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My conclusion on this movie after many views

posted 9 years ago by fender818
59 replies | jump to latest

I've seen this film over 20 times the past 10 years and have caught on to a lot of things each time. I've seen a lot of posts on here about Leonard's past being Sammy's past and what not. After my last viewing, I have come to the conclusion, which makes a lot of sense now, that Leonard IS in fact faking his illness. He does not actually have brain damage and cannot make new memories.

I based this on several things:

1. Even though he "cannot" make ANY new memories, he still remembers certain things, usually about his investigation on his wife's murder such as knowing he has a photograph of everything and that he has an entire file on his wife's murder.

2. Every time he meets someone either new or that knows him, or when someone is about to test him, his memory instantly resets. This kinda shows that he wants to constantly give the perception that every time someone see's him, he cannot remember them. Some times his memory last while, like he was aware of the entire night he was WITH Natalie until he woke up. Other times it only lasts a few minutes, coincidentally whenever someone arrives or *beep* with him, like when Natalie spit in his beer and gave it to him 20 seconds later.

3. The scene where he meets Natalie at the restaurant. If you watch him, he clearly looks right at her as if he knows its her, yet then keeps walking by.

4. Going back and adding to #1, if he cant remember anything after the incident, how the *beep* does he know that he has no short term memory. Some may say the tattoo on his hand, but he doesn't constantly look at his hand. He scene where Natalie takes all the pens and *beep* with him, his memory reset before she got there and after he got there, yet he KNEW he needed a pen to write down what happened.

My take on Leonard is that his wife got raped and murdered and he could just not handle it. He remembered Sammy, who was also a faker, and realized that Sammy did it just as a way to escape life and have people pity him. Leonard, not being able to go one with his life, creates a new persona of one whom cannot remember anything before the incident, yet wants revenge on the murderer. So he teams up with the cop assigned to the case, Teddy, and gets his revenge. Now avenging his wife, and having pretended to not be able to produce new memories so some time, Leonard has absolutely no purpose left in life, so he decides to keep on doing it. Like why did he NOT get that tattoo on his heart after killing the guy? Why did he take pages out of the report? By the time he gets to where he is in the movie, which has been at least a year since the murder, he's been so used to doing the whole memory loss thing that he actually starting to believe it himself, which is why he does things even when no one is looking. Maybe he either wants to keep playing this role, or he just wants to forget the things he has done since the murder.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Pretending that you forget that there's a gun-toting guy pursuing you and not the other way around seems to be taking a game a bit too seriously, IMO.

[–] fender818 9 years ago

Yeah that's the point, is that it's not a game to him, it's become him like it did Sammy. He's been doing it for so long that he doesn't even realise he's doing it. Just like how he's blocked out certain parts of his memory like his wife being diabetic and being in an institution.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

~_^ So you basically imply that Lenny is a bad case of schizophrenia?

[–] fender818 9 years ago

Just watch the film again with the idea that he's faking. You'll probably pick up on it

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Un-bloody-likely. With the idea that he's faking the movie becomes a pointless flick without substance, common sense, and message.

[–] fender818 9 years ago

Exactly man. If you a Christopher Nolan fan you know he puts small hidden detail into things his movie. There are small things in the movie that support this. Like the scene where the manager tells him about renting him a second room and lenny refers to him by his first name without him saying it. Or when he's writing teddys license plate at the end he somehow knows he has a body of tattoos saying "Facts" as he's writing fact 6. Leonard had slip up throughout the film if u pay attention that may show he's faking it, and Nolan wouldn't write these things as goofs.

[–] the-author 9 years ago

that is a terrible solution. L-A-M-E
there are a hundred ways that the film shows his lost memories.
His rooms, his 'wife's book, he even tries to rub off the ink of the 'sammy' tattoo.
Besides, we see the x-ray of his skull, which was definitely bashed in.
Nolan would never lead the viewer to this conclusion.

You are saying that either sammy or leonard deliberately killed their wife just to pretend to have a mental condition?
he doesn't even remember who natalie is in the morning when he wakes up.
he forget why he is in dodd's motel room.

just a huge NO!
in fact, I would delete the whole post. it is an embarrassment.

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[–] fender818 9 years ago

Did u even read my post buddy?

I never said he killed his wife. I said after his wives murder, he may have suffered from severe PTS and developed almost another personality as someone with memory loss to cope. Sammy was a faker and used his "disease" as a way to escape life and make people pity him. Leonard decided to do the same thing.

In the film when Lenny talks about sammys test, he says that he should have known the objects were electrified "not by memory but by repetition". Lenny been pretending so long that his mind actually believes it.

Teddy says to Lenny "that's who you were, not what you've become". Lenny killed the man responsible but chose NOT to get the tattoo on his chest. Why? Cause everything he's done and created on his life will be over and has no one point of living. That's why when he writes down teddys license plate, he writes it off by a number. He obviously wanted to kill Teddy to keep his purpose going. He's become a straight up sociopath.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

"Certain parts of his memory like his wife being diabetic and being in an institution" only make sense if he *did* have a condition. There's no reason to suppress memories about her diabetes if it had nothing to do with her death, therefore he, and not the robber, killed her. And that wouldn't happen if he only started this charade of memory loss *after* her death. Without the condition being real, there would be no event itself that would be the supposed reason to start faking it in the first place.

It seems that Nolan's trademark messed chronology turned to be a beverage too strong for your head. Get it straight.

[–] fender818 9 years ago

Lol or i pay pay more attention to detail and outside thinking than a narrow point of view of what Im told is how it is such as yourself apparently. And yes, your mind can alter, distort, or erase anything it wants.

I say, Lenny was faking his condition and an escape of sorts, but got so caught up on the act that he killed his wife from the insulin test. After that his mind basically snapped, he couldn't handle the fact that he killed her so his mind surpassed the fact of his wife having diabetes. If she wasn't diabetic then he couldn't have killed her.

I'm taking you agree that Nolan does like to confuse audiences and make them ask questions, so then why wouldn't this be a possibility? Or are you just another closed minded Ahole on IMDB that just believes what they believe and everything isn't as "intelligent" as them. Cause I'll just say, of these people were so "intelligent", I don't think they'd be wasting time posting about crap like this that does not matter whatsoever and do something more productive. And Nolan fanboys are def the hardest the have discussions with.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

I say, Lenny was faking his condition and an escape of sorts

Escape from *what*? Please elaborate.

I'm taking you agree that Nolan does like to confuse audiences and make them ask questions, so then why wouldn't this be a possibility?

Because it's not enough for a possibility to be bizarre, unexpected, and "outside thinking" in order to be granted a slightest dime of value. It also has to make *sense*. Yours does not qualify.

[–] fender818 9 years ago

Escape from life basically. That's what Sammy probably did it for. How does that not make sense?

And it's because it's like you said it isn't something that is on the surface that people would think. Nolan doesn't like to hand feed people everything in his films, aside from interstellar. The idea that Lenny does not actually have the disease, but rather just thinks he does by telling himself and repeating it over and over for a few years, is totally something Nolan would do. Think the prestige. We're never told wether or not if Hugh Jackson gets teleported and a clone stay and drowns, or if the clone teleports and the original drowns, or even if they are more of him out there. Memento is a movie that feels like there's more to it in there and u gotta pay close attention to every detail.

I'm not trying to get into a debate with you and have you agree with me, but I haven't seen anyone else think this and think it's an interesting thought on it.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Escape from life basically. That's what Sammy probably did it for. How does that not make sense?

Sammy had a real head trauma and planned to gain from insurance claiming more severe damage than it was. If not for Lenny debunking his fraud, he'd succeed. *That* makes sense and is explicitly stated in the movie. What in the movie suggests that Lenny needed "escape from life" prior to his wife's death?

Speaking of The Prestige, you're now in the position of Angier, who wanted to believe in excessively complex solution and ultimately allowed to be led into an outlandish plot that eventually got him killed just because he thought the proposed solution to Borden's trick was too simple to be true. Well, in the end the truth turned out to be exactly *that* simple. Think of it.

[–] fender818 9 years ago

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It happens with vets. They come back completely different people. Some trying to block things they've done on their lives.

I'm not saying Lenny deliberately wanted to do it. The incident happened, he got hot in the head, but he couldn't got go on with life knowing the his wife got raped. Every time he saw her he remembered it. So he tired to forget.

There are alot of scenarios you can go into, but that's breaking into things that are not present in the film. The movie mentions throughout how memory is distorted and how humans learn through repetition. That's my case on my opinion here. You say there'd be no movie if this was right, but I think it'd be the ultimate hidden twist.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It happens with vets. They come back completely different people. Some trying to block things they've done on their lives.

Being robbed and hit on the head is *nearly* not enough for developing a PTSD. Vets are having their rough at somewhat different order of magnitude. Prior to killing his wife, he didn't *do* anything needing to be blocked from memory.

Memento the movie describes a really existing memory disorder in the way it actually *does* work IRL. You describe a fictional one, that has to act by the set of rules you establish yourself for it to be able to support your theory. Complexity penalty.

[–] the-author 9 years ago

Lol or i pay pay more attention to detail and outside thinking

Apparently not. There is no detail that Leonard is faking anything.

I say, Lenny was faking his condition and an escape of sorts, but got so caught up on the act that he killed his wife from the insulin test.

Right, rather than admit he lied to his wife, he decides to kill her. Great twist.

are you just another closed minded Ahole on IMDB that just believes what they believe and everything isn't as "intelligent" as them.

Well, anyone that doesn't agree with you (a million viewers) is wrong.

Nolan fanboys are def the hardest the have discussions with.

Apparently 'Nolan fanboys' understand the film better than you.
Your scenario that Leonard is faking it goes against everything in the film.
Leonard did not think Sammy was faking it, John did.
But if John is right, then Sammy was single.
Leonard is the only source of information. John would not know any details.

There is evidence that Sammy is faking it and evidence he isn't.
If you can find two things about Sammy faking it, then you can redeem yourself from this abundant nonsense about Leonard faking his condition.

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[–] fender818 9 years ago

The fact that they say in the film that Sammy showed no signs of brain damage on the scans. I mean in not a doctor, but people with normal brain scans do not tend to not be able to produce new memories.

Now tell me one thing that cleary states Sammy wasn't faking.

I just get confused by you super Nolan fans. Like it's called open to interpretation. Why get so upset over someone else's thoughts? Especially over a stupid movie lol. Doesn't make sense. There are more important things.

[–] the-author 9 years ago

it's called open to interpretation. Why get so upset

Interpretation is different from vast speculation.
You stated your premise and we have simply disagreed with you.
Why do you think either of us would be upset?
You haven't given any evidence to back up your theory.
And you have clearly over-looked much of the film that disproves it.

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[–] fender818 9 years ago

Okay. Well you given given any evidence that proves my theory wrong lol.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Well, *I* did, but you chose to ignore it based on sheer obstinacy. Now matter how used you are to pretend you don't remember things that happened just five minutes ago, it's simply not possible to *really* forget them if you don't have a physical brain injury. The memory doesn't work like that. It's one thing to distort and suppress some unpleasant memory by continuous persuading yourself, but a guy who chases you with a loaded gun you just *can't* ignore, consciously or unconsciously, just to keep pretense and "escape from reality". You don't simply forget that reality kills.

[–] fender818 9 years ago

Actually the brain can work like that. It's like pathological liars. They liar so much about something that they actually start to believe it themselves. Lenny has been trying to convince himself he has this disease for so long every minute of the day that he believes that he does, which is why he seems so proud of telling people about his condition. With enough time and repetition, you can train your brain to do anything.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Oh really? And I guess you can provide a real-life examples that somebody, without the help of heavy drugs, willed himself not just ignore but *forget* about the clear and present danger in a course of seconds? The audience is breathless.

[–] fender818 9 years ago

Here's a real life example. I keep forgetting why the *beep* I keep talking to you.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Witticism efficiency: 60%
Informative response: 0%

Attempt failed.

[–] the-author 9 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQqZNZE9ByE

Nolan says his condition is real.
the entire film is about a man with short-term memory loss.
Nolan says you are wrong.
Stop trolling already.

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[–] fender818 9 years ago

Here's some one elses points on it.

https://m.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/18splc/memento_alternate_interpretation_leonard_shelby/

No where in that video did he cleary state that Lenny 100% has the condition and rather just says the psychological state of mind the main character is in and how he approached telling the story.

And since you are SO good at knowing exactly what is going on in the movie, explain one thing to me then. Explain the scene where it shows Lenny AND his WIFE with a tattoo over his heart saying "I've done it".

Maybe the bitch isn't even dead.

[–] the-author 9 years ago

Oh my word, you are a lost soul.

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[–] fender818 9 years ago

Taking you can't explain it.

My theory is that if lenny does have short term memory loss, his wife used him to kill the other rapist. Then either she died from the insulin overdose and lenny got the tattoo removed, or she is still alive and had lenny remove the tattoo and put him in an institution due to her not being able to deal with him.

Either way, that shot cleary states that she was alive after killing John G., yet he still has the tattoo about her being murdered and raped. So that's why I feel she pretended to be dead and used him.

[–] the-author 9 years ago

LOL
Do some reading on the boards.
It's been explained to death.

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[–] fender818 9 years ago

Yeah by people like you, which isn't concrete one bit. As is my theory of him faking, as is your disapproval of it. That's why they're called viewer theories and interpretations. The only one who knows the truth are the Nolans and personally Pearce. Your opinion, as much as you may think you're right, is not 100%, and neither is mine. But that's what these boards are for. To discuss. Not to call period idiots cause they have a different insight as you. I'm guessing you are a Christian democrat lol.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

The scene in question is not a memory but a daydream, a metaphor for his wish to reconcile with himself. He wants that his killing of John G. would give him the sense of accomplishment, yet he knows that with his condition he'd never will be able to rest from the goal he trained himself so hard to follow despite all obstacles.

Even if he had such tattoo and then had it removed, some traces would remain. His chest is clean when we saw it earlier, so this can't be real shot. Not that it's the first time the movie uses visualizations rather than genuine memories.

[–] fender818 9 years ago

Yes, but my point is is like everything else on these boards, these are all assumptions. What you said is your thoughts on it based on the evidence showed to you. This board had been about my thoughts based on the same evidence. I'm struggling to realize how you don't understand that. This isn't a movie where everything is presented to the viewer to know exactly what happens. It's vague and open ended. Those are movies a like. Ones that develop many theories and opinions, bit no one knows exactly which is correct, as much as you may think. Another movie of the to of my minds like this is It Follows. Watch that and go to that board. Dozens of theories but no one knows for certain what is right. If you show me a video or quote where Nolan says everything you've said is right, then I'll believe your opinion. Till then, neither of us is indefinitely right. Deal with it. I love the fact that this movie created many of theories, and love hearing them.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

[shrug] There are points open to interpretation, and then there are points not open to interpretation. In none of scenes where we see Lenny's naked torso except the one you asked about, there's 'I've done it' tattoo nor a trace of a tattoo removed. Neither any of them are memories or visualizations. Unless you can contest the statement above with a screenshot in hand, it's to be considered a hard fact from the movie and not an interpretation. If you want to suggest an alternative explanation to the scene in question, it *has* to be consistent with hard facts, otherwise it's not worth attention, and neither your preachings about "opinions" are. If you have one that is consistent, go ahead. What the "I've done it" scene, in your opinion, means?

[–] the-author 9 years ago

Yet, Nolan DID say that "Leonard has a real condition where he can't form new memories". So, it ain't opinion, it simply is. Nolan only said that Leonard learned it from researching it as an insurance investigator. So, Sammy's condition is open. Some say John's statement is "proof" and some say only Leonard would know the truth. There is hard evidence that Leonard's story is not 100% accurate.

If you ask questions rather than make bold (and inaccurate) statements, people won't laugh but will help you.

Leonard dreams. That's why he closes his eyes. Simple. He dreams he wins her back by getting revenge. Maybe fact 6 will get removed. Maybe he will get the I've done it tattoo.

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[–] fender818 9 years ago

Okay, so you're giving me FACTS about Nolan saying he has the condition. Where's the FACTS about everything else. His wife? Teddy? How many John's he's killed?

I laugh right back at you from your ignorance. You're arguing with me over a movie. I say white, you say *beep* And I did explain evidence supporting evidence supporting theory which you have not made arguments against all of them. Re read, mane a solid argument against each point. Then I may believe you. Till then, it's line saying if they made it off the bus with the gold in the Italian job.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0209144/faq?ref_=tt_faq_sm#.2.1.5

[–] fender818 9 years ago

I don't care about viewer assumptions. Show me Nolans statements.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

And I did explain evidence supporting evidence supporting theory which you have not made arguments against all of them. Re read, mane a solid argument against each point. Then I may believe you.

I don't understand you. The-author provides a link to Nolan's words that Leonard has a condition, and that's *all* that necessary to refute the claim that he's faking, regardless of what he says or not about Natalie etc. You demand to shuffle through the list of your arguments (which are nothing more than "user assumptions", for that matter). The FAQ I link addresses each of them and then those you haven't think about. You demand Nolan's WOG again. When do you stop wriggling and just admit that you simply haven't think your hypothesis through properly?

[–] fender818 9 years ago

That video was while the film was still being made. Nolan obviously will just describe the plot of the film. He won't give away any hidden messages or things of that nature probably ever. The movie about a guy with short term amnesia, why would he say in an interview before release that he may be faking that condition? Or evidence of any other possibilities?

[–] the-author 9 years ago

She sounds better suited to Shutter Island.

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[–] fender818 9 years ago

Out of all this, no one had argued my main topic that supports my theory. That why firs lennys memory always reset every time a character shows up or is trying to test him. He can be with the same character for an hour and his memory is intact, but if he's alone and someone shows up or if he feels like they are about to test him/use him, his memory instantly resets whether or not it's been an hour or a minute. Like when he was in the bar or at Natalies house, it seems like he wants to be used by people.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

His memory persists as long as he's able to think of the same thing. As soon as something else grabs his attention, the previous thought is "wiped from cache". A healthy person can stash it into long-term memory and then retrieve again if necessary. A person with anterograde amnesia can not.

A stark example is the scene where Lenny is looking for a pen. He tries to will himself into remembering he needs a pen to write something important, and it works until he hears the door slam... ironically, if he did found that pen at some point, he wouldn't remember what he needs it *for*.

[–] fender818 9 years ago

Yea that's what I thought for awhile. But then other scenes but like up with that. Like when he's being chased by dodd. A situation like that that requires full focus doesn't make sense for him to get side tracked and forget. Similar to him waiting for dodd in the hotel. Yet when he was at Natalie his memory lasted the entire night, and when he woke up and didn't remember her, he somehow remembered that she had last someone too. Maybe all my examples are continuity error, but I doubt it. This isn't The Dark Knight Rises, where almost every scene of that movie had some issue with it.

[–] TVippy 9 years ago

What does the ending even mean? Why does Lenny choose to continue?

-------------------------------------
I own you.https://goo.gl/0avZjB

[–] WallaceHasLanded 9 years ago

Here's my take...

Leonard was absolutely not faking his condition. All these examples that have led to your hypothesis are simply movie making errors. It's not meant to be dissected to this level. Just like most films, if you apply to much logic to it, things will fall apart.

Every time Leonard resets, he should be taken right back to the point of his loss of memory ability, which would be laying on his bathroom floor. He should come to, be VERY confused that he's in some strange place surrounded by strange people, and should need a detailed explanation to bring him up to speed. The vast amount of details that he would need to absorb in order to put him back on track to finding his wife's killer could never be delivered in a timely enough fashion for him to move forward. He would forget where he was long before he figured out his new life's mission of tracking down his wife's killer.

All the tattoos and notes in the world can't explain away the massive amounts of details he would need to absorb. In fact, his first thought upon resetting should be "Where is my wife, what happened?" followed by an immense amount of grief and turmoil. Every single time he resets he's discovering that his wife is dead for the first time over and over and over again. It's completely incomprehensible to believe that someone could discover that their loved one is dead, then catch up on their entire investigation all in a matter of minutes. In fact, how can he even remember what his condition is if he's lost the ability to make new memories. He'd need a damn doctor there every single time he resets to explain what is happening to him.

Point I'm trying to make is to just sit back and enjoy the film for what it is. Only reason to dissect with real world logic is if you're trying to make a point about the film being badly conceived. Trying to convince anyone that Leonard is faking it the whole time feels like someone who loves the film, recognizes that there's a lot of continuity errors, and feels the need to logically explain them with the only possible explanation, no matter how ridiculous it is.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Every time Leonard resets, he should be taken right back to the point of his loss of memory ability, which would be laying on his bathroom floor. He should come to, be VERY confused that he's in some strange place surrounded by strange people, and should need a detailed explanation to bring him up to speed. The vast amount of details that he would need to absorb in order to put him back on track to finding his wife's killer could never be delivered in a timely enough fashion for him to move forward. He would forget where he was long before he figured out his new life's mission of tracking down his wife's killer.

This is not the way anterograde amnesia works.

[–] the-author 9 years ago

He does seem to 'reset' each morning when he wakes up.
He has a feeling his wife is gone and not coming back (he tells Natalie)
He doesn't know how long she's been gone
Since Leonard can 'trick' himself into believing she is alive (with her mementos and a warm bed), then it would appear that he doesn't remember seeing her die in the bathroom.

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[–] WallaceHasLanded 9 years ago

So is it your take that if logic is overused when dissecting the film that it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to be able to ever get a full understanding of his situation before he "resets" again?

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Once again: "resets" is an over-simplification that leads to misunderstanding of how his condition *really* works. He doesn't "reset" to the state before the attack, he simply can't (for most part) remember anything that happened since. Read about anterograde memory dysfunction before deciding whether logic in the movie makes sense or not: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0209144/faq#.2.1.29

[–] WallaceHasLanded 9 years ago

Im not going to research a disorder that is never called by name in the film. I'm going to take exactly what the filmmakers gave us in the story, and Im going on that.

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Your wish to stay ignorant is nobody's problem but yours.

[–] WallaceHasLanded 9 years ago

You're right. I should go research a disorder that is never called by name to better understand the story of a fictional movie.

Douche

[–] mad_weather 9 years ago

Much better than inventing your own on the spot, based on your ignorance, and then complaining that reality of the movie doesn't really conform with it.

[–] WallaceHasLanded 9 years ago

Im not inventing anything. Im taking exactly what is shown in the movie.

[–] dailydarkness2021 9 years ago

though its not very easy to agree with your perspective,i find it quite interesting. i'ma watch it again from your angel.

[–] the-author 9 years ago

Which theory is that? Not the troll 'Leonard is faking it', I hope.
That's the weirdest one yet.

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[–] loga2604 9 years ago

I actually mostly agree with you (apart from your point him removing the tattoo. There is no way his skin would be as smooth as that after removing a tattoo).

I agree with you because there have been certain things which always irked me (some of which you have already pointed out). If the others are able to explain all of these adequately i may just convert to being a traditionalist. But the main one is this:

how was lenny able to cook up the sammy story with details of the own killing of his wife if this happened AFTER the incident which gave him the condition? Surely this means he was able to create new memories? He was consciously altering sammy's story with a memory which occurred AFTER the incident!

[–] HiFiAudioGuy 8 years ago

His wife didn't get murdered. There's a brief flash near the end with Leonard in bed with his wife, and he has some of the tattoos on him. This means they were together AFTER the attack.

[–] the-author 8 years ago

see the frequent questions section....that was a daydream scene.
Look closely again at his tattoos in that brief scene.

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