MovieChat Forums > Band of Brothers (2001) Discussion > One thing I never get about American war...

One thing I never get about American war movies/shows...


First off, I just binged BoB and I am really impressed. However, it has one huge flaw. The same old generic cliché that all the other American war stories have: the absolutely ridiculous kill to death ratio.

In every single BoB battle scene, 5-10 Americans were absolutely slaughtering the Germans like sheep. Germans miss their shots so badly that they make even the Stormtroopers look good. Were Germans really THAT bad at fighting? I checked Western Front casualties and it was more of a 2:3 ratio in favor of US.

As a completely neutral person, it just seemed so odd and out of place from an otherwise flawless series. Even a 2:1 ratio in favor of Americans would've been okay.

Why do American directors always do this?

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Well it's biased storytelling. Easy company did lose it's fair share of soldiers, some of those deaths are shown in the series.

One could make the argument that since the 101st airborne was the elite soldiers of it's time, they would have had a better kill/death - ratio then the US line units.

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Easy company did lose it's fair share of soldiers


Or they get maimed--usually in a shockingly horrific manner. Muck & Penckala getting vaporized by artillery shell; Wild Bill & Babe getting their legs blown off in the same barrage. That poor replacement getting turned into mush at Neunen; Lipton getting nearly castrated at Carentan or that guy who shot himself with the "souvenir" Luger & just bled to death or that poor guy from 'Last Patrol' who gets fragged by his own grenade & dies screaming.








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Airborne troops made were 1% of the U.S.Army, but were 5% of the casualties.

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You read too much into it & you ain't paying attention; anyway, it's a real unit. I don't care what the 'statistics' say--unless you're asking for the film makers to kill off people who did not in fact get killed;

anyway the men of Easy did knock off that artillery battery at Brecourt Manor with minimal casualties; they & the rest of the 101st had a hard time at Carentant as the film showed. The fight at Neunen went badly but in return the patrol at 'The crossroads' did very well indeed.

Anyway, it's a TV movie, it won't have the 'sweep' of 'Bridge Too Far' or 'Longest Day;






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As far as Easy Company is concerned, it was fair. But the Germans, in general, seemed to miss even the easiest of shots and in every other episode there was a scene of an Easy Co. guy just barging through the hale of bullets.

I accept that might have happened but why do the enemy soldiers always get mowed down when they do the same? It seemed to me like German LMGs/HMGs were the crapiest of weapons ever to exist. Either that or US soldiers were a tad too lucky.

Still I know it's a movie made by an American for mostly American public so that much heroism is acceptable. Actually this is way better than the movies like "Saving Private Ryan" and "Letters from Iwo Jima" in terms of casualty realism.

The enemy didn't even feel like a threat in those movies. Enemy veterans were just morons with guns compared to the elite 19-year-old soldiers of the US.

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Don't know what you mean....I don't get what you mean by casualty realism---the guys who got hit, got hit; the ones who didn't, didn't. Clearly you didn't see other 101st troops run like rabbits at bloody gulch and others get stacked up by the MG42s as they tried to enter Carentan, get ground up at Foy or blasted by artillery at Bastogne.( And you also have to understand that the guns at Brecourt Manor were manned by artillerymen, not footsoldiers; their primary job is to fire cannons not be infantrymen) You didn't listen to Winters say to 'move fast because speed is of the essence';

If you want to see more Americans get killed watch Omaha Beach in Private Ryan or Longest Day or the 82nds attempted river crossing in Bridge Too Far.





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The miniseries shows Germans killing Van Klinken, Miller, Dukeman, Julian, Herron, Webb, Mellett, Sawosko, Muck, Penkala and Kiehn; they're also shown shooting down a C-47 full of Easy Company paratroopers on D-Day, killing everyone on board. So I'm not sure what your point is.

Do you think the miniseries should have killed off Easy Company soldiers who actually survived?

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So I'm not sure what your point is.


His point is that he doesn't like American's seeming superior in anything, even if the factually were/are.

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Oh, so that was my point? Good to know.

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Superior? Americans? Only an American would proclaim this.

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And only a butthurt moron would not understand what I wrote.

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Onlx a butthurt moron would write such crap.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#/media/File:WorldWarII-DeathsByAlliance-Piechart.png

American movies about WW2 are just plain and simple unwatchable how biased they are...

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I ain't sure I get ya.

Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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I tell you, it is just a dam shame that no other countries in the world are able to make movies about WW2 which show those countries in a good light. 

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Exactly! There ain't no other film industry in the world.



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Not with the global reach of the US film industry there isn't.

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most minis are made for 'their' audiences.

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That's a pathetic response.

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I hope you meant 'strain' & not me.



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Plus that chart is Allies stats. So even they admit they had more military loses than Axis had. Not to mention that probably more than 50% of this civilians they state are loses in resistance movements and Russians(who didnt even cared about their loses and suicide who ever was alive). So we get to number of 1 Axis for 3-4 Allies at minimum, but when we watch all your American pro movies Axis look like retards and zombies. Im looking forward to Nolan WW2 movie, he seamed like non biased and really good director so far, i expect first realistic WW2 movie so far, but we will see.

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And how does it measure up if you remove the Soviet casualties?

Anyway, here's a little something for you if you desire the input from another major ally in the war in Europe:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425715/

Watch it & tell me how the casualty counts pan out.



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Ya know, it's like some people do not understand the concepts of "entertainment" and "business". As a general rule, audiences like to have good guys and bad guys. They like the good guys to be invincible and for the bad guys' army to be made of faceless and not especially competent mooks. The people who pay to have entertainments made like to give audiences what they want because they hope to make a profit and stay in business. American, British, even Russian and Chinese filmmakers know this and make their films accordingly.

If you want history, then read history books - don't watch movies and TV.

Having said that, some pieces of entertainment do try to be closer to real events than others. This is one. If E/2/506 PIR seems to be better than the Germans they faced, it's because they usually were. Even then, the show does not shrink from portraying that they generally did what they did with great difficulty and lots of casualties.

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As I said to another person here: As far as Easy Company survival is concerned it was fair but my complaint is about the ridiculous K/D ratio the Americans had.

People here keep mentioning the C-47. One airplane shot down out of 100(?) is still a bad representation of actual history but that's not the point.

In the episode where Winters leads an assault with the red smoke signal. That massacre was absolutely ridiculous. I couldn't believe one bit of it. Not even a single Easy soldier was hurt and at least 100 German soldiers died.

Even if they were flanked, confused and an untrained mob of militia with loaded guns that were expecting enemies they'd still have hurt some of the people. Not just sit there and shoot in the sky. There was no need for that.

You don't have to kill off people that didn't die. You can however show the ones who did die or get hurt by letting some extras fall in the battle. After all, Easy Company was mostly replacements by the end of the war.

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In the episode where Winters leads an assault with the red smoke signal. That massacre was absolutely ridiculous. I couldn't believe one bit of it. Not even a single Easy soldier was hurt and at least 100 German soldiers died


So what happened during that battle RE: The Easy Company patrol and that German infantry company? What really happened to Lt. Winters & his men when they got into contact & then called artillery down on them? I mean other than Duke being KIA or Webster getting shot thru the calf;

Then, tell me why a bunch of "forcibly conscripted ethnic Poles/Osttruppen" would want to risk their butts for Germany by putting up a better fight?

Also, you skirt the issue of what the Germans did to the 101st & Easy at Carentan, Bloody Gulch, Neunen, Bastogne & Foy. Plenty of extras 'falling in battle' in those sequences, as it were.










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In the episode where Winters leads an assault with the red smoke signal. That massacre was absolutely ridiculous. I couldn't believe one bit of it. Not even a single Easy soldier was hurt and at least 100 German soldiers died.



You may not have believed it, but it actually happened. Winters considered it Easy's finest hour; he ranked it even higher than their assault on Brecourt Manor.

In episode 4, the miniseries shows Hashey's gun jamming repeatedly during Easy's time in Nuenen, and he doesn't get off a single shot - and he later complains about not having fired ONCE. In fact, the entire company is shown in full retreat during that entire sequence.

In episode 7, Easy is shown experiencing devastating losses in Bastogne and Foy. In addition, Toye and Guarnere get their legs blown off, and Hoobler accidentally kills himself with a Luger.

And earlier in Carentan, Tipper's eye is blown out of its socket.

The reason Easy Company attracted so much attention from writers and filmmakers is because they had such an extraordinary history. But they weren't successful in every mission they undertook, and the miniseries shows this.

So I'm still not sure what your point is; your complaints don't jibe with what is actually presented onscreen.

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You state that as a fact so I cant negate it until I check the history behind that assault but still it looked like a scene from a bad action movie. They were Wehrmacht after all and they were most probably trained to at least shoot back. They probably had a Lieutenant just like Winters to keep them in order too. They wont just stare and surrender to a smaller force.

Also, it is beyond me why you people keep mentioning Bastogne? Bastogne was a tactical surround. It was supposed to be worse than its shown. Either you didn't know that or you assumed I wasn't aware of that.

I think the problem here is the perspective. I presume you are an American and that's why you are inherently more sympathetic to Easy characters than I am. For example, every time a German tank was destroyed, I immediately tried to envision what they might me thinking. A whole platoon lost without offering any resistance to just a squad? Unrealistic, but again you stated as a fact so its possible.

Since, I was watching this for WW2 battle realism and because a friend told me it wasn't a one-sided massacre of the opposing forces. It would've been better if they turned the heroism thing down slightly in a few certain scenes.

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And again you keep talking about this 'realism' thing. Paratroop divisions are going to be a 'cut above' a regular infantry division in terms of aggression & leadership...they ain't the 84th Infantry Division after all-the same British Tank unit that worked with the 101st in Holland also worked with the Railslitters and found their performance very wanting due to indecisive & timid leadership.

Anyway, it seems you're hung up about 'The Crossroads' & how that small patrol took down the better part of two companies of German soldiers. Again, it doesn't matter what you 'think'...try to find out how reality played out for Easy Company, as they are the object of the series-NOT the US Army, NOT the 101st ABD NOT even the 506th Regiment. And again, while it's surprising, I'm sure a bunch of Osttruppen ain't gonna want to risk their skins for the defense of Germany.

every time a German tank was destroyed, I immediately tried to envision what they might be(sic) thinking.


I only saw ONE tank destroyed--and it was a self propelled German assault gun that got knocked out by a bazooka at bloody gulch.



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You state that as a fact so I cant negate it until I check the history behind that assault but still it looked like a scene from a bad action movie. They were Wehrmacht after all...


Well, to be specific, they were SS companies.

And if you haven't "checked the history behind the assault," it's time you started. All you have to do is go to Google and type in "Easy Company October 5 1944" and you'll find a number of sites that will tell you what happened. But to start you off, there's this one -

http://www.army.mil/article/46037/

Dick Winters described the Crossroads battle in detail in his memoir, "Beyond Band of Brothers." Burton "Pat" Christenson also discussed it in "A Company of Heroes," and he described the Germans as "running in all directions" and "rolling down the dike like bowling pins." In "Easy Company Soldier," Don Malarkey called the assault on the SS companies "one of those fish-in-a-barrel moments" that was "both exhilarating and sad; as the soldiers fled, they were picked off right and left." The always plain-speaking Bill Guarnere also discussed the engagement in his memoir "Brothers in Battle, Best of Friends" and had this to say: "First Platoon beat the shillelagh out of those Nazis. It was like a duck shoot. When our platoon joined them, they were already at the end of the action. I would have liked to have blown them all away myself."

And yes, I know all about Bastogne. I only mentioned it because you'd made the following statement in your first post: "In every single BoB battle scene, 5-10 Americans were absolutely slaughtering the Germans like sheep." Every single battle scene? Sorry, but that's simply not true. It certainly wasn't the case in Carentan, or Bloody Gulch, or Nuenen, or the area around Bastogne. In fact, I'm astonished you watched Easy's assault on Foy and came to the conclusion that "5-10 Americans were absolutely slaughtering the Germans like sheep."

If you actually believe that, you need to watch episode 7 again. Actually, based on the statements you've made, it sounds like you need to watch the entire miniseries again.

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It's an American production, obviously, they'll show off the americans as the Gung ho, not scared one bit, perfect shootist, while the ennemy will ALWAYS have their guns jammed, miss shots, not know how to hide..etc...
I agree with you. although good, americans will NEVER show them losing a fight, even when they lost many. but those fights will NEVER be documented or showned, only the so called heroic and battles won will be shown.

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Ok, let me try to help. The show was based on the book. The book was based on interviews. It hard to interview dead people. So most of the "characters" are the guys who survived the war, hence they did not die in the show.

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It's also a matter of the limitations of a visual medium for entertainment purposes. In most movies, the named characters you get to know require an investment of your limited on-screen time getting to know them, so they are a bit precious (you can't kill them off easily, yet you have to portray action in which you risk their lives).

You're effectively watching a zoom of the main characters (that's why most movies and TV-Shows compound many people into a few characters). They are surrounded by a large number of unseen soldiers that are dropping like flies around them, the director just can't dwell on filming that because it would turn into a documentary of the dead. In the case of BoB, we're focused on the main characters that made it alive (and the deaths more significant to them), but that doesn't preclude many other deaths (many of which are mentioned, which other films wouldn't bother to do). And also as a side effect, when you see the enemy attacking said characters, most will miss (again, a limitation of the medium).

While in the case of BoB, there are documented cases in which they faced a larger/more powerful force with less casualties (or at least, survivable casualty rates), one thing that makes BoB different is that they don't act as being impervious (which IMO is part of your underlying chief complaint). They bleed on screen, and you get a real sense of dread and fear for their lives (that they felt). While honoring their actions and bravery (in an entertaining fashion), the series doesn't glorify War. If anything, it tries to give value the peace they hard-fought to achieve.

WWII was arguably won in the Easter Front (likely in Stalingrad, if Germany had gained access to the Caucasus oil fields at that time, the war would likely have gone the other way, or ended in a stalemate). The sheer scale of the battles and casualty figures for both Russians and Germans is staggering (and there is no way that D-Day would have succeeded w/o the German forces tied up and 3 year of losses on the Russian Front). And it it's even more incomprehensible when you consider the enormity of all other war theaters.

But unfortunately, American audiences have little interest on watching such a comprehensive mini-series sometimes focused on other nations. And even when there have been such mini-series, we are so far removed, that most wouldn't get a fraction of the enormity of the worldwide price paid by this generation unless you concentrate on the rank and file soldiers.

BoB manages to grab its intended audience by focusing on a small group of soldiers in a manageable sized portion of the war and focuses on their relationships, on their camaraderie, and the price they paid as individuals (while the last of them were still around to tell their stories - it is almost a documentary in that regard). It is up to the viewer to realize that this is but a spec of dust (in the scope of the events happening around them), and realize a fraction of the human cost of the overall war.

Understand that while WWII changed the world and brought about the general prosperity most of us enjoy, it was a species-level shattering and reshaping event. It wasn't a war for glory or gain, like many of the conflicts that came before. Newer generations are quickly forgetting this, going back to the behaviors that caused so much suffering in the XX century. Easily accessible reminders are welcome.

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There is a Russian miniseries centered around a 'punishment battalion' that fought from Stalingrad to Berlin. If they ever get a translated/subtitled version of it, I am SO getting it.




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In another of your posts, I saw the name of the punishment battalion series (Shtrafbat (2004)) and did a quick search.

It seems that English subs do exist, but some comments seem to indicate that they aren't very good (translated from Russian to Chinese and then to English) and/or there might be multiple versions of the subtitles.

There seems to be a project for making English subs for it, posting the episodes on YouTube (and adding enhanced info, like historical info in addition to subs). See *beep* (posted on 2015/04/15). There appears to only be 2 episodes so far (did't see a link for the project itself).

It seems they have it on Amazon with English subs http://www.amazon.com/Shtrafbat-Penal-Battalion-English-subtitles/dp/4327158917

OpenSubtitles has a mess, several of the subs seem to be in Romanian, unclear if any of the available subs are in English. Looking in KaT & PB, there are 3 versions, but only one claims to have English subs (2 ISO 15.86 GB), but it might not be viable.

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Thanks for the info;



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I think you answered your own complaint. It's an American TV show and we here in America love to romanticize WWII as that one time we saved the whole world. It's literally one of the only wars where the moral high ground is extremely obvious, so the Nazis really can be categorized as the genuine BAD GUYS and be killed at greater numbers or with greater ease.

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You do understand, don't you, OP, that the U.S. military actually got BETTER as the war progressed? If you want to go by an overall ratio of Germans to Americans killed, you foolishly ignore the fact that the Americans had worse losses earlier in the war, from Kassarine Pass to Anzio. The ratio of Americans killed to Germans killed at Omaha Beach is also obviously more to your liking, as would the American lives lost in earlier bomber raids such as the mission at Schweinfurt, but this mini-series isn't about that.

Seriously, you need to stop looking at things in such simplistic terms. The ratio of Germans killed to Americans killed was higher during the last year of the war, which is when this series takes place. But even then the Germans certainly inflicted major losses on American troops at certain points, such as Huertgen Forest. But again, not a place that Easy Company operated in.

If you want to enjoy a movie where the Germans killed more Americans, maybe watch BATTLE OF THE BULGE. I'm betting you'll especially enjoy the Malmedy Massacre.

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Seriously, you need to stop looking at things in such simplistic terms. The ratio of Germans killed to Americans killed was higher during the last year of the war, which is when this series takes place.


This isn't true for some of the battles depicted in BoB. Carentan for example. Allied losses were heavier than German losses and it took two days to secure the town. They were almost driven out by a fierce Fallschirmjager bayonet charge.

In Band of Brothers on the other hand, it's shown to be a short battle where little Americans died. Pretty revisionist IMO.
I also severely doubt that only 4 men from easy company got killed during Market Garden.

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In Band of Brothers on the other hand, it's shown to be a short battle where little Americans died.


And how many Easy Co. casualties were suffered?

I also severely doubt that only 4 men from easy company got killed during Market Garden.


Yup...and how many battles did the show have during M/G other than Neunen?




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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuenen

So apparently there really was just 4 American losses at Neunen...but also only two German aswell. Band of Brothers bloats the German casualties to two MG teams and a Half-Track with a dozen Panzer-Grenadiers in it. So still revisionist, just in a different way.

I still give Band 10/10 BTW, cause its that good dramatically speaking. It's just not as realistic as I once thought.

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Well let it be said that the Nuenen battle was an 'amalgam' of several incidents that happened during Market/Garden; anyways, some folks are also P/O'd that the 82nd AB didn't get any mention on this show either.

If you ask me, the whole of Market Garden/Bridge Too Far should get it's own Mini Series so the whole battle can viewed from all sides.




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we saved the whole world!!! lol here is typical american ignorance, the majority of the werhmaht weren't even on the western front, the best equiped italian army was destroyed on eastern front, basicaly only once whermaht send more or less strong force, and that managed to push alies back

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Speaking of Pavlovian ignorance, at least make an attempt to see past your own narrow-minded prejudices and confirmation bias. Try to understand that the whole world is not simply a reflection of your own personal insecurities.

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So americans saved the world by themselves? I don't know wtf they teach you in school but stop being conceited. Millions of europeans died so americans can come and finish what was left of the Nazi Germany. It's ignorants like you that give americans a bad name. Go read some history (and i don't mean only US history) before opening your mouth next time.

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Don't feed the troll.






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Pot, meet kettle. This proves once again that unintentional irony is the most amusing kind.

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I checked Western Front casualties and it was more of a 2:3 ratio in favor of US.


And you also have to consider that the majority of German casualties on the western front were captured (not killed or wounded)

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4 years ago, on a now-extinct message board, a user named ahmadsallar007 got a savage beatdown and rightfully so. I'm glad things like this got archived.

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