MovieChat Forums > Star Trek: Nemesis (2002) Discussion > Great Film

Great Film

posted 12 years ago by a-m-fleming
23 replies | jump to latest

Backlash from the core fan base is unjustified. They cite Data's death as a reason for the hate of this movie. Fans feared "Nemesis" was another "Final Frontier" and stayed away in droves. The ones that did begrudgingly see Nemesis just validated their own fears by nitpicking at things like Data's death and Worf not really participating. Now JJA will have the honour of rebooting & killing the franchise (rather like Frakes) within two films. His sequel is not released for months and already the Hard-Core-Trekkie-Nerds are calling for blood.

While perhaps not as uplifting as, say, First Contact, Nemsis is a great franchise movie in it's own right. I think Hardy's performance as a 24 year old was so immense that he overshadowed a man 40 years (and countless Shakespearean roles) his senior. The Reman plot was engrossing, well for me anyway, and while the first act's forced cliches and comedy can be seen as a negative I prefer to see it how the cast would: A bunch of close friend having one last hurrah after 15 years. There is always going to be awkward and corny moments in that scenario (see Undiscovered Country). Also Data sacrificing himself, an exclusively animal act, is a decent way to close the TNG narrative.

Logan (Skyfall now $1 billion +) & Spinner did well with the script and even Baird did okay behind the lens. The hate for Nemesis is totally unfounded. Fans should be more worried about where JJ Abrams is taking the franchise, if there can be any going back after a lens-flare-fusion of the two "Star" franchises?

[–] bjlevine 12 years ago

Its not a bad movie, but it's still basically a TNG version of The Wrath of Khan, and not nearly as good.

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

[–] janed74 12 years ago

I don't mind it, it made not much sense when I saw it before the STNG series, I enjoy it more now I have seen the series. Disappointed though that Deanna and Worf weren't together! Although I understand it to do with DS9.. The clone thing though, I think I would be flattered if someone made a clone of me!!

[–] Wuchakk 12 years ago

I prefer it to TWOK. The lengthy space battle in the final act is second to none in the Star Trek franchise. But that's not the main reason I like it.

I like the whole exploration of the conflict of flesh (Shinzon) and spirit (Picard) and the debate over nature (Picard) vs. nurture (Shinzon), or is it nature (Shinzon) vs. nurture (Picard)?

Like Generations, it entertains while delving into deeper themes, although Generations is better (a near masterpiece in fact!)

Data's sacrifice was way more compelling and moving than Spock's melodramatic death scene in TWOK.

I don't think NEMESIS ranks with the greatest of Trek films -- like TMP, TSFS, TVH and Generations -- but it's certainly a solid Trek movie, along the lines of TUC.

Anyway, those who keep shoveling hate on Nemesis are full of sheet. I mean they act like it's the 09 reboot or something.

[–] hjones7 12 years ago

I also enjoy Nemesis I think it is better than Insurrection and Generations but just short of First Contact..what really annoys me is that they cut at least 30 minutes of footage character driven moments in favoure of pure action..they even cut scenes and footage that were in the theatrical trailer for heaven's sake! When the dvd came out I expected we would see an extended cut like with Terminator 2 and the 4 Alien movies but no..then when I heard it was coming out on blu ray I had the same hope..but those fools at Paramount chose to give us the theatrical version again.Nemesis would have been much more popular with fans and critics if they had given us the longer version in the first place

[–] Wuchakk 12 years ago

I finally viewed the deleted scenes on the DVD and, yeah, I wish some of them weren't deleted, like the one where Picard and Data have a discussion while having wine (it's very amusing watching Data try to mimic Picard's wind-drinking) and the one at the end where Riker encouraged the new First Officer to call Picard by his first name. Also Shinzon's second mind-rape attempt on Troi in the elevator, etc.

They made the right choice to delete one scene, the one near the beginning where Shinzon is revealed at the Romulan Senate, which would have ruined his later revelation to Picard and the others. They might be able to include this scene in a director's cut, but only if they keep Shinzon unseen or darkened, where you just hear his voice.

[–] bartcartman 11 years ago

"Data's sacrifice was way more compelling and moving than Spock's melodramatic death scene in TWOK."

I think you have too much emotional involvement with "Nemesis" to see the big picture.

I've rewatched these films many times, and though I know Spock comes back from death, TWOK kills me emotionally EVERY TIME! It's not that Data was only an android, it's the cast of TOS. The bickering between McCoy, and Spock, yet you KNEW Bones would give his life for Spock, and vice-versa (he did). There's none of that on TNG. Everybody is so friendly, unless Wesley Crusher is pissed off, or someone is under the spell of an alien being, or taken by the Borg.

The relationships between Jim, Spock, and McCoy are real life friends, that argue, yet they would sacrfice their lives for each other. TNG was too nice, Data's death was poorly written.

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

I prefer TOS to TNG, but -- even though TNG had a questionable start -- it evolved into a worthy successor. TOS had the incomparable troika of Kirk/Spock/Bones, but the secondary characters were VERY secondary (not that I'm complaining); TNG, on the other hand, had the excellent duo (Picard/Data) that was supported by a strong cast of secondary characters, much stronger than TOS.

I don't watch a TNG film or episode expecting the dynamics of TOS and vice versa. They're both Star Trek, but they each have their unique approach.

That said, for some reason I never found Spock's death scene moving or memorable in TWOK. It always struck me as tacked-on, overlong, tedious and melodramatic. I much prefer Data's death scene in NEMESIS. It worked for me and I found it moving. But it's cool that you like Spock's death scene in TWOK.

[–] bartcartman 11 years ago

"That said, for some reason I never found Spock's death scene moving or memorable in TWOK. It always struck me as tacked-on, overlong, tedious and melodramatic. I much prefer Data's death scene in NEMESIS. It worked for me and I found it moving. But it's cool that you like Spock's death scene in TWOK."

It's how old you are. If you remember a pre TNG universe, TWOK was a welcome film to replace the motion picture. The original ST film tried too hard to recreate Kubrick's 2001. The first time I saw the Spock death scene I was twelve, and not old enough to see the TOS on NBC in the 1960's.

The older I became I loved the TOS films (hit and miss: II, III, IV, VI). Then came TNG, I watched the show only in passing, but never missed the films. Generations was ok, First Contact was on TWOK level of brilliance. Insurrection is better fifteen years later, and Nemesis I don't hate as I did in 2002. What you call melodramatic with Spock's death in TWOK, I call "forced" with Data in "Nemesis".

This heavy handing plot of finding this long lost android, never mentioned on TNG. If it was LOR from a another time, I'd buy it. Yet it's this B4 who is Data with down syndrome.

B4 was used throughout the movie to give TNG cast an out, if they wanted to make another film. Compared to TWOK, all Spock did before he died was give McCoy his brain. The difference between Nemesis, and TWOK is Rick Berman at the last minute improvised with Nemoy with the mind meld (just in case). With Nemesis, Data's death was planned with an Android back up.

Apples/Oranges Do you think TNG would've been in ten forward for Picard, or Riker, or Worf, or Geordi, or Troi, or Crusher's death? No, they would've had a proper funeral service with an empty photon torpedo. Just my opinion.

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

It's how old you are. If you remember a pre TNG universe

I'm older than you and remember it well.

TWOK was a welcome film to replace the motion picture.

This may reflect the fundamentalist Trekker mindset, but I totally disagree with it (although I'm glad they got rid of the pajamas, lol). I love "Space Seed" but found TWOK a bore (Roddenberry agreed, not that his opinion influences mine). I also feel TMP towers alone in the Star Trek film franchise, a profoundly spiritual TRIUMPH. Watch it again for the first time (and check out my review for why I appreciate it so much, if you're interested).

The original ST film tried too hard to recreate Kubrick's 2001.

I know what you mean about the basic "feel" of the picture, but this ambiance actually pre-dates 1968's "2001: A Space Odyssey". Just watch the original 1964 Star Trek pilot "The Cage" for proof. The second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before", and some of the first episodes also had the same feel, e.g. "The Man Trap" and "The Corbomite Maneuver." Not to mention some of the final episodes, like "The Tholian Web" and "The Lights of Zetar."

My favorite Trek films are I, III, IV, VII and XII. I also like V and X, flawed as they are. I'm not a big fan of VIII, but I like it better than II.

This heavy handing plot of finding this long lost android, never mentioned on TNG.

Writers aren't limited to the TV series. Just because it wasn't mentioned in the episodes doesn't mean it didn't happen. Besides, writers for the films are pressured to "up the ante", otherwise they'd be accused of playing it safe, like they were with, say, "Insurrection".

B4 was used throughout the movie to give TNG cast an out, if they wanted to make another film.

True. Unfortunately, there might never be another TNG film or series.

No, they would've had a proper funeral service with an empty photon torpedo.

Who's to say? Maybe they did so off-camera. (That might not fit since I can't remember the scene at the moment). Filmmakers only have a certain amount of time to tell there stories and therefore only include the scenes they feel are pertinent to an entertaining and cohesive story.

Regardless, your criticism is small beans compared to the logical errors of TWOK: Why is it necessary for so many senior officers to appear in a mere cadet simulation? Why use live explosives in a simulator? Why does Spock, a Vulcan, ham it up (with the acting) during the simulation? How could Starfleet and their cartographers not realize that an entire planet is missing in the Ceti Alpha system? How could Chekov not realize it as a trained navigator? Why didn't anyone realize that the Ceti Alpha system was the system in which Khan and his clan were marooned by Chekov's former captain? How did the multi-ethnic supermen of "Space Seed" morph into a bunch of blond Aryans? Why would Scotty (melodramatically) bring his wounded nephew to the Bridge when he should've brought him to Sick Bay? Why did the ear slug simply leave Chekov instead of killing him, as the creatures did to 20 of Khan's people? How could Kirk not notice that Spock, his right-hand man, had left the Bridge? Why doesn't Spock quickly put on an environmental space suit before entering the radioactive chamber? (Then, again, maybe there wasn't time). Need I go on?

Don't take me in the wrong spirit, I love Star Trek and enjoy dialoguing with fellow fans about this stuff.

[–] bartcartman 11 years ago

Regardless, your criticism is small beans compared to the logical errors of TWOK: Why is it necessary for so many senior officers to appear in a mere cadet simulation? Why use live explosives in a simulator? Why does Spock, a Vulcan, ham it up (with the acting) during the simulation? How could Starfleet and their cartographers not realize that an entire planet is missing in the Ceti Alpha system? How could Chekov not realize it as a trained navigator? Why didn't anyone realize that the Ceti Alpha system was the system in which Khan and his clan were marooned by Chekov's former captain? How did the multi-ethnic supermen of "Space Seed" morph into a bunch of blond Aryans? Why would Scotty (melodramatically) bring his wounded nephew to the Bridge when he should've brought him to Sick Bay? Why did the ear slug simply leave Chekov instead of killing him, as the creatures did to 20 of Khan's people? How could Kirk not notice that Spock, his right-hand man, had left the Bridge? Why doesn't Spock quickly put on an environmental space suit before entering the radioactive chamber? (Then, again, maybe there wasn't time). Need I go on?

Don't take me in the wrong spirit, I love Star Trek and enjoy dialoguing with fellow fans about this stuff.

No offense taken, it's great to have dialog without angry arguments.

I never typed TWOK was flawless, and you know all of them. Despite Shatner's TOS stiffness, and his early music career (which he now embraces because he finally gets he's the joke), TWOK did have one of the lamest screams in movie history. Another cringe moment was this female scientist behind Genesis said "can I cook, or can I cook"? She happens to the mother of Kirk's adult son, who hates Kirk.

I get it. To me it's like watching The Beatles White Album. It's flawed, yet it works. Without TWOK there is no Star Trek future. I can still watch TWOK and shed a tear, as flawed as the movie was, as Kirk said; "he was the most huuumagn". That's why the MP failed, it lacked emotion. Yet TOS had many episodes when the Bones, Kirk, and Spock saved each other's lives. TWOK brought that sprit back.

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

I know you didn't say that TWOK was flawless; I was just pointing out that the criticism you made of NEMESIS is small compared to the plot holes of the revered TWOK.

TWOK always struck me as boring because Khan was no longer the intriguing superhuman he was in "Space Seed." Although Montalban never looked better (and his chest wasn't fake!), his character was reduced to a one-dimensional veangeful villain, but -- then again -- maybe that's the point of the story -- veangeful obsession.

I appreciate TWOK's place in the franchise more for the excellent movies it set up -- III and IV -- rather than finding it entertaining on its own. That said, I admit I sorta liked it the last time I viewed it. I guess I have to be in the right frame of mind. I'll never like that guy that plays Kirk's son though (he just doesn't strike me as the son of James T. Kirk).

That's why the MP failed, it lacked emotion.

TWOK lacked emotion as well, at least as far as joie de vivre goes. This spirit didn't surface until III and fully came to the fore in IV, and then went overboard in V. As far as the emotion shown during Spock's death and burial scenes, I never found them moving for some reason. Probably because I was too bored by that time in the story. That whole subplot just seemed extraneous and tacked-on.

As for TMP failing, it didn't. I realize Trek fundamentalists who hate TMP and hail TWOK try to re-write history and say that, but it's simply not true. TMP was a big hit in 1979 and did better at the box office than "Aliens" and "Apocalypse Now", two historically praised films. Even more, it did better than TWOK! TMP made $139 million worldwide while TWOK made $97 million (a full 2.5 years later). Fundamentalist Trekkers may have liked it more, but it simply wasn't as successful at the box office and it definitely didn't have the same worlwide hoopla and excitement that surrounded TMP.

As far as TMP lacking emotion, I disagree. Here's my explanation from my review:

Like the Star Trek episodes "The Corbomite Maneuver" (#3) and "Metamorphosis" (#31), "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" is a mature, cerebral sci-fi story with very little action. Most kids and young adults won't like it or grasp it. It's depth is evidenced by the emotional wallop experienced when Spock grasps Kirk's hand in Sickbay, truly revealing emotion despite his conflicting desire to attain a consciousness of pure logic, or later when Spock weeps for V'ger and comments on its personal dilemma, which perfectly coincides with Spock's own search for fulfillment: "As I was when I came aboard, so is V'ger now -- empty, incomplete and searching. Logic and knowledge are not enough... Each of us at sometime in our lives turns to someone -- a father, a brother, a God -- and asks, 'Why am I here?' 'What was I meant to be?' V'ger hopes to touch its creator to find its answers."

Another powerful sequence is a crewman's self-sacrificial fusion with V'ger so that it may evolve to the next level of awareness (seemingly self-sacrificial, that is).

The fact that the film inspires such profound contemplation and emotion proves that it's not just a bad film that apologists try to make excuses for as critics claim, e.g. "It's deep and awe-inspiring; you just don't understand it." I'm not making excuses; it's simply the truth. If you are unable to accept this perhaps it's because YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH. (lol).

[–] bartcartman 11 years ago

From what I've seen with Shatner/Nimoy with the host Whoppi Goldberg "The Captians Summit" (along with Stewart, and Frakes), The MP was seen as a disaster by Paramount, and TWOK had to be a success. Rick Berman was behind TWOK, and afterwards launched TNG, DS9, and Voyager.

All hail Rick Berman

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

Yeah, TWOK was a great success when it made $42 million LESS than TMP, two and a half years later.

If Paramount felt TMP was a "disaster" (a wild exaggeration) they must have thought TWOK was completely catastrophic.

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

I forgot to mention that I like VI: TUC a lot as well, but not as much as I, III, IV and VII.

[–] bartcartman 11 years ago

I have an analogy you may not understand. Now that I've seen the real numbers; here it is. Star Trek II was Fleetwood Mac post 1974, the band that was famous in America with four great albums. The MP was Fleetwood Mac with Peter Green, and lies have been told by the one's as to why he left.

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

I do understand it; thanks, my friend. Remember the last single (I think)Fleetwood Mac made with Greene, "The Green Manalishi"? Judas Priest, of course, did the more popular metal version in '79, and it's great, but the quirky original is untouchable.

[–] Wuchakk 11 years ago

Or how about the amazing "Oh Well"?

[–] bartcartman 11 years ago

I see why you have such love for ST TMP as I have for Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac. Both were forgotten but launched a band, and a movie franchise. To protect the half American version of Fleetwood Mac, those 2/1970 live recordings at the Boston Tea Party would've killed the modern FM had they been released prior to 1985.

However, Harve Bennett who was part of the post MP team, was the exec. producer of one of my favorite TV shows pre-teen; "The Six Million Dollar Man", so I see both sides of the coin.

I didn't get to re-watch TSM$M until 1997 when I finally had the Sci-Fi channel on cable. At the time I thought it was horribly cheesy.

Then Netflix instant comes along eleven years later, and I'm watching Jack Lord's HF-O, and The Rockford Files, every episode. When I discoverd the Cozi channel a few months ago, they air a four hour block of TSM$M episodes every Wednesday. When I saw the two part Bionic Woman ep. when she dies, I decided to buy the boxset from Amazon at half the original 2010 price.

My opinion of a show I loved as a child, embarrassed to watch in my late twenties, I get in my early forties again.

I'm sure ST TMP has had that same journey for many people. I get it!

[–] IndianaMcClane 12 years ago

I don't think it's great, but I don't think it's as horrible as many make it out to be either. I would rank it as the second best of the Next Generation films (with "First Contact" naturally being the first), and do think it has redeeming features. Particularly at the very least the ideas of the dynamic between Picard and Shinzon, with some great scenes between the two of them. However as I said before, I don't think it's great, and would call it uneven but watchable.

[–] moonstruck4 12 years ago

Tom Hardy did rule this film.

[–] fberst-2 11 years ago

I agree "NEMESIS" is a much better film than general fan reactions indicate. I thought Data's death was moving and beautifully done and I have always preferred the Romulans as antagonists to the idiotic and obnoxious (in the NG anyway) Klingons. I do agree that Shinzon's motivations were illogical and not well developed -- a rough analogy would be me having a troubled childhood relationship with my father and consequently, as an adult, wanting to....oh, I don't know....invade and conquer Canada. And the whole Riker-Troi thing is just nauseating, especially with Frakes having gained like 47 pounds. But overall I enjoyed this film, far more so than the ridiculous Insurrection.

[–] bjlevine 11 years ago

Its a better film that Insurrection, but I think that TNG audiences wanted more films like Insurrection (series like), while general audiences weren't buying into this crew as action heroes. And in the end, its pretty much the same story as TWOK. It was time for TNG crew to pass on.

And B4 is a totally lame idea.

"Oh no...they sent the wrong Spock!"

[–] Porpoise01 11 years ago

I didn't hear ANYONE calling for more films like Insurrection, but I agree the problem was "Franchise Fatigue" -- see my entry on "how to enjoy this film."

"After years of fighting with reality, I am pleased to say that I have finally won out over it."