Communism Carol
I'm surprised this story is popular in america given how socialist and anti capitalist it is, though i guess that Obama's won thats all changed.
shareI'll forward your concerns to Mr Dickens shall I?
MovieChat Forums > A Christmas Carol (1999) Discussion > Communism Carol
I'm surprised this story is popular in america given how socialist and anti capitalist it is...
Don't pay much attention to the story, do you? It's neither socialist NOR anti-capitalist. Socialism is the attempt by GOVERNMENT to care for the poor; the work-houses, which were the closest Victorian equivalent to "welfare", are implicitly condemned in the story ("...many would rather die than go there.") And one of the most positive characters in the whole story is Fezziwig, a capitalist businessman who treats his workers well and uses his money for good. At the end of the story, Scrooge does not leave business; he merely starts to use his money to actually do something positive rather than just leaving it to accumulate without purpose.
Whatever Dickens' personal beliefs about government-supported redistribution of wealth may have been, "A Christmas Carol" contains no propaganda for such a system, and some against it. The story promotes the idea that INDIVIDUAL human beings are responsible for our own moral choices, and that helping our fellow-men with our wealth is a good thing, but that the individual has the right to choose which charities he wishes to support (as the reformed Scrooge assisted the Cratchit family and gave to his neighborhood fund "to buy the poor some meat and drink and means of warmth"). And considering that the US gives more to charities (including aid to poverty-stricken nations) than any other Western nation, I would say the average American believes exactly what the story promotes: That government "assistance" programs are properly mentioned in the same breath as prisons, and that the wealthy have a MORAL (not legal) obligation to help those less fortunate than themselves.
Merry Christmas to all, and God bless us, every one.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
"Don't pay much attention to the story, do you?"
I pay a great deal, perhaps you should try reading it?
"It's neither socialist NOR anti-capitalist."
No its both
"socialism is the attempt by GOVERNMENT"
Lol Wrong!
Socialism is an ideology, like any other, be it christian, Jedi, or Liberal. and dickens was espousing those values.
"to care for the poor; the work-houses, which were the closest Victorian equivalent to "welfare","
as uninformed on history as you are on literature and politics i see? actually the workhouses were a driving factor in the creation of modern socialism.
"Scrooge does not leave business; he merely starts to use his money to actually do something positive rather than just leaving it to accumulate without purpose."
really? thats sounds socialist, also where exactly does it say he keeps working at his business?
""A Christmas Carol" contains no propaganda for such a system, and some against it."
I contains a great deal of moral arguments for socialist values, the portrayal of scrooge and his conversion.
"The story promotes the idea that INDIVIDUAL human beings are responsible for our own moral choices, and that helping our fellow-men with our wealth is a good thing,"
yes its called socialism well done!
"but that the individual has the right to choose which charities he wishes to support (as the reformed Scrooge assisted the Cratchit family and gave to his neighborhood fund "to buy the poor some meat and drink and means of warmth")."
when exactly does it say that? every charity or charitable case introduced in the story Scrooge helps, if you were familiar with the text you'd realise that.
"And considering that the US gives more to charities (including aid to poverty-stricken nations) than any other Western nation"
No it doesn't, not per capita nor gross, it fact its the worst aid giver in the western world, arent facts fun!
"I would say the average American believes exactly what the story promotes"
Only for corperation and bankers it would appear
"That government "assistance" programs are properly mentioned in the same breath as prisons,"
Only because the wealthy controlled government, as Scrooge says I support those Institutions!
"and that the wealthy have a MORAL (not legal) obligation to help those less fortunate than themselves. "
Laws are only enforce morals on people who lack them in society, the same way we enforce the moral against murder.
I'm extremely familiar with the text, but I don't process it through a filter of what I would LIKE to believe as you do.
Goodbye.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
evidently your not.
shareEvidently, I'm far more familiar with the text than a person who needs me to lead him to the evidence that Scrooge remained in business (hint: "I'm going to raise your salary!", and a flat statement of the fact in the penultimate paragraph of the story). However, I'm not going to waste my time on a point-by-point refutation of a person whose true feelings for his fellow humans are amply demonstrated by the tone of his posts.
Besides, such argument is pointless when all any reader of this thread need do to settle the question is to read the story for himself. It's readily available in several places online (for instance: http://www.literature.org/authors/dickens-charles/christmas-carol/) and in a plethora of printed stand-alone editions and anthologies. I urge anyone who doubts the points I have made to read it without delay.
And that is the last I have to say on the subject; if you have an emotional need to have the "last word", please do so and be done with it.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
And the correct answer is ... Miss October is right, Jack Doyle is wrong.
Not only is Jack Doyle not sufficiently acquainted with the text (or has misread it horribly), and has a poor knowledge of socialism, but he's also unfamiliar with the context in which Dickens' work was written.
Victorian England was horribly fractured, with the gap between rich and poor FAR more profound than it is now. Poverty was fierce and widespread. Dickens fought against poverty. Fighting against poverty does NOT make one a socialist.
Socialism, as defined in Oxford, is "1. a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the community as a whole should own and control the means of production, distribution, and exchange. 2. policy or practice based on this theory. 3. (in Marxist theory) a transitional state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism."
A Christmas Carol does not fit into this defintion.
Although this was written 3 years ago, Mrs. October, you hit the nail squarely on the head. This story isn't a vehicle of government intervention but rather a story of being both wealthy and generous. The case was made for Fezziwig but you can mention Fred as well. He is a man of better means and appears to have a very good heart.
shareMiss October (of 12 years ago!) was totally correct, and this Doyle guy doesn't have a clue.
shareYes, Mr Dickens was a flaming Marxist. I bet he and old Karl were chatting it up every night and discussing the overthrow of the British bourgeois over adult beverages in a local pub. Look, Miss O in her usual inimitable fashion refuted your underlying theory with a series of factual responses, so I won't rehash here. I will add one things though: Dickens was a consumate businessman when it came to publishing his writing and seems to have espoused no redistributive ideas such as you attribute to him (through advocacy on your part, I suppose). Even real-life businessmen such as Carnegie and Morgan often contributed huge sums of money VOLUNTARILY to charity decades after A Christmas Carol came out, yet they were far from socialists. It seems to me you saw what you wanted to see, distorted Dickens' message and vision, and ultimately proved your lack of perceptive analysis by clumsily tacking on a message not supported by the text to a brilliant, if at times overly melodramatic, work.
shareChrist was a communist and a socialist.
shareI commend you, good trolling sire. Great topic.
shareOh great. Another paranoiac who hasn't bothered to check what the definition of communism/socialism is before having a go a Dickens.
A rich capitalist using his wealth to support the needy causes he sees fit to help; quite the opposite of what socialist ideology demands which is a a form of collectivism and redistribution of all wealth. The poor houses and the treadmills were the embodiment of that kind of policy at the time Dickens wrote this. Scrooge's satisfaction at having cocntributed to this refuge for the poor through compulsary taxation and his unwillingness to look into his own heart and nurture empathy and compassion for others is what is highlighted here.
If A Christmas Carol had any effect it could possibly be linked with the emergence of some of the great capitalist philanthropists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It did not preach or usher in any socialist policies.
The message was simple: "You can't take it with you."
It's not anti-capitalist, it's anti-greed, which is a sin. It is pro charity, at no point is government intervention a part of the story, but rather a private citizen volunteering his wealth, which is usually the right-wing compassionate conservatism claim.
shareYou know greed is at the core of capitalism right? Scrooge was the representation of the capitalist lassiez faire society, yet now his making all these interventions into the natural development of events to improve peoples lives and help them towards their flourishing!
Just watch the film or read the book it is really rather clear!
You had opined that the US is the worst giver in the world. A simple Google search of many sites which track these sort of things has, for years, put the US in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd place slots (depending on year and methodology) in the World.
share"Now that Obama's won that's all changed"--painfully not the case!
share