Just a quick question, I bought this DVD yesterday and its titled "Men of Honour" yet on the special features it is stated "Men of Honor", as it is also advertised on this site.
Am i right in saying the spelling difference is due to the UK and American spelling of the word?? Or am i going mad and missing out on something very obvious?!!
No you are right "Men of Honour" is britsh and "Men of honor" is english
shareNo, "Men of Honour" is English, and "Men of Honor" is American English
shareWe're getting there. "Men of Honour" is British English, and "Men of Honor" is American English. Similarly colour/color, labour/labor, favour/favor, etc.
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No, the prvious poster had it correct. "Men of Honour" is English, and "Men of Honor" is American English.
There's no such thing as "British English", however, there is such a thing as "American English".
Why isnt there such a thing as British English??
"British English (BrE) is a term used to differentiate between the form of the English language used in the British Isles and those used elsewhere. It includes all the varieties of English used within the Isles, including England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. The term is used especially by Americans. British people generally use the term 'Standard English' or merely 'English'."
If we're nitpicking "men of honour" is Commonwealth English (or British English however you want to call it) and "men of honor" is American English.
all the varieties of English used within the Isles, including England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
What would these be then?
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isn't it usually called queens english rather than british english and american english
and some people need thier definition of the british isles changed as the term includes the isle of man the isle of wight jersey guernsey and all the other islands still affiliated with the queen of england
I thought 'The Queen's English' was more an accent than form of spelling? (Received pronounciation / Estuary English / BBC Home Counties / etc) I could be wrong.
shareQueen's English is recieved pronounciation. The reason you've never heard of 'British English' is because it's just English.
shareThank you all. This is the first intelligent discussion I've seen on IMDB and except for one deleted post, it seems that everyone's talking sensibly!
So refreshing!
And to add my understanding:
English/Standard English - What I was brought up with, spoken in UK
American English - You know what I mean there
Wueen's English - Pronunciation, inflection and tone. Similar to Standard English
And yes I said UK not british isles to see what would happen...
:D
Queen's English generally refers to pronunciation, whereas Standard English refers to written language.
shareif one thing is "english" it is necesarialy also "british" so you could only say "english" as for "standard english". "american english" is strange too, but I can live with that.
shareWow, what a bunch of nerds...
share
Here's another difference: Aluminum/Aluminium.
Also, as I found when my work computer has an annoying habit of resetting to US English no matter what I (or the IT chimps) do - often when in standard english you end a word in "-ise" (such as novelise), americans swap the "s" for a "z".
And thats a "Zed", not a "Zee". ;-)
I read in an (English) English dictionary that the z or s in these circumstances are both correct in English English. The s is more prevalent because of the influence of the French upon the Brit's language - hence I use the z whenever I can!
share[deleted]
Or Catsup not sure how that is even close to ketchup? ( This should be the proper spelling. )
like wtf...
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Eeeeeh - that's a bilingual jungle :(
To me english is english spoken with different variations - like my english. As english is a world wide global language it is spoken different in different countries.
As english isn't my native language, my english is a mix between my school-english , Hollywood movies, a slice of Monthy Python English, some Douglas Adams English (because I only read THGTTG in the original language) and a lot of internet english and all that with a danish accent !!!
Several people around the world have english as native language, but it is spoken very different.
So - same but different :)
In Canada we also use the 'our' like in words such as colour, favour, etc. English.
shareOne of the one's which I find odd is the UK slang for a cigarette, and it's longer form (with an "got") on the end. I can't actually write them, as they are automatically "beeped" out, due to the derogatory American equivalents for the words, despite the fact they both have perfectly legitimate uses.
shareI've never heard of a "fag" (cigarette) being called a *beep* and I'm British :-S. A *beep* is food.
And the reason that English isn't called British is because it is originally the language of England, not necessarily Wales or Scotland. The native language of Wales is Welsh (although it's not spoken too much anymore, there is a bit of a revival happening) and I believe the Scots spoke some form of gaelic.
Neither have I! I should have worded that slightly better. When I mentioned it's longer form, with "got" at the end of it, it was as a sort of aftermention, since "fag" is the more commonly used, and "f*g*ots" could refer to either a bundle of sticks, as was the original derivation, or the perfectly revolting "food" if that's what they can be called (you may have guessed I can't stand the damn things!). How it became a derogatory term is an odd one though...
I'm not sure why people refer to British English as the language as opposed to just plain English, but you are quite right, Scotland and Wales both have their own languages. Welsh is still pretty common, with radio stations and TV channels specifically in Welsh. Gaelic is less common, though I believe it's usage, or a derivative is more common in Ireland than Scotland.
To clear this little mystery up we have to go back in time about 400 years. Most American spellings before they were standardised in the mid 19th century were in fact largely concurrent with the English written when many early pilgrims left for America in the 17th century.
Because America was so very far away, English as spoken in the British isles continued to develop through phrase and language migration from Europe. Those in America did not have such linguistically adaptable neighbours, so the language in the colonies ossified, only absorbing the odd Native Indian phrase like "wigwam" and some of the terms from Britain.
Language did not standardise in any uniform way until the time of mass migration in the 19th century, where better communication enabled terms to become universal in the English speaking world. Differences remained, and were enforced by a universal pan-American English lexicon established in the 19th century, which sought to bring reason into phonetic and written english. Hence American terms began to diverge again from British terms, which had evolved fairly constantly from the Middle Ages. Therefore America dropped the "u" in many words, kept the "z" but altered its phonetic sound and made innumerable other small changes to the written language which gradually affected speech and dialect as well. This sort of divergence affected British English as well, and around 1800-1850 British English became more influenced by softer European influences and became less recognisably Germanic, as well as other influences from around its Empire such a the word "thug" from India, a reference to the cult of thugee (yes thats right, from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom)
Queens English is an older term for Standard English, which became famous after the establishment of the BBC in 1922. There is no academic term "British English" in Britain, but it may have been mentioned in the US.
A "fag" is a reference to "fag-gots" deriving from the Middle Ages. Fag-gots (no dash in reality, imdb is a bit strict) were bundles of branches, that were used in fires (famously to burn heretics, actually) and the term is no doubt used because a cigarette is a bundle of tobacco lit at the end.
Gaelic isn't really spken at all in Scotland, except up north. I'm Scottish and I don't know a word of gaelic. one thing thatI find strange, are the differnt terms that are used in Americai.e.Trousers/pants,bin/trashcan, pavement/sidewalk.
"Warhorse. Warhead, F u c k 'em, man, White knuckle tight. Through black and white"
"England and America are two countries separated by a common language." -- George Bernard Shaw
share"...American terms began to diverge again from British terms, which had evolved fairly constantly from the Middle Ages. Therefore America dropped the 'u'..."
-- Huh? I'm sorry but the divergence of American terms from the British does not explain the dropping of the 'u'. There had to have been a REASON. You said "therefore...", implying a cause and effect. How does the divergence solely cause the dropping of the 'u' from the spelling?
Insufficient explanation, I'm afraid. However, this is not the place to get into that; we probably should be solely talking about Navy diving and Cuba Gooding Jr. and the film itself, lol. I will, however, postulate my own explanation for the dropping of the 'u': laziness.
Having said that, however, I'll grant that it's probably a good idea to drop it. The pronunciation begs the ecriture; 'labour' may be spelled 'labour' by Brits, but it's pronounced 'labor', by Brits and Yanks alike.
It also uses less ink and when you're printing a million newspapers a day, I guess it can save you money! Which could explain why the U.S. per capita GNP has been higher than Britain's ever since 'neighbour' on the right side of the pond began to be spelled 'neighbor' on the left side ... lol (of course, that begs the next efficiency: why not just spell it 'naybor' and not only save ink but make it so much easier for immigrants to learn English!).
Aksrv - ix-viii-ix may not have exactly "spelled/spelt"(!!!) it out but he does say something along the lines of there being a standardisation during the 19th century to differentiate American English from (British) English. I think the poster was inferring, and it stands to reason, that the spelling differences were made then. (Though I havent looked it up, perhaps askrv, this is something you could do if you are curious - then you can let us all know your findings :))
You are probably right that the letters were omitted because of ease of printing and I suppose you could suggest that there was some form of laziness (perhaps making things easier would be a better way of explaining it). Though I reckon a few professors, writers of dictionaries etc sat around a table and discussed it for ages trying to find a way forward for a new language in a new country. The letters were prossibly omitted because they were considered to be foreign influence in the English language and not needed.
I think I have heard it suggested before that American English is more English than English. (I hope that makes sense as it was a hard sentence for me to type!!! :) )
"We have really everything in common with America nowadays, except, of course, the language" Oscar Wilde
you wrote about "ix-viii-ix"'s post above -
that he/she didn't give a reason why the "u" was dropped - This was the reason given -
"....where better communication enabled terms to become universal in the English speaking world. Differences remained, and were enforced by a universal pan-American English lexicon established in the 19th century, WHICH SOUGHT TO BRING REASON INTO PHONETIC AND WRITTEN ENGLISH. Hence American terms began to diverge again from British terms, which had evolved fairly constantly from the Middle Ages. Therefore America dropped the "u" in many words, kept the "z" but altered its phonetic sound and made innumerable other small changes to the written language...." (Emphasis mine.)
It was to simplify spelling by dropping unnecessary letters such as a "u" in a diphthong "ou" that is pronounced like a simple "o".
But what I want to know is what was the sound of "z" before its phonetic sound was "altered" in the mid 19th century? It wasn't like snoring or a buzz? THAT remains weird and unexplained.
Mlumiere - I assume your post was directed at Askrv as opposed to me? - My intention was to reiterate "ix-viii-ix"'s reasoning for the change- as you did.
Regarding "Z" - my assumption was that its phonetic sound would have been the same as it is here in England (ie Zed) before the changes were made during the 19th century. Though I would imagine its fair to say, as there was little standardisation of the language in America at the time, that there was no definitive sound and I'd guess that there were significant regional variations in the English spoken across the country, anyway.
This whole right/wrong English/American discussion has gone on for decades and will go on for decades. It's a language that has been undergoing modifications for centuries and will go on changing and being spoken and spelled/spelt differently in different countries/cultures long after we are all dead.
GET OVER IT!
England as a country does not hold a patent on the English language. It is a mishmash of Germanic tribal tongues, the Angles, the Jutes, the Frisians, and the invading Normans. It is the most widely-spoken language on earth (Madarin is the most spoken first language, but more people speak English to some degree of fluency). The fact that there is a variation in how people speak English from place to place shouldn't come as a surprise. Hell, people in Britain take the piss out of each other's regional accents and local slang.
Having traveled/travelled, lived and worked all over the world I've heard this same snobby spoon-up-the-ass/arse discussion of who speaks English the right/wrong way over and over hundreds of times. Who drives on the "correct" side of the road, who holds their fork wrong, who has the most annoying accent (well it's the Kiwis actually) and believe me it's the same old point-counterpoint over and over. No one is right/wrong, just different. Go ahead, knock yourselves out, but for any English speakers isn't it great you can go to so many countries and be understood to some degree? The vast majority of other folks are limited to a small space.
Damn I feel better. Thanks/Cheers/Ta Muchly
England most certainly does 'hold a patent' on the English language, simply because 'English' means 'of England'. It's unarguable, so let's not waste time arguing that point.
However, it is arguable that American English has some spellings that are more authentic than the current English spellings of the same word. For example there was a trend here a couple of hundred years ago (after you chaps had left) for adding a 'u' to words such as color because the aristocracy thought it was cool to sound French (oh how things have changed). For some time here either the '_or' or '_our' were acceptable, but the French/Latin way won out in the end.
Also American English often has the better rules, for example we use 'll' in many words, but 'l' in others (scandalous, marvellous). There is no rule as to whether to use one or two 'l's, so you just have to learn the spelling of each word. Wouldn't it be simpler to go to the American English rule of only using a single 'l'?
My own view is that English will in due course start adopting the shorter and simpler American English forms, mainly because of (internet) ubiquity and because they're usually easier to spell! No doubt some Brits will grumble, but language evolves thus I agree with your enjoinder to 'Get Over It'.
Can someone put some light on Australian English and South African English? both English speaking countries.
All Asian countries including Indians (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, SriLanka, Singapore etc have adopted English from UK though.
Just for curiousity, I have seen many americans using "mens" as the plural form of 'man', and using 'you is' instead of 'you are'.
I haven't looked this up, but I'm sure the word "Colour" is spelled as "Color" in the US too. So there'd be loads of films with that word in the title...
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