MovieChat Forums > Merlin (1998) Discussion > the REAL villian

the REAL villian

posted 18 years ago by furyoftheturtles
50 replies | jump to latest

While watching the movie last night something occured to me...

Merlin is the real bad guy in the film

Think about it *spoilers below*

Queen Mab is dying due to Christianity erasing the people's belief in her. So she creates Merlin to get people to believe in her and keep her alive. And during the birth Merlin's human mother dies. She would have died anyway, but Merlin blames her for his mothers death.

Then later in the story Aunty A (I think it was) gets sick, and when Mab askes her if she's sick she says "I'm not sick, I'm dying"
But when she dies Merlin blames her for that too.

So Merlin goes on this huge campaign to kill Mab, and Mab just does what she needs to do to live, a fair bit of which is helping people to get what they want (love, beauty, etc.) Of course, she kills people too, but there are only a couple of people...actually, I can only remember her actually killing one person...that was kind of unnecessary, but she was trying to stop Mab from taking Mordred away.

And Merlin does all this stuff to kill her and live HIS ideal life while totally denying Mab hers...

In fact, when Mab died, I felt kind of sad. Well, it was sad, with everyone just turning their backs on her and ignoring her until she disappeared...and she did actually love Merlin, just he blamed her for everything that went wrong...

So yeah, I think Merlin was the real villain in the film. Anyone agree?

[–] Pallid_Amaranthine 18 years ago

Yes, there's a whole host of people that agree with you that Merlin is a royal prick. Trust me. ^^

For him, it's as if there were thousands of bars, and behind the thousands of bars, no world.

[–] kray28 18 years ago

Yeah, I pretty much agree with your interpretation.

I think the bigger picture is that there were no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this story (all except for Galahad maybe...and he was a child).

In the final analysis, Merlin does everything Mab does (lie, cheat, and deceive)...but from his viewpoint it is for the cause of good. His good.

But what is good? Surely Mab feels that what she is doing is for the greater good as well?

He even admits it when he says that "the ends justify the means"...and it isn't surprising that the people he hurts to bring Arthur to life are also the people who end up taking Arthur from him.

What I dislike about Merlin is the sense within the story that there is something inherently better about Christianity than Paganism...and that in the end what Mab represents must be dark and hence evil.

By the way...the trite and sappy ending to the movie was just wrong....wrong in so many ways. The story of Merlin and Nimue is a tragic one...Nimue kills herself after betraying Merlin, and Merlin is trapped inside a cave/oak for all eternity.

The introduction of a deus ex machina to bring about a happy ending is a sign of the basest and weakest type of storytelling there is. But then again, Hallmark had something to do with his movie, right?

[–] liquid_courage 18 years ago

For a diety though Mab sure was selfish, her entire objective was born of selfishness, while Merlin acted out of haste his actions were done with the best of intentions and he did give back to the people (Camelot).

[–] sintancos_empress 18 years ago

Hmmm, I don't know about that. No, she wasn't acting for "humanity", as such. She was acting on behalf of her kind- the people of the Old Ways, the magical creatures, magic itself. It's not purely selfish- she is, after all, the Queen of the Old Ways, and one would expect her, as Queen, to fight to protect the Old Ways. Some of her actions were certainly questionable, and I think towards the end, it became a lot more about revenge for her, but I don't believe her actions were born of selfishness.

As for Merlin- were not most of his actions fuelled by revenge? He only began fighting Mab after Mab didn't save Ambrosia and his mother from dying, vowing to defeat her, which speaks to me of personal revenge. In contrast to Mab, he probably became more motivated by a desire to put a good king on the throne as the film progressed, but his actions were born out of a "selfish" need for revenge to begin with.

Try not to panic. Just think of it as landing a little more vertically than usual

[–] liquid_courage 18 years ago

I think towards the end, it became a lot more about revenge for her, but I don't believe her actions were born of selfishness.

Yet her sister the lady of the lake was more than willing to accept change, the magic and magical creatures were a side effect of the old ways, Mab was fighting to stay alive at no point did she express concern for the fearies or what not, she didnt want to be forgotten that was the underlying plot.

Also merlin was born out of this selfishness, she created a life as a tool to help people remember the old ways.

He only began fighting Mab after Mab didn't save Ambrosia and his mother from dying, vowing to defeat her, which speaks to me of personal revenge

Yes it was revenge, was his revenge selfish, isn't it most of the time?

But his revenge was born of a noble cause, revenge for the death of Aunty A and his Mother, he was clearly angry and uninformed and made these vows of revenge, BUT his intentions were good, at least thats how they were intended to be portrayed as always good/evil is a matter of opinion.

It didnt help when Mab kept interfering with Merlin and hurting those close to him throughout the story, Arthur, Nimway (sp)

I just don't think I'll ever accept Mab was not selfish or 'bad' in my opinion she was but I concede there is arguement she wasn't all that bad.

[–] sintancos_empress 18 years ago

Fair enough- differing opinions make the world an interesting place to live. "Merlin"'s a great film, anyway.

Try not to panic. Just think of it as landing a little more vertically than usual

[–] Pallid_Amaranthine 18 years ago

As a point in Mab's favour, you've gotta remember she's at war. People do tend to be ruthless when they're at war - and if you're at war for centuries, you'd probably become rather ruthless yourself, or you'd just be wiped out. As sintacos empress mentioned, she certainly started out protecting her people - which was an action borne of love, not anything bad.
Sure she probably went about things in the wrong way, and yes, her actions were questionable, but we're kinda judging her by human standards. People skills obviously isn't Mab's forte - and she assumes her actions are necessary in order for her plans to prevail... for instance, she tried to sacrifice Nimue because she generally thought Merlin would return to her when all his ties to the world of men had been broken. Sadly, she failed to consider that scarring his girlfriend's face horrendously would make him very pissed off and resolute never to join her. I think a lot of the negative stuff that happened in Merlin was possibly due to misunderstanding as opposed to villany, but again, it's just an opinion.

[–] liquid_courage 18 years ago

but we're kinda judging her by human standards. People skills obviously isn't Mab's forte - and she assumes her actions are necessary in order for her plans to prevail... for instance, she tried to sacrifice Nimue because she generally thought Merlin would return to her when all his ties to the world of men had been broken. Sadly, she failed to consider that scarring his girlfriend's face horrendously would make him very pissed off and resolute never to join her.

But by saying that you're saying shes naive and again comparing her to human standards, shes anything but naive, shes old, wise, cunning and was until recently powerful, like everyone with power they're not to willing to let it go and won't give it up without a fight, I tend to think she was fighting for her power and acted recklessly rather than naively.

[–] sintancos_empress 18 years ago

Also, although this scene never made it to the final film, according to the shooting script *huggles copy*, there was supposed to be a scene right at the start of the film- in the film, we see a woman struggling up a hill towards some standing stones. In the shooting script, a short scene takes place after this, where, before this woman dies, she calls on Mab and begs her to fight for the Old Ways. Mab is actually RELUCTANT at first, telling her she no longer has as much power as she once did, but then gives in, and swears to fight to bring back the Old Ways. So, technically, she was acting on the behalf of the followers of the Old Ways, as she had been begged to do.

Try not to panic. Just think of it as landing a little more vertically than usual

[–] liquid_courage 18 years ago

Well that shines a different light on things, if thats indeed right then I suppose I'd have to concede my point.

Going purely off of what the film puts across we're obviously meant to see her as the bad guy...err girl, but then again watch something like Star Wars and you're meant to think Darth Vader's all bad, we're later proven wrong, I suppose we should never judge a book by its cover, two sides to every story and all that :)

shooting script *huggles copy*

lol great, where'd you get that?

[–] Pallid_Amaranthine 18 years ago

w00t! Yeah, where did you get hold of that, sintacos empress? :o
[Dammit, I keep calling you himiko :p]

[–] sintancos_empress 18 years ago

Ah, don't worry, you can call me what you like, LOL.

Christ, I've had the shooting script for nearly 8 years now (it was a tenth birthday gift from my parents), so I'm not entirely sure where it was obtained from, but I think my dad ordered it off the Internet. I'd say the best bet for finding it is checking out ebay or amazon. It's pretty good- it's got an interview with the director, one with Sam neill and Isabella Rosselini, one with Miranda Richardson :D, some black and white pictures (some are stills from the film, some are pictures of it being filmed), a brief synopsis of the story, the shooting script itself (which doesn't have that many missing scenes in it, the main one I noticed was the aforementioned scene- although there are lines that don't appear in the film scattered randomly about the script, and the start of the first part actually begins with the start of the second part - Arthur and Merlin going to Excalibur- before going into the war between Vortigern and Constant, and Mab's creation of Merlin), and filmographies for most of the major people involved. But I'm not sure how easy they are to find these days.

Try not to panic. Just think of it as landing a little more vertically than usual

[–] whitespirit26 13 years ago

Of course she was selfish, and Merlin had better morals; this doesn't mean she was ALL bad, but she became cold, as she showed when she dismissed Merlin's mother to her death.

[–] noirgirl 10 years ago

When I watched this when it originally aired, and I did see that scene in the movie, right at the beginning. Mab appears either from or from behind one of the stones.

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] pol-edra 11 years ago

The story of Merlin and Nimue is a tragic one...Nimue kills herself after betraying Merlin, and Merlin is trapped inside a cave/oak for all eternity.

Theirs is indeed a tragic story, but why do you say Nimue kills herself? I'm sure there must be some modern piece rewriting the Arthurian legend that says so (maybe even Mists of Avalon, specifically? I think something like that is in it, although it is Taliesin, is it not, who is betrayed?) but it's not something you find in "traditional", i.e, medieval literature. Were you thinking of a particular text? Just curious.

"Occasionally I'm callous and strange."

[–] sintancos_empress 18 years ago

My friend, you are not alone. If you have time, check out the Miranda richardson forums, where many of us Mab-fangirls spend many a happy hour killing Merlin in various painful ways.

Try not to panic. Just think of it as landing a little more vertically than usual

[–] Pallid_Amaranthine 18 years ago

Amen to that!

[–] kiaranah 18 years ago

yes in a matter of speaking i would definatly agree with your theory in someways but in others however i cannot....but i would also like to say that Arthur is the real villian! Yep King Arthur is the bad guy fair and square!

[–] Pallid_Amaranthine 18 years ago

Well, I don't have that much against Arhur, he's just a bit dim. Mind you, he did kill Mordred, so that puts him firmly on the hate list.

:0 There are several on Amazon... although I'm slightly suspicious as to why most of them are 1p...

[–] sintancos_empress 18 years ago

Well, Pallid Amaranthine, I've checked out the ones on Amazon.co.uk, and judging by the pictures and details, they look exactly like the one I have. I'm not sure why they're so cheap in some cases- perhaps they're just not in high demand? Either way, if you pick a seller with a high positive rating, you should be OK.

Try not to panic. Just think of it as landing a little more vertically than usual

[–] Pallid_Amaranthine 18 years ago

Will do as soon as I can beg some money off someone. ^^ Cheers for mentioning it!

[–] mdavis9 18 years ago

The REAL villian is Mordred. Mordred is a creature of pure venom. He exists purely to spite Arthur and Merlin. He born out of spite. He was vile to the end.
The only other canidant for the REAL villian could also be Vortigern. His whole point in life seems to be holding on to his power and being a tyrant. He had a tendancy to axe people right and left, and his pride killed him.
Queen Mab is obviusly evil, the most evil character, probably not. She has some underlying noble causes, but goes about everything the wrong way.
Merlin is full of good intentions, and though Mab thwarts him pretty often, he isn't evil. Though he does swear revenge against Mab, he doesn't actively try to kill her or others, more of just upsetting her plans.
Merlin is probably the best thing to come out of Hallmark studios, and I would've like Nimue to die and not get the uber-happy ending. (Mostly because her voice was like nails on a chalkboard to me.)

[–] sintancos_empress 18 years ago

Ah, yes, much as I love Merlin, the ending with Nimue was slightly cheesy, with the disappearing of magic and all. And Nimue was a rather irritating character (though she does provide someone to pair Mab with in hate!sex femslash)

Try not to panic. Just think of it as landing a little more vertically than usual

[–] abs_is_back 17 years ago

Really they are all villains in their own way.

You usually get the whole ya ya, King Arthur, shining knights, fight for right, blah blah blah and Arthur and Lancelot and Merlin, etc, faults though they have, are all held up as shining heroes. This story shows that the mighty Merlin has faults of his own, his own hidden agendas, his own triumphs and sorrows, and his own past, something we all have to deal with. Mab is doing what she feels is right, upholding the Old Ways at all costs. Merlin is doing what he thinks is right, upholding the Cause of Good by fighting Mab tooth and nail. Each turns against the other (Mab against Merlin because he doesn't fulfill her mission for him, Merlin against Mab because of her at-all-costs way of doing business), and then they fight it out, with much tragic fallout along the way.

As for the christianity versus paganism thing, as a pagan myself, I didn't feel it was that Merlin turned from paganism to christianity so much that he turned against Mab, period. He does not turn against the Lady of the Lake and is quite respectful to the Rock of Ages and Nature in general. Even when he refers to christianity directly, "he who is without sin casting the first stone", etc, he says "your religion", not his. Merlin thinks himself as standing up for Good, not any particular religion.

When he talks to the Lady of the Lake at the end about his regrets, I think he sees that his interference was just as bad as Mab's, with just as lousy results. Which is when she tells him he's human too.

Everyone in the cast is a redeemable villian. Even Uther thinks he's seducing Igraine for love. Even Morgan thinks she's justified because she's avenging her murdered father. Even Mordred's attitude is formed by his upbringing.

Ok, ok, maybe Vortigen is a true butthole, but the rest are making their own mistakes for their own, sometimes twisted, reasons.

That beginning scene at the stones does help explain Mab.

And Nimue is too cutsey a character for me. Some of her legends are too. But in many stories Nimue, whether good or evil, is a very strong character. It's too bad, Rossellini is such a great character, to be give such crap to work with.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] FurudeRika 18 years ago

Merlin ended Magic and Arthur Killed Mordred. They are the true bad guys in this film. I very much agree.

[–] m_newton17 18 years ago

(The REAL villian is Mordred. Mordred is a creature of pure venom. He exists purely to spite Arthur and Merlin. He born out of spite. He was vile to the end)

i agree with this i think it was mabs last attempt to create a human to do her bidding as she allowed merlin to grow up with aunty with love. She basically took it away from mordred as you can see when mag kills hes mother just like merlin although mordred doesnt care. Another fact was mordred didnt grow up like arthur hes grow was altered so hed grow faster and obviously wasnt fully human as in his strength and speed.

[–] benbigwig-1 17 years ago

I think the legend of Merlin is too complex to easily label some characters as "heroes" and others as "villains." It is the natural evolution of civilizations that prompts people to migrate from one faith to another, and this is symbolized in the film by the "forgetting" of Queen Mab.

[–] ozgirlfan 17 years ago

The Lady of the Lake said to Merlin "You are part human and will make mistakes" Merlin just went with what his heart believe to be right. Mab was the villian she did anything to try to get Merlin to switch sides by hurting everyone he cared about and creating Modred (who is pure evil) to kill Arthur. I don't know how you can argue this.

[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] DarcyBrandon 16 years ago

I felt sorry for Mab. She wasn't all bad. She was fighting for her survival. I mean, I wouldn't go off and die without a fight.

[–] zveda2000 16 years ago

Actually Mab did kill Merlin's mother, as she magically made her pregnant and then let her die when she "served her purpose". She wouldn't have died if Mab didn't need a surrogate for Merlin.

Mab also could have saved aunty May but let her die as well, which partly suggests that she made her sick as well.

Mab killed a whole bunch of people out of her selfishness. The worst thing that Merlin did was help Arthur's father bed that other lady -- even though this avoided a war and a lot of death.

So I don't see how you people can say that Mab is not a villain and Merlin is -- unless this is some kind of a feminist thing.

[–] sintancos_empress 16 years ago

She couldn't heal Mordred, even though she clearly wanted to- I wonder if perhaps she could have done that much for Ambrosia, even if she had wanted to. Also, I never got the impression that she made Ambrosia sick- Ambrosia was already ill when she appeared in the hut. I doubt Mab losing her temper did wonders for her already fragile health, but I don't believe Mab made her sick- she simply didn't really care that she was ill.

Whilst you also have a valid point about Merlin's mother- well, lots of women have died in childbirth over history- one might argue that the father killed the mother, as if they had never slept together, she would never have gotten pregnant. Again, I think, it's less a matter of Mab killing her, or wanting her dead, as that she just doesn't care whether she lives or not, as she has served her purpose, and thus become irrelevant.

Now, I'm not saying this is brilliant moral behaviour, but bear in mind, Mab isn't a human, she's an elemental, a goddess, if you will, or a Fae, if you'd rather that. Just because she resembles a human doesn't mean that her motives, values and reactions will resemble their human equivalent, too. And on the subject of selfishness, we have to remember that, at least for a goodly portion of the time, she was fighting for her people- the creatures of the Old Ways- as well as herself. By the end, she did seem to be more concentrated on revenge, but this doesn't seem to have been the case all the way through.

Also bear in mind that for centuries, Mab's followers have been persecuted by first the Romans, then the Christians, and with the increasing following of the New Religion, she and her kind are at risk of extinction. I think even a human might go harder and/or crueller in the circumstances, if they didn't simply give up.

BUT, saying that, I don't neccessarily think that Merlin was the villain as opposed to Mab. It was quite clear that in the story of "Merlin", Mab was the main antagonist, she was intended to be the villain by the writers/directors etc. My thoughts are that Merlin's own actions were not flawless, either. And him helping Uther DIDN'T avoid a lot of death- Uther slept with Igraine, had Cornwall and his men slain, and then lived out a long reign descending into madness, like his own father. I think with a little reworking, and the inclusion of a few scenes that never made it into the final version, Mab could have been shown as far more of a protangonist than antagonist, just as with a little reworking of some scenes, Merlin could have come across as a far more negative character than he did. It has to mean something, after all, that the first time I watched this film, I thought Mab was a "good guy" until about halfway through the first episode.

Try not to panic. Just think of it as landing a little more vertically than usual