Maris should be in the HOF - 61* (2001) Discussion

[–] mamcder 18 years ago

I completely agree...I have grown up a die hard Cardinal fan and Maris is so beloved in STL, even if he played only two seasons. It may have some to do with the McGwire home run chase with the Cardinals, but that only brought him back to national prominence. I was not alive when he played but my dad went to the 1964 WS in STL and watched Roger play with the Yanks at the time and dreamed of him in Cardinal red. The day finally came and I dont think Roger was ever more happy playing baseball. Unfortunetly, it was at the end of his career. Too bad he couldnt have played for the happy environment with the Cards longer because he may have put up even better numbers. Ask any fan of the Cardinals if Maris should be in the HOF and you will get a YES! from everyone of us.

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[–] ratpack66 18 years ago

As a Yankee fan and a Roger Maris fan,Plus a little bit of a Cardinals fan I
definetely feel Roger should be in the hall of fame.Come on Rabbit Maranvilleis
in the hall and his stats are basically horrible.So come on sportswriters vote
Rog in the hall where he belongs

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[–] miamicanes974 18 years ago

Maris does NOT belong in the hall. A career .260 hitter with a lifetime OPS of .821 does not belong anywhere near the hall of fame. He made his name with his 1961 season. Yes, Mazeroski was a .260 hitter but he was the best defensive 2B ever and that's the reason he got in.

There were MUCH better players that are not in the hall of fame, such as Dave Parker and Bobby Bonds.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] ubu55 18 years ago

Two good years has been enough for alot of people... and Maris actually has 3, the same number as Drysdale.

Lee Smith's lifetime W-L record is only 71-92, .436 (?!). He lost the majority of undecided games he relieved.

Rose is a completely different case. No way can I picture him betting against his team or shaving points in his playing days. He's not one of the Black Sox. I don't care for him as a person, but, gambling habit or not, it's hard to imagine he won't be in the HOF ...

someday.

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[–] ubu55 18 years ago

Actually Maris OPS is .822, and Mazeroski's is a measly .667. Maris was over .900 twice, Mazeroski only over .700 twice.

Bill James rates Mazeroski 29th among historical second basemen... and that's being VERY generous. He's in the Hall because Yankee-hating sportswriters remembered his 7th game homer in the World Series.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mazerbi01.shtml
See the HOF checks at the bottom of the Leader Board appearances. He isn't at HOF level in even a single category... and Maris is better in every one.

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[–] tylermaher 17 years ago

Dude, the hall of fame is a joke. Look at the players in there-Bill Mazeroski, Pee Wee Reese, Richie Ashburn, Enos Slaughter, and look at the players not there-Jim Rice, Mark McGwire, Pete Rose, Albert Belle, Gil Hodges, Joe Jackson. Comapre the stats, and tell me why that is.

Roger Maris had 3 good seasons, all of which occured playing in a park perfect for his talents in the same lineup as Mickey Mantle. His 1961 wouldn't have happened without Mickey Mantle htting behind him, which is why Maris had not a single intentional walk during his 1961 campaign. Compared to some of the aforementioned guys in the hall, he definitely deserves it. But if those guys weren't in the hall, based on Roger's career, he sure as heck doesn't belong in the hall of fame.

People forget that the Hall should be exlusively for the players who dominated and were incredible in their time.

Getting in doesn't have the same significance it once had, with all the less than spectacular players getting in due to having friends on committees or stupid writers.

"Freedom is never free"

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[–] Kramer439 13 years ago

dude mazeroski got in the HOF for one home run and that is the true reason. maris should be for the record, nuff said

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[–] efs2 13 years ago

I can't say for sure that Bill Mazeroski would have gotten into the Hall of Fame without that home run. But it was definitely not his average offense that got him there. Rather Mazeroski is widely acknowledged as one of the all-time best defensive second-basemen. And it was his defensive skills that got him selected as an all-star 10 times and which won eight Gold Gloves. And two world series championship rings. Even without the home run, that's a pretty impressive resume.

Somedays it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.

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[–] JRK-4 18 years ago

I've been a Yankee fan for decades, and I have a special fondness for Roger Maris, but, alas, he does not belong in the Hall of Fame.

The fact that he only had two or three great years is not a quibble, it's a fact. If he had 6 or 7 great years -- or even 6 or 7 good years -- you would certainly have an argument. It very well may be true that the effect that the events of 1961 had on him damaged him physically and emotionally and caused him to have a sub-par career after that. But Hall of Fame worthiness is based on a player's career, not just a few years. Yes, we won the AL MVP twice (and deserved it both times). And yes, he did win three World Series rings, but there are literally hundreds of players we've never heard of that have won multiple World Series rings, and they certainly don't qualify just because of that. Besides, except for the 1967 series, his World Series stats are apalling (for example, in 1961 he went 2-19 with 6 strikeouts and a .105 batting average). In the end, if it weren't for the 61 home runs in '61, he's a player that today would only be remembered by Yankee fans.

And I wouldn't disagree with you that Maris remains the true holder of the single season home record. Perhaps there needs to be a second asterix after his name, indicating he hit the most home runs in one season without pharmaceutical help.

yippee-kai-yay #6

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[–] ubu55 18 years ago

Must thank you for what is certainly a very well-reasoned reply, but one that would carry more weight (for me) if there were not already many other players in the Hall whose achievements don't seem to merit it either.

Mazeroski is a perfect example (he's in, but Ron Santo isn't!!!???). Drysdale is another, even more glaring inclusion. Aparicio, Eckersley (only 1 save in 6 games, in 3 World Series, and 2 losses, if you want to look at Series stats), Nolan Ryan (292 losses!!!, and a .526 lifetime winning percentage, 13-12 average per season).

Maybe it's partly a matter of wanting to pay Maris back for all the grief he took, but he's a genuine 20th century sports hero. I remember watching #61 on TV, and it was soooo important at the time....
a very real, and amazing achievement, that brought him so little at the time.

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[–] JRK-4 18 years ago

You're point is not without merit. Mazeroski is a perfect example of someone who shouldn't really be in the HOF. There are many other examples of players who shouldn't be there as well. But I've never bought the "X is in, so Y should be in as well" argument. Again, I think you always have to look at the body of the player's work, not just one amazing stat. I mentioned I am a big Yankees fan, but despite that, I still don't think Don Mattingly belongs in the HOF, simply because he didn't sustain his greatness for a long enough period of time. And Mattingly certainly would deserve to be there before Maris. I am an even bigger Cubs fan, and I grew up in Chicago during the era of those great teams of the late 60s and early 70s. Ron Santo was my favorite player of that era, but again, I think he just falls short.

I certainly agree that Maris is one of the truly great sports heroes of the 20th century, a guy who's known for one glorious season, but who should be better known for the player and man that he was.

yippee-kai-yay #6

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[–] ubu55 18 years ago

I must admit the "if X is in, then Y should be," argument suffers from it's basis in casting doubt on another player's worthiness... and whether he's in or not doesn't change Maris' real worth as a player, or as a man, as you say.

Still, if I had a vote in the matter (I don't), I'd cast it for him, because I believe he deserves it...

maybe because I remember that season (I was 13), and being one of many who wanted Mantle to break the record. I had no idea what Maris went through, and how it makes his achievement even more remarkable. I think his few good years are enough, but wouldn't dream of denying your right to disagree. If everyone were as scrupulous and honest about their selections as you seem to be, the HOF might be smaller, but there would be little room for debate on it's members.

Too bad about Santo losing his leg(s?) to diabetes. I know he meant alot to those Cubs teams, and the fans. IMO, It would be no great miscarriage of justice to see him in Cooperstown.

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[–] starbug_56 18 years ago

I agree that he should be there. I can understand the argument that he only had two or three great years, unlike longtime superstars like Mickey Mantle. But I also think that the feat he's most known for was so spectacular that it alone is worth it.

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[–] FRANKDRAFTING 18 years ago

Let's get something straight about Don Drysdale. He was 209-166 with a LIFETIME ERA of 2.95!!!! He played on one of the worst hitting teams of all times for a long time. As a matter of fact, HE used to pinch hit for the Dodgers in the late '50's and early '60's! He was a nasty pitcher who, if he was on the Yankees most likely would have won 300 games! He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, and I'm a Maris fan, a BIG Maris fan AND I HATE the Dodgers!!!!

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[–] ubu55 18 years ago

Even Bill James says (correctly for once) Koufax and Hollywood put Drysdale in the HOF.
Not to mention that he pitched in one of the best-pitcher's/worst-hitter's parks in MLB, on a built-up mound (Except for 1963, both Koufax and Drysdale's era's are a full run higher on the road), for a team that won the NL pennant 5 times and was second twice in his 14 years. In 1963, the strike zone was expanded by over 1/2 a foot, ushering in nearly a decade of dull, pitcher-dominated ball (I remember, I sufferred through waaaay too much of it). Runs dropped by 12%, batting avgs by 12 points.

Yet STILL, 35 of his lifetime 43 games over .500 came in just 3 of his 14 seasons... meaning he's only EIGHT GAMES over .500 for the other ELEVEN YEARS of his career!!!!

His .557 winning % is the exactly the same as Milt Pappas (Pappas should be in the HOF too then, right?). BTW, that .557? ... Koufax is .665, Seaver is .603, Gibson is .591, Marichal is .631, Warren Spahn is .597 (with thirteen 20 win seasons... K&D together have FIVE, and 3 of them are Sandy's). Carlton, who pitched 10 years longer, for much worse teams, is .574! Hershiser is .576, fer cryin' out loud!
He's not in the top 100 all time, and I doubt he's in the top 200.

He was 6'5", and his favorite interview topic was how much he liked to throw at people. He was a lousy fielder. Who cares if he could pinch hit?

BTW, I hate the Dodgers too, but I hate the Giants even more (having been a fan of theirs for years! )

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[–] eryan2-1 18 years ago

did i see that right are you saying sandy koufax shouldn't be in the hall of fame...thats the dumbest thing ever. Lee smith and dennis eckersly are in bc up till this year Lee Smith held the record for all time saves, dennis eckersly only considered one of the great starting pitchers then converted closer. Roger Maris had some great seasons but I don't think he belongs in the Hall of Fame. If you're wanting to try to get someone in the hall of fame in a shortened career then they need statistics like Sandy Koufax. For five years he was unhittable. Maris won the al mvp twice yes but he wasn't the all around player Mantle was, .300+ hitter and great fielder. For three seasons Maris put up all star stats just not Hall of Fame stats

"The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know."
~Harry Truman

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[–] ubu55 18 years ago

did i see that right are you saying sandy koufax shouldn't be in the hall of fame...thats the dumbest thing ever.

Actually, the post is based on Bill James' comment that Koufax was so good he pulled Drysdale along into the HOF with him, which I believe is very true. Koufax is a genuine HOF'er... but Dodger Stadium and the strike-zone change didn't hurt his numbers at all. Sandy really has six seasons, not five, when he was at the top of his game. In 1961, pitching in the Colussieum, as much a hitter's park as Chavez Ravine is a pitcher's, he was 18-13. THAT'S as fine a season in it's way, as the bigger numbers he put up when they moved, and it got easier to throw a strike.

Eckersley? He was 151-127 in twelve years as a starter, not exactly "great starting pitcher" numbers. He has his Cy Young (exactly 1... hmmm, Maris has TWO MVP's), and his big save total. Then there's his World Series record: 0-2, 5.79 ERA. Six game appearances, in three separate Series ... and only 1 save. I'm sure he's Kirk Gibson's favorite pitcher though.
Lee Smith SHOULD get in, since Eckersley has.

The only person it's fair to compare Mantle to, is Willie Mays. But did you know Mantle and Maris have exactly the same number of Gold Gloves? One each.
Also, the same lifetime fielding % as outfielders: .982?

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[–] FRANKDRAFTING 18 years ago

Who cares if he could pinch hit?

The point is, is that the Dodgers were such a terrible offensive team, they used a pitcher in pinch-hit situations. Talk about parks? Yankee Stadium was (and still is) a nightmare for right handed pitchers, but for left handers in the late '50's and '60's it was heaven. If a right handed batter didn't pull the ball perfectly, he usually hit a long fly-out.
We could argue this all day, but in my humble opinion, Drysdale deserves to be in the hall of fame. Tom Seaver was, I think anyway, one of the greatest pitchers I have ever seen, but he pitched in Shea Stadium, a long ball hitters nightmare. Does that mean anything should be taken away from him? Absolutely not! Arguing parks is nonsense.
As far as winning percentage is concerned, Drysdale pitched on a team that needed to shut out opponents to win. He would have won a lot more games had he played on better hitting clubs. For every bad team Carlton pitched for, he also pitched for some pretty good ones as well. The Phillies of the late '70's and early '80's come to mind. Higher era on the road? USUALLY that is natural.
Baseball will always be a statistic oriented game, but I saw Drysdale pitch, and I think today he would be making about 10 million a year. He was great and SHOULD be in the hall.

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[–] ubu55 18 years ago

First, thanks for your reply, FRANKDRAFTING, and apologies for not responding sooner. Gave up on the thread.
Realize I'll never convince you otherwise, but I'll always believe Drysdale was lucky enough to ride Sandy's coat tails into the hall. You make a loyal argument for him, but it's not one I can agree with.

The point is, is that the Dodgers were such a terrible offensive team, they used a pitcher in pinch-hit situations.

Well, they weren't that bad. From '58 (the move to LA) to '62 they were 5th, 3rd, 4th, 2nd, and 2nd in runs scored, and in '62 they averaged almost 6 runs per game behind DD. In large part BECAUSE of Dodger stadium, they fell off to 6th and 8th in '63-'66 (their last pennant year), but they were 1st in defensive efficiency twice, and Chavez Ravine helped them place 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 1st in team ERA. They didn't need that many runs. Drysdale's .300 average in '65 is impressive, but he's still got a .186 lifetime BA.

Talk about parks? Yankee Stadium was (and still is) a nightmare for right handed pitchers, but for left handers in the late '50's and '60's it was heaven. If a right handed batter didn't pull the ball perfectly, he usually hit a long fly-out.

Tom Seaver was, I think anyway, one of the greatest pitchers I have ever seen, but he pitched in Shea Stadium, a long ball hitters nightmare. Does that mean anything should be taken away from him? Absolutely not! Arguing parks is nonsense.

You can't have it both ways. If parks affect the long ball (and big foul ball territory and built up mounds affect put outs and strike outs), then very obviously park dynamics are important.

More telling than all this, might be the answer to the question: "What defines an 'average' pitcher?"

IMO, a lot of weight should be given to how much, and how often the pitcher's winning % exceeds that of his team. Great pitchers seem to average @ 10-20% better on a regular basis. Koufax, Seaver, Maddux, Carlton, Whitey Ford (even while playing on consistently fine Yankee teams), all did it.

Drysdale? was 10% better only twice in 14 years, and only even 5% better twice. He was 5.4, 8.4, and 13.8% WORSE in 3 seasons that his team won the pennant! Over his career, the Dodgers winning % was .545. Drysdale's was .557... or 1.2% for 14 years. Considering there are 3 big years in there just to get that 1.2, it's impossible to see him as anything but an average pitcher who got lucky a couple of times. While he might be making 10 million these days, so's Mike Hampton (53-48 for the last 6 years of big money), and Eric Milton (9.8mill actually). Heck, truly horrible closer Byung Hyun Kim made 6.75 mill trying it as a starter for the Rockies and went 5-12!

I saw Drysdale pitch too, and was never that impressed... but he's in the HOF, and that's all that finally counts.

Peace, ubu55.

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[–] FRANKDRAFTING 17 years ago

You can't have it both ways. If parks affect the long ball (and big foul ball territory and built up mounds affect put outs and strike outs), then very obviously park dynamics are important.

ubu55 I was just trying to say, in my usual messed up way, that one pitchers haven is another's nightmare and everything evens out in the end. Thanks for you input, you obviously know baseball and it's always nice to talk to people who know what they are talking about. I still would want Drysdale on my team, though.

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[–] ubu55 17 years ago

I still would want Drysdale on my team, though.

Lots of people would, including Roger Clemens, for whom he was a role model.

Don't so much know baseball, as where to find out about it. For instance, here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players.shtml

It's a stat-rat's dream! Even has individual game box scores going back a few decades. Also lifetime pitcher vs. batter data. You can see who DD owned at the plate, and who wore him out.

Been looking lately at what, for want of a better term, I'd call the 'Koufax effect.'
Sandy retired at age 30 with a 165-87 record. Remarkable... but not as unique as I once thought. Actually seems to be a fairly common age-30 benchmark for great pitchers:
The @ 160 wins, and 80-100 losses Club.

Seaver, Clemens, Marichal, and Maddux (the Cubs didn't help him much!) were all there, or close. So were many other quality and HOF hurlers. Whitey Ford lost 2 years to the draft/Army... and makes it at age 32! Warren Spahn, 3 years in WWII... makes it at 33! Bob Gibson's there at age 33, no Army time lost.

Nolan Ryan doesn't make it... and his winning % is already almost exactly what it will be when he finally retires, 16 years later at .526!?!? Interesting stuff...

which seems like it must indicate something... but what??????

Thank you for your posts, and your own very well-informed views on this wonderful sport.

ubu

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[–] JRK-4 18 years ago

Talk about weird coincidences! The October issue of "American Heritage" arrived in the mail today, and it has an article about the 1964 World Series (which the author calls "the greatest World Series ever"). In talking about the great players in that series, he mentions Cardinals Hall of Famers Bob Gibson and Lou Brock, and when he turns to the Yankees he writes:

"The Yankees also had two Hall of Famers in their lineup, Mickey Mantle and the pitcher Whitey Ford, with many still claiming Roger Maris should also be in."

See, you're not alone!

yippee-kai-yay #6

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[–] kobie173 17 years ago

No. Yes, Maris was a terrific player, but he didn't sustain it. The "crap the press and public gave him in 1961" had nothing to do with why. The "broken hand that went misdiagnosed for four years" did.

Yeah, he won two MVPs. So did Dale Murphy and so did Juan Gonzalez, and the only way either of those two is getting into the Hall of Fame is if they buy tickets like anybody else.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] Marvelouis 14 years ago

Yes, and now that EVERYONE ahead of him has either confessed or it's know that they achieved the record with steroids, they should actually put the * back. This time, use the * to state that the record was achieved cleanly and is acknowledged as the REAL single season record to this day.

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] Marvelouis 13 years ago

Maris should be in the HOF

Dale Murphy should be in the HOF

Jack Morris should be in the HOF

Trammell & Whitaker should be in the HOF

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[–] Forever_Libra 11 years ago

In 12 seasons, Maris was a career .260 hitter. He amassed 1325 hits and 275 home runs. Those are not Hall of Fame numbers. The guy just did not have an especially long and productive career. He had two great years, 1960 and 1961, and a couple of solid years after that, but he did not age well and injuries doomed his career. His numbers dipped significantly and he was pretty much washed up by the age of 30.

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