but she's clearly breathing.
I'm starting to lean toward the "he's driving to her, and to his doom" theory, but I still can't get past the fact that he does tell Helen that he'll pick her up in three hours, then kills Boad at night, and then is seen in the morning hours - alone. It's certainly been more than three hours. And he's out in the country already. Maybe he did ditch everyone.
Not only does it look like more than three hours, he is a long way from London. The film is very accurate about its locations and distances(trust me, I live a stone's throw from the Brixton locations) and three hours would never be enough time to leave London and get back. He has lost his ties to home and is leaving for another new life.
Not a great movie all in all, just plays on going against as many standard gangster movie conventions as possible
i thought it was a cool movie, and y'know just good.
i would inyterpret the ending as he chooses his life of crime and is about to be slain by the cousin from n. ireland because of it.
the only problem i have with the ending is there isn't really a causal relationship between his inevitable doom and his decision to kill the car salesman. that series of events was put into place by his ex-cohorts and was already going to happen when he killed the car salesman.
This is what happened, it seemed kinda obvious to me. She didn't want him back. She was upset he was back in town. She has a successful restaurant, and the mob can't leave Will alone. The last conversation they had (before the phone call) she stormed out of his van.
But, Will knew he would be followed, and they were watching her too. So he called her house, told her he would be round in 3 hours. Notice what she says, "So thats it then?" She knew she would never see him again.
Later, you see her waiting with the mob guy. Will is never coming, but it kept the Irish guy busy until he could do his deed, and get out of town.
The only thing they left open was would the guy kill her?
{I took a hammer and two nails to my eardrums long ago}
JesX has it pegged. Will got the time he needed to kill Boad, and Rampling was either taken hostage or was in on the whole thing in some way. on top of that, she was not dead, if you slow motion the final shots, you'll see that she is indeed breathing. Either way, he wasn't "killing time at the beach". He was Preparing to leave for good, which he did.
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