So this was a Sgj Maj talking to Lieutenants and Captains, is it not gross insubordination to throw threats at superior officers. One thing that bothers me is when Hal Moore says he answers to me and me alone but that's not his call. I know Plumley commands immense respect but the chain of command is still there for a reason.
Awe Skinny, you got blood all over my trousers!
Jeez I'm real sorry Frank.
"So this was a Sgj Maj talking to Lieutenants and Captains, is it not gross insubordination to throw threats at superior officers. One thing that bothers me is when Hal Moore says he answers to me and me alone but that's not his call. I know Plumley commands immense respect but the chain of command is still there for a reason."
Mike, somebody like Plumley(Who served in WW2 AND Korea AND Made every combat jump the 82AB made) has LOTS of prestige in the Army---VERY competent VERY senior NCOs have a LOT of leeway in how they can speak to others...especially since the Lieutenants & Captains have NOT seen combat....
nm
I understand that but an NCO is still an NCO an I'm not sure I agree with your point that they have leeway by way of prestige, he probably commanded the respect of Officers on a personal level but I find it hard to believe a Commissioned Officer would not have been permitted to pull rank. First Seargents In Vietnam while effectively in command having served 5 tours would surley never have been allowed use threatening language towards a new inexperienced Lt.
Awe Skinny, you got blood all over my trousers!
Jeez I'm real sorry Frank.
Mike:
I think we better leave that question to the persons who actually served in the Military...there's got to be a few on IMDB who are even from 'back in the day'...
NM
I think we better leave that question to the persons who actually served in the Military
Mikey:
JUST to issue of the 'probability/likelyhood' of a SENIOR NCO getting 'lippy' with an Officer;
NM
[deleted]
"In our military, it is custom by law to always salute a man who receives the Medal of Honor REGARDLESS of rank."
Sierra, hang on are you saying Plumley had the MoH? Or is that just an example of Military custom of extending appropriate courtesy REGARDLESS of rank?
NM
In one of the deleted scenes the men are talking about Plumley and mention one of his subordinates having won two MoH medals but I don't remember the movie stating if Plumley had one.
Awe Skinny, you got blood all over my trousers!
Jeez I'm real sorry Frank.
Mikey:
Ah yes...the 'Nekkid Guy'...
NM
As a side point it was a pretty good scene and would seem to confirm your point Nick I was just wondering if what Plumley SAID was pushing the boundaries of due respect. Which brings me to another point whch I was going to start elsewhere but here is as good as any. I know battlefield commissions were an occurance in WWII but I wonder what the criteria was as:
1)Why didn't folks like Plumley receive one
2)Why has it not happened in post WW engagements.
Awe Skinny, you got blood all over my trousers!
Jeez I'm real sorry Frank.
Mikey:
I think we can call it the 'curmudgeon factor'!
LOL!
NM
I think some of you are missing the thrust...Plumly is not being 100% serious. A man of his position has a lot of status...in the Commonwealth armies we call him the Regimental Sergeant Major. He is the most senior non-officer in a battalion or regiment. He is the personal advisor to the CO (Colonel) on all matters pertaining to the men and discipline. Yes, he technically is out-ranked by all the officers, but, still commands a lot of respect. RSMs don't speak down to officers nor can they give them orders. However, if the RSM offers "fatherly advice" the young officer usually listens. Woe betide the young 2Lt who tries to pull rank on an RSM.
Anyway, besides being extremely experienced, many RSMs (in my army anyway) tend to be very colourful characters. Plumly is definitely that. Keep in mind that he is the only non-officer present (aside from the signallers who, I believe, are out of earshot-like the CO). If there were soldiers around, he would salute an play the role of the consumate pro that he is in the interests of good discipline and setting the example for the troops. In this case, he's alone with the officers and can make a colourful comment.
Actually, in the Canadian Army, an RSM wears officer accoutrements (officer capbadge, sword sash and sword on parade) and is an honorary member of the Officers' Mess.
Check out Richard Attenborough as RSM in The Guns At Batasi. Great.
These answers are amazing me.
No Sergeant Major/RSM would ever speak to a group of Officers like that. SM's are the smartest people in the army, they're the top of the soldiers. They've survived through the attrition and know the game.
SM's and Lt's don't get into power struggles as both know where to tow the line. SM's still salute and call an Lt. Sir, not because of the Lt's experience, but what's on his shoulders. The commission is saluted, not the man.
Completely unrealistic and so was the scene before where all the O's stand to attention.
I've got a military background as an Officer and those scenes really irritated me.
That's kinda what I figured. The show Generation Kill has a SM who seems to like shouting the odds but shows proper respect to new Lts by expression even if it is with a little scorn behind the voice.
Awe Skinny, you got blood all over my trousers!
Jeez I'm real sorry Frank.
nameisavailable; What kind of officer were you? A NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICER or a career 2LT? How much time have you actually spent on active duty? How many CSM's or SM's do you personally know or have worked with on a daily basis? As a former CSM, current field grade officer, former Battalion Commander and a combat vet, I find this scene was VERY realistic, given the man that spoke the line. If "so was the scene before where all the O's stand to attention" refered to when Plumley called everyone to attention in the hanger, that was because the BN Commander was about to enter the room. And that was the proper thing to do, because the officer he was calling the group to attention for outranked them all. And Plumley's "Grandpa" statement was not meant as a threat but in jest.
shareI was a commissioned Officer, who made his way up the O ranks. As a 2LT, I never received orders or commands from a CSM. If I made a call that the CSM disagreed with (which happened on a few occasions), I'd quietly recieve a "Sir, I believe ...".
About the first example, I'd expect a warning that the CO is coming. Rather than a direct command to stand to attention and every O jumping to attention. I'll probably have to watch for the exact dynamics in this scene again.
As for the SOB comment. If a statement like that was made in jest, the O's would laugh rather than glare at Plumley. SM's are probably the toughest and smartest people in the army, at least on an operational level and they know where to tow the line, especially with Junior O's. I'd expect actions like his coming from a Corporal testing the waters with individual O's, rather than an SM to a group of O's.
nameisavailable; How far did you get in grade? I'm still in and climbing. The scene in question is Plumley calling the officers to attention for a formation. Anyone, regardless of rank, can call a formation to attention. They were apparently called there for the Battalion Commander and were expecting him to arrive. As an officer, did you ever go thru, for example, Air Assault school, or Airborne school? They are run primarally by NCO's, and they do give orders to officers attending that school. If you remember your oath, you agree to follow orders of all "APPOINTED" over you. That could be either a higher ranking officer or an NCO for training. When i was a Drill Sergeant at the Infantry School we had, to some degree, authority over newly commissioned officers the we were training for Infantry Branch qualification. And they were required to follow our orders. You may want to look thru the UCMJ for more clairification tho. I currently have 27+ years military experience, both as an enlisted man and as an officer, so i've seen both sides of the coin.
shareword! i am just going to back you that when a superior officer enters, anyone (in fact the first person to witness their presence) calls the troop/company/room to attention, regardless of rank.
i may have only made it to specialist rank, but i pulled enough 24hour duties to know what is done and what has to be done.
and as far as a Sergeant Major telling LT's and CPT's he'd kill any of them for calling him grandpa isn't insubordination, even if one of them went to COL Moore, which is the one they would have to go to for complaints and such, would probably just laugh at them.
While he 'technically' may have been 'outranked' by a lt, or a captain, as a Command Sergeant Major, in the chain of command he answered *only to LT Col Moore*. (And Moore's superiors) Col Moore didn't just say that, that's how it is.
In 1965, the grade of "Command" Sergeant Major did not exist.
Plumley was one of the senior Sergeants-Major in the Army. He and Moore served together as Sergeant-Major and Commander for over two years at Fort Benning and in Vietnam.
Plumley made all four combat jumps with the 82nd Airborne in World War II and one in Korea. One of a handful of living men to receive three awards of the Combat Infantryman's Badge, the list of his awards and decorations, starting with two Silver Stars, fill half a page - typed single space.
When the Department of the Army created the rank of Command Sergeant Major, the first promotion board reviewed the eligible population of Sergeants Major in three increments with a promotion list being published at the conclusion of each increment. CSM Plumley was on the promotion list published at the conclusion of the third increment and promoted 1968.
To this day, there are veterans of the 1/7 CAV who are convinced that God may look like CSM Plumley, but HE is not nearly as tough as the Sergeant Major on sins small or large.
So to answer your question, yes. He would have been able to talk to a lt. like that, and get away with it. It's not really insubordination, it was his, no s**t, way of saying respect goes both ways. He was telling the new guys, that respect comes from experience.
just so you know: i'm a sergeant in the army reserves.
Plumley was a Command Sargent Major. that's very high on the NCO rank structure equal to what the LT COL is, just an NCO.
any butter bar that dared to lip off to him, probably would've gotten a verbal bashing. no matter the enlisted and officer difference, the SGT MAJ is a hard assed old timer and if i was a butter bar i'd listen to everything he had to say.
to call a fresh faced 2nd LT a "superior officer" is a mistake. they are just officers. if you think about it, an E3 (PFC) probably has more time in service than a 2nd LT and has been promoted twice more (if the E3 came in as an E1).
If you are what you say are I'll have to take you at your word. My research as an ordinary civilian doesn't indicate that SM is in any way equal to a LT COL in fact isn't that 2 ranks short of a General???.
Awe Skinny, you got blood all over my trousers!
Jeez I'm real sorry Frank.
It's a very hard thing to explain.
There's no equivalency between the two, but both command high levels of respect from Officers and Enlisted men. An SM may call a 2LT, fresh out of college "Sir" and even be outranked by him, however that doesn't accurately reflect the true dynamic between the two.
If you start a new job where you're managing an expert in his field with 35 years experience and you're fresh out of college. He clearly knows the job better than you, but the hope probably is that you'll learn a lot from him and work together complementing each others skills.
Again, very hard to explain but equivalency is the wrong way to think about it.
I was in the Army for 10 years and I've seen quite a few senior NCO's disrespect new Officers (butterbars). Rank is one thing, but seniority/experience is another. Are you telling me a Sergeant Major with 500 jumps, 2 combat patches and 26 years in the service is going to "respect" a 22 year-old peach-fuzzed, baby-faced lieutenant that just came out of Officer Candidate School? I doubt he could find another officer who he could to complain to! What's he gonna do, put the SGM at parade rest while he chews him out? No Commander would back the LT up, where I'm from. He'd tell the LT to earn the SGM's respect. Most Officers know this already and don't push the issue.
JD
Army Airborne
Ft. Bragg, NC
Iraq Vet
Yep, any good company or battalion commander, if presented with a green Lt. who had a problem with the battalion CSM, would instantly realize that the Lt. had firked up. The CO would try as much as reasonable to save face for the Lt., but not at the cost of damaging the prestige and credibility of the CSM. There are several thousand new butter-bars every year, but a Command Sergeant Major is a proven soldier of quality, experience, judgement, wisdom and knowledge, and as such, is not to be casually cast aside.
shareWhen I was in ROTC we had a pair of master sergeants who would pull these kind of stunts on the brand new lieutenants who were waiting in the ROTC office for their first assignments. That kind of talk does happen when it involves senior NCOs.
"Oh, *beep*! I picked a cute one!" --Penguin, "Batman Returns"
[deleted]
The Vietnam War was a different time.
Noncoms were notorious for Gross Insubordination that was respected by Officers during that war. A lot of them that could have (and probably should have) been promoted because of their experience to Officers weren't because of College grads and OCS guys who came in. The NCO's kept the grunts and those Officers alive, and everyone knew it.
Not all Officers were bad. Just those that were stuck out.
There's a mad man in there with his hand on a...on a BUTTON!
A command Sgt Maj is the senior enlisted for a command and only answers to the CO. As a Sgt Maj he would generally not threaten junior officers but it the job of senior enlisted to train the junior officers. In combat units you will see much more gruff training than in garrison. In combat a SNCO or NCO says jump you jump.
shareYou know since I started this thread I read somewhere that SEAL recruits even if officers answer to the drill SGT. If so your point is well made and I was wrong LOL.
Your's sincerely, General Joseph Liebgott
More to the point (and I don't recall the situation very clearly) that if it was JUST a bunch of lower grade officers, the CO and the Sgt Maj, then it would pretty much be 'unofficial'.
Now, if he started going off (which he never would - he woudln't have got to the rank in the first place if he did) then that's one thing, but he wasn't literally calling them sons of bitches... it was just his way of speaking.
SpiltPersonality
In Special Forces units, a Spec Ops Team would typically answer to one person, typically a General. General Tommy Franks(4 Star) is an example. Spec Ops Units would answer to Tommy Franks and Tommy Franks only. They would bypass their superiors.
"May God have mercy on my enemies as I shall have none"
"George S Patton"
I have no military experience, so I will refrain from giving an opinion. I will point out though that this is from a different era, any of you on here talking about your experience in the military may not have knowledge that is as applicable as you think.
shareWhile this may be true, I served in the military for 8 years. I served with all branches, all ranks, from private to base commander, and occasionally beyond. I saw on many occasion where senior enlisted could say just about anything he wanted, though 99% of the time, started with sir, or ended with sir. That 1% happens though, and nobody bats an eye. In the context of the movie, we think its funny, because it was a funny line, but that man commanded so much respect, he's going to be feared even if they might have thought it was funny. I've laughed on the inside many times, but damn if i didn't keep a straight face to my superior, or to anyone who earned my respect.
Military life can be complicated, but mostly it's very simple. Regardless of rank, respect and experience matters most.