MovieChat Forums > The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) Discussion > How the age of Men is over, when there a...

How the age of Men is over, when there are Men in Sauron's army?

posted 8 years ago by sevastokrator
3 replies | jump to latest

One thing I don't get. There are Men fighting alongside Orcs and Uruk-hai, both for Sauron and for Saruman, so how come everyone's talking about the end of Mankind if Sauron's and Saruman's forces win? Gondor and Rohan are but a fraction of Mankind, the rest were allies with the Orc, weren't they?

[–] moundshroud 8 years ago

This is one of my quibbles with the movies - there is some dialogue (particularly from Saruman) which can be interpreted as if the goal of Sauron and Saruman was the genocide of Men. Their intention was not so much annihilation as subjugation of Men.

In the book, when Saruman is attempting to recruit Gandalf to his side, he said...

The Elder Days are gone. The Middle Days are Passing. The Younger Days are beginning. The time of the Elves is over, but our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule...

In a nutshell, the Elves had been considered the masters of the world for thousands of years. By the late Third Age they were fading, departing Middle Earth forever. Men became the heirs apparent of the world. Saruman recognized this as an opportunity to dominate Men and thus rule the world.

Sauron had already succeeded in subjugating countless tribes of Men (the Easterlings and Southrons) and was preparing to conquer the remaining free kingdoms of Men in the world, most of which were either small (Dale) or in decline (Gondor, Rohan). Sauron was always more interested in ruling the world rather than destroying it (which was the goal of his former master, Morgoth).

In the book, during the negotiations with the Mouth of Sauron, he outlined Sauron's plan for them if they surrendered. All the lands west of the Anduin River (including Gondor and Rohan) were to be ruled by one of Sauron's lieutenants (originally Saruman, but after his betrayal it's implied that the Mouth of Sauron himself would be that lieutenant). Sauron's intention was to break the will of the remaining free Men and rule over them, not kill every last one.

If Sauron and Saruman had been successful, there would be no Age of Man not because they would all be slain, but because it would be the Dark Lord(s) ruling the world rather than a world ruled by free Men.

[–] sevastokrator 8 years ago

Given how free Men behave when they are in power, and the order and organization Sauron gave to chaotic and bloodthirsty Orcs, I often asked myself in what exact way was Sauron a bad guy after all. Even Saruman sounded right when he accused Gandalf of being adventurous and not caring about the lives of people who he sent to death. I still haven't read the book, though, so my views are based on films solely.

Thanks for the answer, it makes much more sense than what was implied in the films. 

[–] indy_go_blue44 8 years ago

Although Tolkien says (and I believe him) that his book is not allegorical, there's a very clear allegory between the world that Sauron would rule and the world the Nazis wanted to create in Eastern Europe and the USSR. Only in this case Sauron is the master race, and all others subservient (i.e. slaves) to him and him alone.