MovieChat Forums > The Patriot (2000) Discussion > In defense of the British

In defense of the British


Over recent years, I've had an interest in the American War for Independence. Up until a few years ago, the little information I knew about it came from schoolbooks and Hollywood. i.e. Films like The Patriot, which I think is a wonderful film, but both of these sources have vivified the British, but after doing some studying of my own beyond those sources, I can understand King George III's point of view more clearly. I can admit, I don't know everything about the American Revolutionary War, so I welcome others feedback. With this thread, I only wish to be educated, and perhaps educate as well.

At the time of the American Revolution, Great Britain had been in one war or another for fifty years and was drowning in debt. Over in London, Parliament felt that Americans should help out by paying their fair share, and King George III agreed. After all, Great Britain had spent plenty of money fighting in American Colonies for the good of the people, and the crown was still supporting a British Army to help stop Indian attacks on the American frontier. Great Britain felt it was their right to collect payment.

17th Century interest in the U.S. appears to be more financial than a matter of pride. My impression is that the 17th century British were not looking for power and control over the American Colonies, but financial support to recoup the cost of defending the American colonies from the French during the Seven Years' War and from Native American tribes.


In regards of Native Americans: Since boyhood, one of the most popular grips of white guilt I have ever heard and read has been the fact that "White men invaded this land, and stole it from Native Americans". Well, I learned something very interesting through my studies of the American Revolution:

Many American Colonists had plan to invade Indian country, but Great Britain made it illegal with the Proclamation of 1763. London thought it was fair and safe to reserve those lands for the Natives who had always lived and hunted there. Now when I first read this, I thought perhaps the British Empire was showing compassion towards Native American tribes, and perhaps that was one of their many reasons for doing so, but it also seemed like the Proclamation of 1763 was a cost-cutting measure given all the money problems they were having.

By prohibiting colonists from moving across the Appalachians (which is the basic line), the British hoped to keep the Indian/Colonist clashes to a minimum, thereby lessening their obligation to protect the frontier, which was a huge complaint of the colonists after the French and Indian War.

George Washington agreed with plenty of other American colonial settlers, who thought that the Proclamation of 1763 was a law that unfairly limited their rights. Too many men saw those new lands and the idea of settling west, out of the reach of the crown, as being too attractive to pass by no matter who was in the way. They invaded Indian country anyhow, and that was one of the many, many reasons the American Colonists went to war with England.

One of the reasons why so many Native American tribes sided with the British Empire during the war, and fought along side with them was because they knew the United Kingdom was going to respect their land and rights. So if King George III's army won, perhaps Natives would have their own Independent states in the United States of America today, and lots of suffering and war could have been avoided.


Many black slaves also joined the British Army because they were promised freedom after the war. Infact, it appeared that England actually planned to end slavery, and they finally did in 1832, but the rich, slave-owning American Colonists however did not have any desire to end it. Again, if England won, slavery would have ended much sooner, which leads me to believe that there would have been no American Civil War since slavery would have been made illegal, and with a defeat over the American Colonists, the point would have been made that only suffering and anarchy comes from Revolution, and black people could have been given equal rights much sooner, and not suffered for as long as they did.

When England did abolish slavery in 1832, they outlawed the practice throughout the British Empire, by Act of Parliment, not by any civil war. That may have prompted a short lived rebellion in the southern colonies, with no sympathy from northern or western colonys.

But with the African slave trade ending in the 1830's, we might be without some promient African-Americans today, because their ancesters would have never left Africa. On the other hand, what would American society be like today if the massive casualties of the American Civil War had desendents. With about over 600,000 Americans killed during the American Civil War, we might be looking at 30 to 40 million Americans influencing American society over the last 155 years, who were simply never born.


In closing, England desired a living, breathing Constitution that changed with the times. The American Colonists however did not desire such a thing. They did plan to have a Constitution, but a unchangeable one. So who knows for sure how things would have ended up for the United States of America if King George III's army won - Better? Worst? The same?


I hope to have a nice chat about all this and hopefully learn more from the people that know more about this topic then I do. Thank you for reading.

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England, Great Britain, British, which is it? You're jumping about a bit. Btw. Slavery Abolition Act in the UK was 1833.


I just can't finish anythi

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I stand corrected. Thank you. It's all of the above in response to your query.

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Over recent years, I've had an interest in the American War for Independence. Up until a few years ago, the little information I knew about it came from schoolbooks and Hollywood. i.e. Films like The Patriot, which I think is a wonderful film, but both of these sources have vilified the British, but after doing some studying of my own beyond those sources, I can understand King George III's point of view more clearly. I can admit, I don't know everything about the American Revolutionary War, so I welcome others feedback. With this thread, I only wish to be educated, and perhaps educate as well.

At the time of the American Revolution, the Kingdom of Great Britain had been in one war or another for fifty years and was drowning in debt. Over in London, Parliament felt that Americans should help out by paying their fair share, and King George III agreed. After all, Great Britain had spent plenty of money fighting in American Colonies for the good of the people, and the crown was still supporting a British Army to help stop Indian attacks on the American frontier. Great Britain felt it was their right to collect payment.

17th Century interest in the U.S. appears to be more financial than a matter of pride. My impression is that the 17th century British were not looking for power and control over the American Colonies, but financial support to recoup the cost of defending the American colonies from the French during the Seven Years' War and from Native American tribes.


In regards of Native Americans: Since boyhood, one of the most popular grips of white guilt I have ever heard and read has been the fact that "White men invaded this land, and stole it from Native Americans". Well, I learned something very interesting through my studies of the American Revolution:

Many American Colonists had plan to invade Indian country, but the Kingdom of Great Britain made it illegal with the Proclamation of 1763. London thought it was fair and safe to reserve those lands for the Natives who had always lived and hunted there. Now when I first read this, I thought perhaps the British Empire was showing compassion towards Native American tribes, and perhaps that was one of their many reasons for doing so, but it also seemed like the Proclamation of 1763 was a cost-cutting measure given all the money problems they were having.

By prohibiting colonists from moving across the Appalachians (which is the basic line), the British hoped to keep the Indian/Colonist clashes to a minimum, thereby lessening their obligation to protect the frontier, which was a huge complaint of the colonists after the French and Indian War.

George Washington agreed with plenty of other American colonial settlers, who thought that the Proclamation of 1763 was a law that unfairly limited their rights. Too many men saw those new lands and the idea of settling west, out of the reach of the crown, as being too attractive to pass by no matter who was in the way. They invaded Indian country anyhow, and that was one of the many, many reasons the American Colonists went to war with the Kingdom of Great Britain.

One of the reasons why so many Native American tribes sided with the British Empire during the war, and fought along side with them was because they knew the Kingdom of Great Britain was going to respect their land and rights. So if King George III's army won, perhaps Natives would have their own Independent states in the United States of America today, and lots of suffering and war could have been avoided.


Many black slaves also joined the British Army because they were promised freedom after the war. Infact, it appeared that Great Britain actually planned to end slavery, and they finally did in 1833, but the rich, slave-owning American Colonists however did not have any desire to end it. Again, if Great Britain won, slavery would have ended much sooner, which leads me to believe that there would have been no American Civil War since slavery would have been made illegal, and with a defeat over the American Colonists, the point would have been made that only suffering and anarchy comes from Revolution, and black people could have been given equal rights much sooner, and not suffered for as long as they did.

When Great Britain did abolish slavery in 1833, they outlawed the practice throughout most of the British Empire, by Act of Parliment, not by any civil war. That may have prompted a short lived rebellion in the southern colonies, with no sympathy from northern or western colonys.

But with the African slave trade ending in the 1830's, we might be without some promient African-Americans today, because their ancesters would have never left Africa. On the other hand, what would American society be like today if the massive casualties of the American Civil War had desendents. With about over 600,000 Americans killed during the American Civil War, we might be looking at 30 to 40 million Americans influencing American society over the last 155 years, who were simply never born.


In closing, the Kingdom of Great Britain desired a living, breathing Constitution that changed with the times. The American Colonists however did not desire such a thing. They did plan to have a Constitution, but a unchangeable one. So who knows for sure how things would have ended up for the United States of America if King George III's army won - Better? Worst? The same?


I hope to have a nice chat about all this and hopefully learn more from the people that know more about this topic then I do. Thank you for reading.


There you go, fixed a few bits for you.

England is not interchangeable with Great Britain regarding a subject like this.
There wasn't a United Kingdom at the time of AWI.


I just can't finish anythi

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until the beginning of the 20th cent, when people said England they meant the UK, as Scotland, wales Ireland had all become part of England under the English crown.

trashing books is like the Special Olympics even if you win & burn them all you are still a retard.

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until the beginning of the 20th cent, when people said England they meant the UK, as Scotland, wales Ireland had all become part of England under the English crown.


Oi DOPEY, 1707, 1801, 1922. There's your clues, now get educated!!!!!

I just can't finish anythi

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[deleted]

I'm late, but: REPORTED.



Asshat.






'Then' and 'than' are different words - stop confusing them.

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England, Great Britain, British, which is it? You're jumping about a bit. Btw. Slavery Abolition Act in the UK was 1833


Actually, I think you will find that referred to the abolition of slavery throughout the British Empire.

Slavery was effectively abolished in England in 1772 as a result of the Somerset v Stewart (1772) case.

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There's a subtle anti-English sentiment in US culture that remains even to this day. For example, how many Americans do you hear claiming to be "English American"? Not many.

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Thank you turkeez. I appreciate that. If I ever repost that on another forum, your corrections will improve it greatly. I like to be as historically accurate and grammarly accurate as possible, and I kick myself when I'm not. :-)

TabacoSmoker - I have. I do all the time infact, and I usually get chewed out over it online by English people. lol. My Grandmother is from England, so I consider myself England-American or European-American, and have even called England "The old country" or my "Mother land". And for years, I've hoped to go "home" for a visit. But since plenty of English people have scolded me for typing stuff like that, I won't dare say it if I ever can go to England, but that's what I'll be thinking when I'm there IF I can ever go there. :-(

I'm also a Southern, and in the South, where tradition is practiced, we still have plenty of English customs that were passed down from us from generation to generation.

In all honesty, I'd probably be an American Loyalist if I lived during the American Revolution.. I type that because of my views now. I looked at the people on Occupy Wallstreet for example and I just shook my head. I'm not happy with my income either, but causing drama is not going to change anything. I don't like drama, violence, and anarchy, and I hate it when peace is disturbed. I also consider myself a very loyal person and loyalty is a trait I proudly have.

Whenever I saw the people on Occupy Wallstreet, and saw them disrespect the N.Y.P.D., I could truly understand how American Loyalists must have felt in the 1700's.

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You can come over anytime you like and call yourself English/American. Especially if you come to the North-East of England. We adopt anybody, even southeners(cockneys) who happen to come up now and then!

How does the man who drives the Snowplough get to work?

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Thank you! I hope I can go one day.

I learned something new today - I was aware the British promised slaves their freedom if they fought for them, and I did know that there were black men who fought for the Continental Army, but it was never an official thing. i.e. Masters would allow their slaves to fight, and local militias would let free black men to fight for them, but letting black men fight was never something put down on paper, or made official. There was talk at one point of allowing black men to legally and officially serve in George Washington's Army, as well as hiring recruiters to go out and recruit black men, free and slave, but George Washington and the Continental Congress rejected the idea, and George Washington referred to it as "wretchedness".

Honestly, the more I study this war, the more I seem to favour the British.

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There's a subtle anti-English sentiment in US culture that remains even to this day. For example, how many Americans do you hear claiming to be "English American"? Not many.


Wrong, 43% of all Americans declared English as their ancestry in the 1980 census making it the largest ethnic group in the USA; however since the 2000 census added 'American' as a category many English families have been here so long that they self-defined themselves as 'American'.

Most American surnames are English, most town, cities and roads are named after English ones and the top ten surnames are all English.





I choose to believe what my religion programs me to believe.

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I believe there are many more Americans of German ancestry.

"A real man would rather bow down to a strong woman than dominate a weak one"

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[deleted]

I'd be curious to see a citation for that 1980 claim. Did you mean 43 million people? That I could see, but not 43% (which in 1980 would have been about 90 million people).

For the record, "American" has actually been a census category for a long time, much longer than 2000. Also, many families altered their last names (or had them altered by the Ellis Island officials) when they immigrated here, so just having an English-sounding name doesn't guarantee British ancestry,

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I've done some digging into this and the original comment appears to be pretty much spot on. In the 1980 census the largest defined group was of Anglo American, higher than Irish and German ancestry. However in 2000 just American was added. A massive amount of families who used to identify themselves as Anglo American then started calling themselves American. This wasn't the case for those with Irish or German roots.

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[deleted]

I don't think we are anti-English. I believe that what you perceive as rejection is merely the fact that England and America are so intertwined, Americans think of England as their homeland, and not really worth mentioning. Other countries seem more exotic, so Americans embrace their ancestry more from these countries. Personally, I embrace them all, including England. I have traced my ancestry to England, Ireland, France, Germany, Turkey, Sweden, and even Egypt.



The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient.

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Queen_Beth_the_Fair :

I have traced my ancestry to England, Ireland, France, Germany, Turkey, Sweden, and even Egypt.



But no Native American that you keep bleating about. LOL

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Ironic, today the U.S. is contributing most of the resources to Europe's defense. Maybe we should be asking for taxes...

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I think you are missing one the key issues. The colonials resented being taxed by a parliament in which they had no representation. In fact, that was one of the reasons for the formation of the sons of liberty. I also think you totally misunderstand the constitution if you think it is inflexible. While changes to it are difficult, the language itself is stated in very general terms, which allows congress a great deal of flexibility in implementing laws (and thats not always a good thing).

As far as the US remaining a part of the Empire, its certainly possible that things would have turned out better. Its also possible things might have turned out worse. Perhaps resentment builds in the US and many americans refuse to fight alongside the brits in the World Wars. Or the british place restrictions on immigration and movement west, and the US doesn't become the industrial power it did, thus allowing germany to take a more dominant position in the 20th century. Perhaps another bloodier rebellion occurs later. Perhaps the british are more hesitant to free the slaves when they did given a large population of slave owners in the American colonies. Maybe the American revolution was a force for change both inside and outside of the empire, and without it, the monarchy remains in place longer and is more resistant to the changes that occured.

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Oh, I don't know. Relations with Australia have always been good.

How does the man who drives the Snowplough get to work?

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Hey I know you, you're that idiot from the Zulu message board. Do you just troll every single film forum that has to do with the British fighting other countries? Geeze man, broaden your interests, stop being a patriotic idiot.

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Were you addressing me?
I don't recall ever being on the Zulu board, though I do recognise your username from somewhere.
I do frequent the Braveheart board and this one. #as for anything else please read below!


You are entitled to my opinion, whether you want it or not!!

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Hmm, yes you're not the idiot from the Zulu message board. Can't remember exactly where I saw you, but I do remember that you're an idiot.

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Oh wait, now I remember. You're that idiot from the Alien message board who kept arguing about how Dallas wasn't a moron. Yeah he was a moron, and so are you.

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Ah, now I remember you. Are you alright? Did the treatment go well? Are you cured?

Anyway, I hope you are all better now and your road to recovery wasn't a difficult one. I won't reply to you again as I don't want to induce flashbacks to what was a difficult and dark time in your life.

You are entitled to my opinion, whether you want it or not!!

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Lol are those really the best insults you can think of? Put some more effort into it brit boy.

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Insults? Why would I be insulting you? What could I possibly gain from it?
You contacted me out of the blue. We have since established where we know each other from. End of story. No insults necessary as far as I'm concerned.


You are entitled to my opinion, whether you want it or not!!

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Sure it's necessary. You're a dumbass, and you need to be reminded of that.

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So by being insulting I remind myself that I'M a dumbass!

Neat!

Keep taking those pills.



You are entitled to my opinion, whether you want it or not!!

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The pill thing is so lame kid. It wasn't funny the first time you said it nor insulting. Now try again. Go ahead, I'm waiting. :)

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The colonials resented being taxed by a parliament in which they had no representation.

Yes, but most Britons had no representation either, it was the accepted norm of the day. Only the wealthy landowners had a vote or a chance to stand for election. And again it was hardly unreasonable for the govt to expect the colonists to at least pay something for their defence- armies cost money and the French etc could still represent a threat ad had to be kept at bay. Not to mention hostile Indians. The USA wouldn't have remained part of the Empire a such, it would have attained dominion status sometimes within the 19th century and things would have proceeded very much along the the same lines. The US's main strength was an abundance of natural resources as much as anything else after all, and there would be litttle difference there.

"Oh dear. How sad. Never mind!"

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The irony being that it was 'the wealthy land owners' in the Colonies that stirred up the trouble and vilified the British establishment with promises of liberty and freedom. The entire thing is far more sinister and vindictive. Works digging into this aspect of the 'war' have been kicked off by Hugh Bicheno; long may this new historiography continue.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

But the American Wealthy landowners had no vote. They didn't have the same rights as their british counterparts. which is why they rebelled. Also, you are assuming that history would have taken the same course as it did, but I am not certain thats a safe assumption. And the US main strength was an abundance of natural resources, and the freedom to use them. Their might have been a huge difference there.

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Yes, but most Britons had no representation either, it was the accepted norm of the day.


It may have been accepted in Britain, but was not accepted in America.

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Perhaps the british are more hesitant to free the slaves when they did given a large population of slave owners in the American colonies. Maybe the American revolution was a force for change both inside and outside of the empire, and without it, the monarchy remains in place longer and is more resistant to the changes that occured.

A very good point. Certainly when Great Britain wanted to give greater equality to blacks in South Africa it backed down in order to stop the Boers rebelling.

I think Great Britain would have made as many concessions to the Southern slave owners to stop rebellion as the Northern politicians did in the U.S.A., prior to the civil war.

I am quite proud of the Britain’s part in stopping the slave trade and ending slavery in the colonies. I’m not trying to be ironic or provocative, when I say maybe we owe the U.S. thanks for rebelling and thereby detaching Britain from the shameful appeasement of Southern slave owners in the 1840s and 1850s.

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To say the US, by rebelling, helped stop the slave trade, kiddo, is disingenuous and simplistic.
Go back to college and read the history books.

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What history books? The anti-slavery movement would have existed regardless, but C.L.R. James suggests that it was only taken up by the British establishment because stopping the slave trade would do more harm to the French than it would to the British. We know from what happened in the U.S. that Southern slave holders would have used every trick in the book to stop the abolition of slavery in the colonies. If the slaveholders were still in British colonies, don’t you think they would have threatened to secede if Britain tried to stop slavery and don’t you think that would have carried any weight in Parliament?

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Like you guys didn't colonize and exploit other peoples around the world for centuries and continue to do so long after slavery ended in the United States? And do so in the name of wealth and profit and power?

Get off your high horse, seriously. Take a good hard look at your own history.

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Its all good but this whole post is moot. They could have literally given like 5 or 10 seats in parliament and it would have been enough. Not enough to give the colonies power over parliament but enough so they cant protest against taxes without representation

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One of the reasons why so many Native American tribes sided with the British Empire during the war, and fought along side with them was because they knew the United Kingdom was going to respect their land and rights.
I guess they didn't know much about the history of the British, then.

Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim.

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Bearing in mind the colonials were basically British, why the hell would the Native Americans fall for that old chestnut?

You are entitled to my opinion, whether you want it or not!!

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Maybe the Native Americans should have had a chat with the some of the Irish colonists. That might have made them think twice about trusting the British to respect their land and rights.


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Without the American Revolution, would we have the French Revolution?

Without the French Revolution, the World would be much worse off.

Your feeble skills are no match for the power of kittens.

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Here's my two cents (or more): Remember it was EUROPEANS who brought slavery to the new world & stole the Native American's land, long before the Revolution. The slaves & Native Americans had to try to pick the lesser of two evils. The Native Americans had been lied to so many times by the ruling EUROPEAN powers, what difference would it make if the British had a treaty not to take any MORE of their land; they were LIED to by EVERYBODY, as were the slaves. Some of the slaves & Native Americans fought on the American side, some of the colonist were loyal to the Crown, so go figure.............

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Don't expect a nice chat if you want to give fairness to the Tea Drinkers. May God sink their island and drown them all.

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That'll never happen- God of course is an Englishman.

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

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All stand and sing...

"And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On England's pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In England's green & pleasant Land."

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