MovieChat Forums > Snake Eyes (1998) Discussion > It's odd but... I'm with the 'Bad Guys' ...

It's odd but... I'm with the 'Bad Guys' on this one.


Not with their methods, but their reasons.

Just watched Gary Sinise give the whole speech about the sinking of the fictitious warship Renville, and how they needed a decent point defense missile system. The Air Guard system has 'glitches', he admits, but maintains they can be and need to be fixed.

Makes sense to me. Okay, the system doesn't work. Nobody discusses alternatives or competing missile systems. It sounds like whatever point defense they have doesn't work well, and if they could fix it, the Air Guard system would work.

Remember, this is fiction: I'm not making a statement regarding actual U.S. Navy anti-aircraft/anti-missile capability, just saying that, for the purposes of the movie, it seems like Air Guard would be a good bet.


Death to the Panopticon!

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Yeah, it's interesting. The question is if the reasons justify the methods. Killing people to get what you want. Maybe it would be a good system, but does that give someone the right to kill innocent people to get it by force? But nevertheless it's a comprehensible motivation for the Dunne character makes him more 3-dimensional. Not just a dumb bad guy...

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You said it perfectly. We all know the difference between right and wrong. Your not supposed to kill people. But, Sinise's speech is so compelling with the logic behind it; plus The sketchiness of Cage's character; makes it difficult to take a definite side. I think (obviously) the movie is made to make you side with Cage, but I love a movie that makes the villain understandable and even sympathetic towards him/them.

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You guys were spot-on. They had a pretty compelling reason, but it doesn't excuse their tactics. And while their proposed Air Guard system may or may not have eventually become effective, the military in this movie seemed to have forgotten that they serve the civilian government, not vice versa.

Thanks for the replies, guys. Good thoughts.

Death to the Panopticon!

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[deleted]

Let's see now. If we remove all the evil things done, such as the killing and the lying about the capabilities, then it would be a good thing to push this through the DOD and we, the tax payers, should foot the bill for it. From this we can conclude that Dunne should or at least could have been successful in convincing the DOD that the current failure in the system contemplated for continuing funding is regrettable but we should go ahead and continue funding it. After all, we really do need missile defense.

Well, one reason why such truth telling might not work is that the contractor would have competitors who might not be so ethical in their appraisal and would be quick to jump into the fray with their own spiel about where best to obtain these new weapons system and would find supporters in Congress that would rally to their side. This is a huge problem in defense system contracting. It breeds corruption and requires huge amounts of taxpayer funds just in order to keep building up a military, all of which is intended to keep us safe and secure -- basically from a message of fear and terror that are instilled into us every day.

James

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I could get behind Dunne a whole lot more if they wanted to kill a project that worked. I think that Dunne had more to gain finnancially, than the spin of him playing the patriot in this case.

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Haha--my wife agreed with him, too.


http://www.rateyourmusic.com/~JrnlofEddieDeezenStudies

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i actually agree with Dunne on this also.
my question is, the missile system had been tested for quite a while right? it had flaws, correct? and they would eventually have to fix it because they want a GOOD defense system right? grab the money powell invested in the operation and instead fix the d@mn thing, smoke the blonde/brunette and save all the trouble in the first place?

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Well, we also learn that there was a huge monetary gain with the implementation of the Air Guard.

So, Dunne's intentions not might be so righteous.

"C'mon...you're better than that!"

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Dunne had also mentioned that that senator pushed the testing ahead of schedule so it would fail and he wouldn't have to 'front the bill'.
I think it would have been a better ending if it wasn't that the whole program was being 'dismantled' etc. I guess we don't know if Dunne gives a similar speech at a trial or whatever to reveal that the project could be fixed but that senator rushed it.

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Hm, Dunne killed himself at the end of the movie, so no, he won't be going to trial and testifying, lol.

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I'm with Gary Sinise's character 100%.

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Why couldn't they just pay off the journalist as well...instead of killing her?

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Don't be a hater, dear. www.youtube.com/user/dinoatcharterdotnet

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I'm amazed at the absurdity of the people who agree with Sinise's character. Let me lay this out so I get it right.

1st: We need defense system to save lives and we don't have one.
2nd: Sinise believes the DoD doesn't want to make it because it's too expensive
3rd: We develop a system that doesn't work
4th: B/c of 1st we should allow to make a system that does not work.
5th: We fake results to give credence to results under the idea that because the principal reason for making is good at some point science will make it right via...magic?(I know he says time, but anyone who believes that logic is fairly simplistic, the person with the ideological belief in the need for the tool will continue it forever. Imagine if the government had that much faith in fusion power.)
6th: We kill people who try and tell the truth that we fake results for a machine that doesn't work.

Am I right? Did I get that straight. You all followed those 6th steps and said yes, yes that is correct?

This is how government money is wasted. We invest money in systems that don't work and when they don't work we continue to put money into them under the belief that close is better than nothing. The two failed ideas being that close, when it comes to something like laser missles is ever reasonable (Well We wanted to blow up that warship, but we hit the orphanage, but we were close). And that stopping of a failed project will lead to no ideas. To go back to the drawing board is not a sign of failure, but a sign of wisdom. [Funny thing, this sounds like the just launched F-35 which has been in development for 15 years, finally launched years behind schedule as a worse version of the planes they are suppose to be replacing, mainly continued through by politicians looking to pump money into the Military Industrial Complex and a false concept of patriotism]

More important you are able to trust the word of a man in a uniform who is in alliance with the company that gains economic advantage by the continuation of the project. There is little reason to believe Sinise when he is working for a man whose job is to make money off the government. That's called a War Profiteer, and they are a sleazy lot. They are the ones who make money as people die, more importantly they make money because people die. Don't let the uniform fool you, he is speaking as a war profiteer and not as a soldier, no matter how many touching stories he tells you (the story may also be an outlier, there is little reason to ever trust personal stories, but I'm very concerned that will upset too many of you as you shoot guns into the air).

So in the tl;dr section. You believe a war profiteer who makes money off the continuation of a machine in which there is little to no reason to think it will ever work at the expense of the public and never save any soldier's life.

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Dunne/Sinse isn't any better than the antagonists in that 1983 or 84 Eddie Murphy and Dudley Moore (Bomb of a) Movie, "Best Defense".

The Contractor Company owner (John Heard) let you know in the movie it was about $$$, not saving lives.

Also, don't forget they executed a Public Servant.

Even if Dunne was correct, why would you want such a person responsible for other people's lives, $$s,...when he's shown a psychotic propensity to do any and everything HE BELIEVES in?

He pulled a Gun on his (So Called) Best Friend.

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If you want to support/have sympathy for the bad guy I'd say watch "the rock" another Nicholas Cage movie, the bad guy is a war hero who just wants compensation for the families of US soldier's who died for their country under his command. the government refused to pay out as they didn't want to admit the soldiers died on top secret missions. It hard to choose who to route for in that movie.

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for the purposes of the movie, it seems like Air Guard would be a good bet


really why is that
deploy a faulty defensive system
you are under attack
defensive system doesnt work
...
good job

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