MovieChat Forums > The Way of the Gun (2000) Discussion > Joe Sarno's shooting technique

Joe Sarno's shooting technique

posted 19 years ago by Kugelspritz
66 replies | jump to latest

Hey, I was just wondering, why does Joe Sarno shoot with that stance in the movie with his revolver?

It looks like a really antiqueted shooting technique not in use anymore, like something cops would have used in the 1940s-50's, which I figure just goes that much further, along with his revolver, to show how old school Jimmy Caan's charcter is.

But, I was also thinking that in the commentaries the director says Caan patterned his character's posture and walk to be that of an older man who had been shot, possibly multiple times, in his long career. So his rather stiff and awkward shooting stance could even reflect the fact that he might not have the range of motion to use more modern stances with his weapon anymore. Hell I know plenty of older guys, like my stepdad, who cant raise their arms or lift something parallel to the ground because of screwed up rotator cuffs. What do you think?

[–] crazydave682000 19 years ago

The technique looks like a modified point shooting method that was popular in the 60's and 70's back when stock guns had crappy small sights.
Caan and his "members only" posse were old school with .38 snub noses and wooden stock pump shotguns.
Every group had there own style, their own "way of the gun".
Caan and his old timers, the bodyguards with there ultra modern HK USP automatics, and Parker and Longbaugh with their classic gunfighter weapon the Colt M1911A1.

Dave

[–] r3volut1on 17 years ago

memeber's only posse, for real. that's a good one. i always crack wise about those guys when i watch this.

Tiocfaidh ar la.

[–] mrbeef523 17 years ago

First of all, they're not "HK USP automatics," they're H&K USP .45s; second of all, they're not "Colt M1911A1s," they're Colt 1911s. Know your firearms before you pretend like you know anything.

My only problem with the last shootout was that they placed an unrealistic amount of ammo in the 1911s. Colt 1911 pistols have only 7 rounds in a single-stack magazine. Several times, Mr. Parker and Mr. Longbaugh fired between 7 and 12 rounds at a time without reloading. Also, Mr. Longbaugh doesn't know how to hold his H&K G3 for *beep*

[–] r3volut1on 17 years ago

that was a galil, not a g3.

Tiocfaidh ar la.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] mythical-1 17 years ago

Amazing, your replying to a 2 year old post and telling someone they don't know anything about firearms? I doubt they will come back to check, so much for being an expert on firearms or you'd know that Mr Longbaugh was using a Galil ARM .308 smartass.

[–] UselessInfoKing 17 years ago

amen mythical. i remember when i saw this in the theatre, i was surprised because that was the first time i had seen a galil in a movie. and as far as counting rounds i have 8 round magazines for my colt commander. also, maybe parker and longbaugh were actually using Para-ordnance pistols. some of them look like regular 1911 type colts but can have up to 14 round magazines

[–] mythical-1 17 years ago

I've seen Galils in a few movies, Micro Galil was used in "Shoot Em' Up" at one scene, Steven Seagulls Mercenary for justice takes place in South Africa which many of the characters are using R4's and R5's (South African version of the Galil), Michael Manns Heat during the bank robbery, one of the characters uses a Galil ARM .223 with what appears to be a 50 round magazine.

I myself own a Galil, it's a great firearm. I have many friends who have lack of knowledge with firearms who say it looks like an AK47, then again anything with a curved magazine looks like an AK47 according to them. I guess they can't see the differences although it uses the basic design of the AK with the gas piston.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] bert-114 17 years ago

No, they were definitely not para ordnance pistols or any form of double-stack 1911. The fat frame of those guns would've been easily picked out.

They were ordinary Colt 1911s from the factory (apart from 9mm modification for easier blank firing, apparently).

[–] jericho1337ocelot 17 years ago

We don't know for sure if the 1911's were made by Colt. There's a lot of companies that make 1911's, and they are available in every possible color (blue steel, stainless, etc) and configuration.

We also don't know for sure if the USP's the bodyguards used were the .45 version. Unless there's enough of a closeup to the guns that you could read ".45ACP" on the slide, or if the width of the barrel was in the same shot as a ruler; there is no way of knowing.

[–] bert-114 17 years ago

Maybe you don't know if they were made by Colt, but some of us do. You can recognize the walnut grips and the Colt medallions. They are blued Series 70 Colt 1911s, very easy to tell for anyone who has seen their share of 1911s.

[–] jericho1337ocelot 17 years ago

No bert, you're just assuming that they are made by Colt. Perhaps they had some Colt parts, ever think of that? I have a 1911 that I wouldn't consider a Colt 1911, because it has 6 Wilson parts, 5 Colt Parts, and the rest of it is Springfield. It looks exactly like Parker's. I have an old style walnut grip that was modeled after the old Colt grips that wasn't made by Colt. Looks can be decieving, this is very easy to know for anyone who has seen their share of 1911s. Maybe you'll know too some day.

[–] bert-114 17 years ago

Of course it's possible, but what's more likely? That they took some other 1911s that were identical to Colts and put Colt grips on them, or that they just used Colt 1911s? Every part is Colt S70, why would it be anything else? Is there any reason for them using a hodgepodge of parts when they could just buy factory guns and convert them to 9mm blanks?

This is just farfetched. It's like debating the brand of a car and saying 'well, they could've just changed the body and put on new logos' - I don't think so, it's probably the car it ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE.

Occam's Razor, ever heard of it?

[–] marshaul 16 years ago

These are 1911s you're talking about, not cars. Do you even have a 1911? You can't tell by any combination of finish, configuration, and grips what the mfg. is. These things are changed out more often than they are left stock on most 1911s.

[–] heyjohnny40-1 17 years ago

Listen to dvd commentary. The guns were 9mm pistols. 9mm feeds better than 45 acp blanks. The wood on the grip panels looks like the same wood grips colt used in the 1980's on their series 70 pistols. Might sound a little far fetched on the wood grips, but I was a user of colt guns back at that time. My best. Hope that helps. Rich

[–] silly_dil 17 years ago

I really do love posts like this. He's clearly not an expert by any means unless he has acquired considerable knowledge on pistols without even accidentally learning the tremendous visual differences alone between a G3 and a Galil. Also, his corrections to the original names of the pistols aren't purely semantics.. not even really corrections. That one sentence is great too.
"Know your firearms before you pretend like you know anything".... Makes no sense at all. If he knew his firearms like you claim he doesn't, why would he have to pretend anything!? :)

I love this movie for its attention to detail and what I'm assuming is a realistic portrayal of violence since its alarming and gut wrenching. (never been in or around a real fire fight) My one beef is when Longbaugh is pinned with Parker in the mexican brothel room and he lays down cover fire through the walls with the galil. I've never fired one before but I think it'd be damn near impossible to carve a perfect stripe of bullet holes along the wall firing full auto with what is it, like a 7.62 calibre? That's one sturdy shoulder and a magazine filled with flawless bullets and an immaculately clean barrel etc etc etc.

[–] subase 13 years ago

Got to admit that peed me off. The whole unloading a clip into a wall in a straight line, with a .308 rifle no less.

I thought that was pretty dodgy, but what do I know.

Anyway here's the page for this film in the internet movie gun database.
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Way_of_the_Gun,_The

[–] tempestv 17 years ago

those were not chambered in .45acp. In 9mm these guns hold between 9 and 11 rounds. with one in the tube, that's 12.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] JimC214 16 years ago

1911A1 is the correct designation for the pistol. The original 1911 had a straight back strap. The 1911A1 has the curved back strap and the A1 was the new name for it. Those were A1s in the Movie.

[–] doodleboy 16 years ago

also, according to the commentary, they tried to edit the movie so that Parker & Longbaugh never shot more than 7 times without reloading.

if they didn't show it once or twice, it can be implied, since they showed it a lot otherwise.

[–] bogwart-1 16 years ago

Bloody Yanks. If you knew half as much about life as you know about guns the world would be a happier place.

[–] longbaughs 16 years ago

Was this comment needed or relevant?

No it wasn't Mr Smart Arse.

[–] bogwart-1 16 years ago

If I want your opinion I'll check the dunny, mate.

[–] bear022013-588-696101 15 years ago

I live for the day that the IRA takes over you "Girlie boys."

[–] aGuiltySoul 16 years ago

I'm a "yank" and I know almost nothing about guns. These people are aficionados. It doesn't make them criminals.

"I'd never ask you to trust me. It's the cry of a guilty soul."

[–] bogwart-1 16 years ago

You call 'em aficionados, I call 'em wackjobs. I don't suppose for a second that they are criminals. It's just another form of pornography for them.

[–] longbaughs 16 years ago

Ah, just another wanker revelling in their ignorance. Whatever, geeze.

[–] bogwart-1 16 years ago

Do you always have this problem with your English tenses? Oh well, I suppose once you really get into English for the Retarded 101 more will become clear to you. You should really try to get a grip on your arrogance though; it doesn't sit too well with ignorance.

That is all; you may go now.

[–] killerprodigy 16 years ago

Englishman, right?

How do you like cutting your steak with a spoon?

[–] bogwart-1 16 years ago

I thought you Merkins didn't like generalisations? If that's the best you can do I suggest you stick to stuffing burgers down your hippo neck.

At least we still have steak, unlike you maroons who subsist on the sh!t scraped off the floor and the diseased carcasses of animals raised by the likes of Tyson and Cargill.

[–] killerprodigy 16 years ago

Well, at least we're not castrated you guys on your diseased pathetic little island.

[–] bogwart-1 16 years ago

Haha. What a funny person you are. Now cut along, little man. I don't have time to play with imbeciles right now. And it must be getting close to your bedtime anyway.

[–] deltajvliet 16 years ago

Why the hostility?

He came home and fell down an elevator shaft onto some bullets.

[–] lartrak 16 years ago

Damn Brits. If you knew half as much about life as you did about tea, the world would be a happier place.

[–] bogwart-1 16 years ago

That's rich, coming from a bunch of upstarts. We had the world's biggest empire, and what have you got? Third-world standards in a bankrupt country. However much my country irritates me from time to time, there's always something to laugh at on your side of the pond.

[–] lartrak 16 years ago

"We had the world's biggest empire, and what have you got?"

I'd just like to let you know I approve of your self-mockery.

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] lartrak 16 years ago

That's heavy, man.

[–] User556 12 years ago

>We had the world's biggest empire<

Yeah, right, because conquering a land and enslaving its people in order to steal their things is something to be proud of.....

I for one wish to offer my personal thanks for your nation leaving much of the world, most notably sub-Saharan Africa and Central Asia, in a horrible mess when you abandoned your empire.

Hell, it was you guys who created the nation of Iraq out of three groups of people who loathe one another. Great job!

And what do you have to be proud of now??? That you might be the last turd in the bowl when the Eurozone collapses?

>what have you got?<

We landed on the Moon.

We developed most of the seminal technologies of the 20th Century. Including the computer you are using, the internet, and this website. Actually, it would probably be easier to list the things Americans DIDN'T invent.

[–] bogwart-1 12 years ago

You lot are like a dog with a bone; a bone you'll never chew through. All the colonial powers drew maps (for the first time) showing new national borders. There is no doubt whatsoever that with hindsight this was not a good idea, because it did, as you say, ignore local tribal/religious affiliations. However as neither you not I had anything to do with that I'm damned if I'm going to stress out because some little *beep* wants to score a couple of cheap points. So go sit on it.

The eurozone is not going to collapse. Forget all the BS your MSM tells you. The USD will lose reserve currency status before that happens and then you will have nobody to blame. Ever since Wall Street and the Treasury screwed up they've been looking to put the blame elsewhere, but it belongs in your country. Right now your national debt is $684,700 per family, with net assets of $4,890 per family. Those are real-time figures.Go and suck up some more food stamps, boy - after all, 46+ million of your fellow americans do just that.

And why is that? Because you tools just threw away $4 trillion messing around with wars you can't win. And you now have this twat Romney who believes he can spend another trillion or so on "defence" without telling you where the money will come from, which is Social Security (already funded to 2036 because it makes a profit), Medicare, Medicaid and soft targets like that. In the meantime your country's infrastructure is falling to bits around you, budgets for teachers and cops have been slashed and all the rest. Why? Because twat Obama prefers that you spend 53c of every tax dollar on military spending. Morons.

Finally, if we had to list the things Americans didn't invent I'd be here for the rest of the day. The computer yes, after us and on a small scale, ie the PC. The internet yes, except you wouldn't be able to use it without the world wide web, invented by an Englishman. This website? Any bunch of idiots can put a website together. But IMDb was started by a Brit.

Surely you must have something better to do than go off-topic on an old thread just to have a dig at another poster? If so, go and do it.

[–] User556 12 years ago

Found a nerve I suppose.

>Surely you must have something better to do than go off-topic on an old thread just to have a dig at another poster?<

Ah, so after doing much the same thing for years in other threads, including this very one, you cry foul and play the big man. How ironic. And like most European xenophobes, you know nowhere near as much about American internal politics as you think you do. But ignorant xenophobic braggarts are all the same, inventing cute stories to bolster their bigotry.

FYI, the U.S. spends 4.7% of GDP and not quite 30% of federal budget on the military, including the cost of the war. The $0.53/$1.00 must come from you mistakenly (well, ignorantly) believing that the federal *discretionary* budget is the entire federal budget, it's not. I wish we spent less, but sadly making up for the defense shortcomings of the European members of NATO who have been failing to meet their treaty obligations costs us a great deal of money. In effect we are subsidizing continental Europe's democratic-socialist utopia. It is a topic of a great deal of discussion here, as is the war. But you wouldn't know that, because it is a great deal easier for you to hate 300,000,000 people when you believe they are hive mind and are all the same.

But, I'm sure you have a welfare or soccer riot to be at, so feel free to take your time mustering a response. Or you could really surprise everyone and show you've almost become a big man.....

[–] bogwart-1 12 years ago

Did you join this site just to comment on this film, or just to have a pop at me? Either way, you're an idiot if you believe you can score any points that way. Found a nerve? Right. Heh.

You have no idea what I know about domestic american politics. A lot more than you imagine, naturally. Unlike you, people outside your pustulent cüntry know things which remain unreported in your MSM.

You want to challenge my 53¢ figure? Have at it, there are well over a million hits on the internet. Try this, just for you: http://tinyurl.com/loser556

NATO and treaty obligations my arse. What does NATO have to do with Afghanistan? With Libya? With Syria? With, possibly, Iran? NATO became redundant with the Warsaw Pact, with the fall of the Soviets. It's only because you lot of homicidal psychopaths wanted financial and moral help that NATO got roped in. You have no moral authority and you have shown your enemies just how useless you are by spending $4trillion on wars you can't win.

In fact you haven't actually won anything since 1945, so I'd keep quiet if I was you.

You're equally mistaken if you think I hate all americans, too. I loathe and detest your revolting government, and equally those like you with your head firmly wedged in your arse who cannot see what is happening to the USA. But I correspond daily with a number of americans, Republicans as well as Democrats, and I have no overwhelming animus towards you.

Now kindly go and do something. Jump off a bridge, or something useful like that. Just bugger off. You're not getting any change from me, so there's little point you bleating away when I'm not listening.

[–] User556 12 years ago

>You're not getting any change from me<

I know, because you are an ignorant bigot, it's just fun watching you display your ignorance.

>so there's little point you bleating away when I'm not listening.<

You felt the need to respond after getting back from the welfare riot, so apparently, you are listening.

Cheers!

[–] bear022013-588-696101 15 years ago

If Nigeria or Arizona's citizens attacked your country,what would you do?
Call a Bobbie? Ha!

[–] bogwart-1 15 years ago

I don't know what a Bobbie is; we've never had a Bobbie. I suppose if we were attacked by those scary, scary countries/states we'd just have to run away, or ask you for your advice.

You're certainly full of it.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] bogwart-1 15 years ago

Ah, a typical Yank - full of jealousy because they've screwed up their chance to be top dog and are now nothing but a nation of losers.

I met a lot of Yanks and their general configuration is approximately that of a small whale, or a hippo. Hardly surprising that they haven't won any conflicts since WW2. Oh, there was the Invasion of Panama, I suppose. Everyone else kicks your capacious backsides.

Get over yourself little boy, grow up and learn how the world works.

Generalisation is usually specious, and you're going to need all the friends you can muster fairly soon. Interesting that you call us losers, when we own far more of the US than the US owns of us.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] bogwart-1 15 years ago

Every time you go to England? I doubt whether you've got a passport, let alone used it to go where the big scary terrorists are.

There's really not much point speaking to you because you don't have a clue what you're talking about. We had the biggest empire in the world, and it wasn't theft. It wasn't genocide either, which together with traditional American hypocrisy is how you dispossessed the Native Americans.

And another retard who thinks his ancestors (note that you can't claim any credit aince you weren't even born) won the second World War. What a moron. Why don't you take your head out of your backside and learn a few things? It won't save you or your country, but at least you'll have a better idea why you are suffering.

Go and lick some food stamps, boy, and wonder why it is that if America is such a great country you're not getting a share of it. That's all I have to say to you; your ignorance and arrogance are sickening. People like you are the reason why your country is so widely loathed all around the world.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] s_k_a_d_i 16 years ago

I know I'm replying to a 1 1/2 year old comment, but those were 1911A1s. Those were the 1911s made from 1924-onward, with the curved backstrap and lengthened )now standard) thumb safety, as opposed to the original's flat backstrap and little nub of a safety.

Both of those 1911A1s were 9mm anyway, holding generally 9 rounds in the magazine. 9mm is a lot easier for the actors to shoot with the short amount of training they got while filming. And pretty much every single movie ever made that features a gunfight (at least with semi- and full-auto weapons) goes overboard with ammo capacity due to continuity issues after they cut and reload the guns with a full mag before the next take instead of the correct amount of ammo.

Longbaugh did not have a G3, nor was one present in the entire movie. It was a Galil ARM sniper model in 7.62x51.

The markings weren't visible on the USPs, nor could I get a decent enough look at the muzzle to determine if they were actually .45 instead of .40 or 9mm, so you can have that one.

I don't mean to be a bitch, but "Know your firearms before you pretend like you know anything" sounds so cute coming from someone messing up or getting overly analytical about firearms in a movie. Nice try, though.

[–] crazydave682000 15 years ago

Thanks everyone for defending me, for something I posted two plus years ago. The flamer has done one whole post, on IMDB, so I find his "know yor fireams" comments kind of funny.

Dave

[–] silverr8c 15 years ago

A lot of good info and miss information about guns here, I didn't look closely at what 1911 was being used, I already erased it from my DVR but liked it so much I am going to nexflix the DVD so I can't verify JimC214 is correct but I'll go along with him till I get a chance to see the gun again.

The main reason I wanted to comment is I worked as a cop from 1970 to 1990 when I retired and I held my gun the same way Sarno did in the movie and still hold it the same way when I go to the range. Maybe things changed but I always hit what I shoot at and usually hit the center 10 ring more often than not, but I see a lot of gangster sideways shooters at the range that can't hit the paper

[–] daakpunK 13 years ago

haha my thoughts exactly

the realism of the final shootout scene is pretty unreal when you compare it to hollywood's track record. the way they kept laying rounds dr and getting small and their room clearing techniques and their use of barrel discipline was refreshing. i would put the final shootout in my top10 shootouts for sure

[–] marshaul 9 years ago

LOL@ this guy, who makes nit-picky "corrections" about nomenclature, and then misidentifies the obvious Galil (which it definitely is, not a G3). Something about "know your firearms before you pretend like you know anything".

[–] JudgeNotLestYeBeJudgeReinhold 8 years ago

Those were Colt MK IV Series 70 pistols, jagaloon. They were also 9mm. You're pretty full of yourself, aren't you? Douche

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] bear022013-588-696101 15 years ago

I think you are in a world of your own kid!

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] deltajvliet 13 years ago

Gotta bump this thread.

It's been mentioned, but Sarno seemed to use the really, really old school point shooting technique (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_shooting). As far as I know, no present day officer or soldier would ever use it , but it's a nice throwback to yesteryear, and I think that's all it was.

As for guns: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Way_of_the_Gun,_The

I can promise you a day of reckoning that you will not live long enough to never forget.

[–] FEF312 13 years ago

A Point Shooting system similar to Rex Applegate's was adopted by the California Highway Patrol (CHip's)at the suggestion of then CHip Intructor Lou Chiodo. I believe the Massachusetts State Police also use a form of point shooting, introduced by then trainer Mike Conti.

[–] marshaul 9 years ago

Point shooting can't easily be seen by watching another. All point shooting refers to is sightless shooting. For instance, I practice point shooting (in addition to sighted shooting) from a variety of positions, including the normal ready position I would used for sighted shooting. Point shooting can be used in any stance (with sufficient practice).

What you guys are really seeing is his stance (which is certainly a component of technique). Sarno and his guys mostly use the older isosceles and Weaver stances (it looks to me like Sarno uses both at different points). Parker and Longbaugh are using a more modern technique, what is most often called the "fighting stance".

In fact, while 1911s themselves may be "old school" or "classic gunfighters' guns", Parker and Longbaugh's tactics, movement, and weapon handling are decidedly up-to-date as of 2000. Given that plenty of special forces types still prefer 1911s as secondary weapons, we aren't (IMO) told anything by P&L's preference for 1911s over the more "modern" USP displayed by the bodyguards. Not only that, but 1911s are more comfortable for IWB (in the waistband) concealed carry than most other full-size platforms, due to their relatively slim grip.

Compare also carry styles and corresponding attire,

1. The old guys carry snubbies, mostly in their pockets or shoved into their pants – and they dress like retirees.

2. P&L carry full-size 1911s in modern, civilian-style IWB holsters, in casual attire.

3. The bodyguards carry even larger USPs in shoulder holsters, underneath business suits.

[–] !!!deleted!!! (12961003) 8 years ago

Thanks mashaul.
Finally some sound facts and reasoning. I tend to point shoot by preference, depending on the gun. Some, like a Ruger .22 bull barrel and Beretta 92FS, are easy to point shoot with accuracy.
Editors did mess up a bit with the added fire coming from Jeffers' (Taye Diggs) gun at the motel shootout though by not adding it some times when he fired his gun.

Very good movie.