WTF?
I was actually enjoying this movie, and its rather realistic view of what it must be like to be a spy, both in the field and at a desk (ok, maybe a bit of a stretch on the desk, but hey).
Then the solution to the movie, the freagin' deus ex machina is an invasion of CHINA? the marines invade china and storm out an american prisoner? Am i the ONLY one that finds this totally ludicrous? Honestly, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills ove here!!!
You're not alone. IMO, the movie was screwed up by the end of the story. It's not only that they invade China, but also that they do it with two helicopters.
shareLet me clear it up for you. There was no invasion of China. That was a covert CIA operation to jailbreak an agent from a nearby Marines base. They had cut the power so their choppers wouldn't be detected and bribed the people involved.So according to you China has no air surveillance or one that can be shut down nation-wide by "cutting the power" in a local power station. I volunteer you for this mission. Good luck. share
If you just keep repeating "covert ops do not exist," then this becomes a plot hole, I suppose.
shareLet me clear it up for you. There was no invasion of China. That was a covert CIA operation to jailbreak an agent from a nearby Marines base. They had cut the power so their choppers wouldn’t be detected and bribed the people involved.
shareThose weren't Marines. Those were Navy SEALs.
The mission was a snatch & grab where they flew into China under the cover of darkness and disabled radar to steal Tom Bishop from the Chinese.
It wasn't an act of war, it was a covert operation.
Covert operations go on all the time, its just that we don't hear about them cause we aren't supposed to here about them.
Remember those 6 CIA agents who nabbed a Muslim Cleric in Milan, Italy? That was a covert operation except that the Italians found out about it almost a year after.
I don't know if this was realistic. Isn't there more to the Chinese defense against attack from the air - than just the local utility turning off the power? I would assume there's some equivalent of the Strategic Air Command in China - are they in China or the U.S. wholly dependent on local electricity?
When there is a blackout in New York, does this mean during that period we can't detect Russian bombers flying into the U.S. to bomb New York? It sounds implausible, doesn't it?
Otherwise, can we assume that if the Chinese bribe an executive of Pacific Gas and Electric, their military can land a force to take some Chinese spy out of an American prison? Isn't there more to it than that?
Yes, we are vulnerable to the loss of Chinese spies in CA prisons if PG&E gets bribed.
shareIt wasn't an "attack from the air"
It would be like if two helicopters decided to fly over a prison in the U.S. Do you think there's a US military team reading and waiting to counter an escape-plot at every prison in the United States?
China. Its kind of a big place.
As long as you fly low (or high if you're close to the radar station) enough you don't need to black out anything to get past a countrys air defenses, the reason they had to cut the power was because of the prisons external and internal security and to give the commando teams an advantage (night vision goggles is most likely not part of a prison guards standard equipment).
Light travels faster than sound,
that's why people seem bright,
until you hear them.
exactly.. covert ops happen ALL THE TIME. war is more of a public relations thing to keep the public informed because its simply to large to hide. black ops are smash and grab quickies that dont need broadcasting.
shareDo you think the secret CIA prisons all over eastern Europe are any less ludicrous? Or Russia using Polonium (not the most discrete weapon) to get rid of a former agent?
share[deleted]
last I checked a US military special ops team engaging in sabotage, breaking and entery, usage of military weapons on Chinese sovereign territory against Chinese personnel CONSTITUTES A @*#$ INVASION.
Can you even IMAGINE the repercussions of something like this in the real world? this just totally blew my suspension of disbelief away, and ruined the movie for me.
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not in CHINA it doesnt dude! that's a declaration of war! Remember the huckuss cuz the americans had a plane that was arguably over the international air border for China and collided with a Chinese plane? can you even IMAGINE a full fledged military operation on Chinese soil?
I dont know... just seemed silly and non-believable to me.
'extracted' ??
Don't make me laugh.
It wasn't a breakout but a militar attack with two helicopters and a lot of armed soldiers.
And, they shot against the jailers, Chinese people.
If USA helicopters had really entered into China's airpsace and soldiers had shot Chinese people, China would have sent their aircraft, launched missiles against the helicopters and even declared the war against the United States.
They are not stupid, even if they wouldn't caught any American they know who is rescuing the prisoners.
OK, the film is supposed to take place in the eighties, when Chinese air force wasn't a as powerful as now, but it's unbelievable that USA risked causing a war.
China is not a banana republic but a huge and powerful country.
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I really enjoyed this movie.
Of course the US government would not send SEALS to assault a China's military base after 1979, they didn't do that to USSR which had taken many American spies. But in this movie, it wasn't done by the US government, i'ts Redford who FAKED an order to execute a rescue mission, that's logical.
The real problems about the last assault:
1, There is no US Military Base in "80 miles West of Su Chou". The west is inland China!
2, You just can't bribe some local officials to black out a major city with 282,000 USD. People in charge of these power stations would be shot for treason. In fact, those people could get that kind of money in a year with only little risks.
For the Greater Good
You know those people who feel righteously compelled to assume they can kill a thread with those annoying words, "It's just a movie"? Well right now I have nothing but contempt for myself as I'm about to utter those very same words. It's just a movie. Ugh, I can't believe I just said that, but in this case, I really do think those words apply here.
I mean really, c'mon guys. The rescue/extraction was always the inevitable and necessary conclusion to the plight of Bishop and the plot tool for Muir's interrogation. The movie hinged on this outcome and, in my view, it worked. At no point in the film was I under any delusions that this was based on actual events. I had no more trouble suspending my belief with this film than I did accepting that an ex-Navy Seal-turned-cook could single-handedly save the world from the capture of the USS Missouri by a bunch of rock n roll terrorists.
"People should know when they're conquered" - Quintus
Exactly. I knew THE SECOND Muir mentioned to Bishop "put aside some money for when you retire, and never touch it, for anything" that he would use his own secret stash to rescue him.
What would be the alternative? Bishop gets executed and Muir retires in comfort in the Bahamas after acting strange for no reason his last day on the job. Yeah, that would make a GREAT ending.
What would be the alternative? Bishop gets executed and Muir retires in comfort in the Bahamas after acting strange for no reason his last day on the job. Yeah, that would make a GREAT ending.share
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i dont think it's an invasion on the chinese... for me it's a covert rescue mission... a rescue mission that should not happen in the first place since it was conducted by a cia personnel (redford) who fakes the signature of the person who is authorized to sign it... of course the one who should sign to approve the mission is not going to sign it because he doesnt approve it and so nathan (redford) really wanted to rescue bishop decided to forge the signature of his boss and upon confirmation the commander of the air carrier order his men to execute the rescue mission of bishop...
see if the director of the cia was asked permission to sign the order of rescuing bishop i doubt he would sign it since bishop is just a cia agent, he is not the president or even a senator of the united states or a person that can harm the security of the united states if captured by another government and the fact that he went to china not on official cia business...
now regarding the cut off electricity, well i think the movie's setting was after the vietnam war or during later 70's or early 80's, from my opinion i think china thou they are big but their military's equipment i assume is not fully modernized so i think it's possible that cutting the electricity can help the covert rescue mission...
the bribery i think this is were a bit flaw could be seen... im not saying chinese is corrupt but it's possible that a chinese (same with any nationality) can accept a bribe considering that life or money is hard in china during those day's and the fact that they are putting their lives on the line since if they were caught they definitely will be dead... the flaw i think is that the americans rescue only bishop and his galpal, so it's no doubt that the chinese would not suspect that the americans is the culprit and besides the amount of money that is bribe even with exchange rate those day's it still too small...
i always see the word invasion for me what the americans did, thou with violence is not an invasion, it simply is a covert rescue mission, rescuing one of them... if there is an invasion then the US military should not just go to the prison and get their man, they should also bombed the chinese military bases and drop bombs on strategic chinese facility... but no, they did not... the americans simply arrive in the prison, get their target which is bishop and then leave... they did not bomb the facility they just killed chinese soldiers that are a threat to them in completing their mission...
OK, it's not an invasion but it's a military aggression that led to several Chinese died.
shareThe problem is more the complications of foreign diplomacy. The Chinese had an American spy, which they were using as a bargaining chip. The Americans were in turn choosing to deny any knowledge/disavow bishop so the Chinese were stumped with what to do with bishop. However once the spy and prisoner had been rescued the Chinese now had evidence of foreign encroachment on there soil. This would be why the USA did not go in the first place. I don’t imagine the Chinese government would risk a retaliatory strike against the USA (particularly in the time period) however they would probably use the raid to push for a more favourable trade agreement etc which they would not have got from just having bishop. This would be of incredible annoyance to all those in the American government and the attention would turn to Langley. In turn all those involved in organising the raid (robert redford etc) would be severely disciplined the Hong Kong guy would be shuffled down the pile or relieved of command. There would no doubt be some incredibly long winded and stupid review of command issuing protocol resulting in extra bureaucracy and a behind doors hearing at Washington.
All of which would not make as cool an ending as Robert Redford cruising off in his car looking incredibly smug
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if that really happened they would be declaring nuclear war 12 hrs later
They don´t invade China. It is a search and rescue mission in a Prison that officially does not exist.
And since Bishop was officially dead before the operation, the US Government can deny everything.
And don't forget that the next to final line in the movie was "Theres been an incident in China..." and then we see Redford scooting off in his Porsche. We have to imagine what took place/would take place next. Maybe WW III did break out over it - don't know 'cause the movie ends there. I would have enjoyed it just as much had the prison been in some back water area of a lesser country. Hell, its the guards that make the break dangerous, not so much the country.I'm sure this all was contemplated before production.I think they were going for the biggest, most irreverent ending. Redford just started an international incident and left the old gang hanging as he heads off in the sunset - off to the Caymans ?
It reminded me of Slim going down with the bomb in "Strangelove". But hey,what the hell do I know ? LOL !!
I agree with the poster who said that the incident would give the Chinese more leverage in their trade talks. I don't think they'd use it to advance a cause for war against the USA. It would be more advantageous for them to use it as a bargaining chip for economic negotiations.
As for Muir...yeah, I like to think the CIA peeps finally figured out who was behind the whole thing. But in my fantasy world, Muir slips away and escapes their wrath. He goes on to have a peaceful retirement in some island. hehehe