MovieChat Forums > Starship Troopers (1997) Discussion > Satire, Schmatire. Who cares?!

Satire, Schmatire. Who cares?!


It's just a boring, pointless, mess.
Yes THE SATIRE, if you insist on calling it that, is boring and pointless.
The first half is a snoozer soap opera (saved only by the shower scene). The second half is an extended exercise in stupidity. You have advanced technology enough to fly across the galaxy to another planet, to fight some fierce vicious aliens, but you're just going to use soft bodies on the ground and ancient technology machine guns with... lead bullets? Really? Why not just bring some drones that fly with giant cans of futuristic bug spray?
The special effects bugs were nicely done. That's about all this movie is good for.

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It's just a boring, pointless, mess.

I don't consider it either boring or pointless.

It's a monster hunt... a popcorn flick. When I'm in the mood for that, I put in the DVD and have fun.

If I want to watch Citizen Kane or 2001: A Space Odyssey, I'll watch those instead. Doesn't take away from what Doogie Howser, S.S. is.

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You have advanced technology enough to fly across the galaxy to another planet, to fight some fierce vicious aliens, but you're just going to use soft bodies on the ground and ancient technology machine guns with... lead bullets? Really?


It's exactly what the powers are doing, today. The mankind has the capacity to produce food and goods, FOR FREE. Yet here we are, the Establishment sends thousands and thousands of American citizens to die in Iraq, for what? For the owners of General Motors to keep their privileges, which depend on the Oil.

Look how they are making it extremely difficult for TESLA Motors to sell their electric cars, and solar power technology.

There really is no need for Oil, other than powering cars using a 100 years old technology. Isn't it stupid? Yes, it is. Yet thousands of Americans died in Iraq, for that stupid obsolete Oil...

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There really is no need for Oil, other than powering cars using a 100 years old technology. Isn't it stupid? Yes, it is. Yet thousands of Americans died in Iraq, for that stupid obsolete Oil...

But how does it refer to the movie? Are you saying that producers of machine guns and bullets forced the government to use such an ancient technology on the battlefield instead of modern big guns that would easily destroy all those aliens? Are they making it extremely difficult for producers of super weapons to sell their technology and put into standard use? That's how I see your analogy.

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But how does it refer to the movie? Are you saying that producers of machine guns and bullets forced the government to use such an ancient technology on the battlefield instead of modern big guns that would easily destroy all those aliens? Are they making it extremely difficult for producers of super weapons to sell their technology and put into standard use? That's how I see your analogy.


Think about it: the Klendathu system is 2000 light years away from Earth.

2000 light years means that if you travel with the speed of light, it takes you 2000 years to get to Klendathu, on the other side of the galaxy.

This means that humans have very developed technolog, if they're able to ship Rico to a planet 2000 light years away from his home in Buenos Aires, Earth.


This means that the Skymarshals are not interested in defeating the bugs! They could nuke them from orbit in no time.

The Skymarshals are interested in exterminating all those civilians, like Rico, who want to become citizens!

Citizenship means power!

But to get citizenship, you must serve in the military.

But serving in the military, means being shipped off 2000 light years away from the Skymarshals, given a stupid rifle and a t-shirt, and left to die at the claws of the hordes of giant bugs.

This way, the Skymarshals' Establishment will endure, unchallenged from within. Rico will not survive, to get his citizenship. And if he does survive, he will be maimed, like Rasczak or that amputee who gives him the papers, and tells him "Mobile Infantry made me the man that I am today"

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You're pretty much there on getting the points the film was trying to make.
You're already looking beyond the base entertainment aspect and latching on to concepts presented... Just need to see that the ridiculousness of everything therein was exactly what the director was trying to say...!

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Nice to hear how your version of Starship Troopers would be.

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by kirkwoodya;

"THE SATIRE ... is ... pointless."

No.

"The second half is an extended exercise in stupidity."

Characters in a movie acting in what is believed to be in dumb ways does not make a movie bad imo.
What needs to be shown for me is whether people do similar things in our world.

"You have advanced technology"

Is there advanced technology in our world?
Yes.

"you're just going to use soft bodies on the ground and ancient technology machine guns with... lead bullets?"

Are wars fought today using soft bodies with guns and lead bullets? Even by the most advanced countries?
Yes.

"giant cans of futuristic bug spray?"

That would be chemical weapons.
Do chemical weapons exist in our world? Yes.
Do advanced countries use them? Pretty much no.

* The satire in "Starship Troopers" works because it reflects behavior that happens in our world.

BB ;-)

it is just in my opinion - imo - 🌈

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The movie is a pointless, soulless shoot-em up and a complete bastardization of the novel. You're better off watching "Aliens" or reading the book instead. Also, "satire" doesn't make a piece of *beep* like this exempt from criticism.

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How do you know?
Did you watch the film?
If you did, then it achieved its objective.

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"How do you know?
Did you watch the film?"

No, I used telepathy. Of course I watched it, it's a soulless mess. If I hadn't have watched it, I wouldn't have commented in the first place.

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No, I used telepathy.

WOW, you're amazing......
Will you teach me your ways, Master?

If I hadn't have watched it, I wouldn't have commented in the first place.

Never can tell with IMDB, so it's best not to assume.

But yes, it served it's purpose. It got you to watch. More so, if you actually paid money for the privilege!

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"But yes, it served it's purpose. It got you to watch. More so, if you actually paid money for the privilege!"

Every movie's purpose is to get you watch. I didn't pay to see this, so that's the one "privilege" I got from it. The other was when it rolled to the credits, ending this miserable experience.

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Oh woe, miserable experience, whine, whine, whine...
Are you incapable of turning the film off, or something?
If it was THAT bad, surely you'd have done this?

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I was watching the movie with an open mind. When I watch a movie, I don't just go into it thinking "YEAH, THIS MOVIE IS GOING TO SUCK!". I thought it would pick up, hence why I didn't turn this dreck off in the first place. Pardon me for expecting better.

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And so you watched it right to the credits...
Whatever!

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"And so you watched it right to the credits..."

Hard to form any kind of opinion about a movie if one were to suddenly turn it off before credits rolled. Kind of counterintuitive, don't you think?

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Not really - I've walked out of several films before once I had ascertained they weren't going anywhere. It's not difficult... It's also not very intuitive, rather than being counterintuitive - Sitting through a film you're blatantly not enjoying, thinking it will get much better, right up to the very end is not only lacking any intuition, but very counter to the whole purpose of intuition.

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"Sitting through a film you're blatantly not enjoying, thinking it will get much better, right up to the very end is not only lacking any intuition, but very counter to the whole purpose of intuition." You can't write a review or an essay from watching only five minutes of the damn thing; in order to properly form a legitimate opinion, one has to watch the whole film to take note of its contents to see if praise is warranted. Unfortunately, due to how it is framed and set up, it doesn't.

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So when are you going to write a review or an essay?
Your 'legitimate opinion' so far comprises a single sentence...

And if you're really not enjoying or otherwise engaged by a film in the first hour, it's pretty sound to bet it's not getting good enough to warrant more of your time any time soon...

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Wrote it years ago for a class. I don't know if I still have it. Do you want me to elaborate?


"And if you're really not enjoying or otherwise engaged by a film in the first hour, it's pretty sound to bet it's not getting good enough to warrant more of your time any time soon..."

Occasionally one finds a diamond in the rough. Here it's pretty much a turd with bits of corn.

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Wrote it years ago for a class. I don't know if I still have it. Do you want me to elaborate?

Might have been better than just whining on a forum...

Occasionally one finds a diamond in the rough. Here it's pretty much a turd with bits of corn.

And yet you can't tell without seeing it from every angle?
Enjoy wasting your time, then...

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"And yet you can't tell without seeing it from every angle?"

Usually you could, but the devil is in the details. If you want to form an argument, you tend to them. Otherwise, whatever you will say won't stand up. Simple as that.

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Given the lack of detail in your comments regarding it, that says it all.

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Evolution just loves to get into an argument if you say anything bad about a movie he likes. Hell he thought The Mist was a great Cineomatic expirence. And that it shouldn't have benn branished the worst movie. Did he mention he wrote a paper for class? Was it for the 6'th Grade? He seems like a little Fan Boy. To bad some poeple need social accetance on the internet via twitter or facebook. Oh and love the people that critisise spelling that has nothing to do with getting any point across other than trying to disallow your your opinion because you mispell something and god forbid didn't use spell check ha ha. Like your views and good luck on continuied arguments with Evolution.

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I don't really care if someone dislikes a film, so long as they can say why beyond a quick capsule opinion of nominalisations.

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I do agree

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"Hell he thought The Mist was a great Cineomatic expirence. And that it shouldn't have benn branished the worst movie"

Compared to other films of its genre and budget, it was much better than some of the crap out there. You don't have to like it, but to say that it's the worst movie is pretty disingenuous.

"Did he mention he wrote a paper for class? Was it for the 6'th Grade?"

Try university.


"He seems like a little Fan Boy."

Pretty presumptuous on your part, though it sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black.


"Oh and love the people that critisise spelling that has nothing to do with getting any point across other than trying to disallow your your opinion because you mispell something and god forbid didn't use spell check ha ha."

Funny, 'cause I never did that when we chatted. I think you're confusing me with someone else. Criticising spelling has nothing to do with getting any point across nor can it be used to disallow your opinion, that's true.....but it doesn't help if what's written is done in chicken scratch and prevents people from understanding your points. If English isn't your first language or you have some sort of mental disorder, fine - that's understandable. If not, then you have no excuse to butcher the English language.

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Since you want to know the details, I'll elaborate on what makes it a bad movie. Keep in mind, this is just a rough approximation to what I had written.

The novel from which it was loosely "based" was, in essence, a political essay and a soldier's guide. It was one of the first - if not the first - real science fiction stories that had realistically portrayed the life of a soldier and intergalactic warfare, creating a foundation for movies and video games such as "Aliens" and "Halo" among countless others. What made it especially powerful, though, was in its depiction of a society where citizenship can only be attained through military duty - the amount of detail and the persuasiveness of Heinlein's writing and arguments made it seem like a frighteningly viable society.

In terms of the movie - hooh boy, where do I begin? As a film, it's an uneven mess that wanders between mocking fascism (though it never gives a reason as to why) and celebrating/valorizing the efforts of its characters in support of it, violence and all.


Speaking of which, the characters are especially where the film suffers. Paul Verhoeven doesn't treat his characters as human beings at all, nor does he give the leads any "depth"; Johnny Rico and his girlfriend are nothing more than real-life Barbie and Ken dolls of the Aryan persuasion. In fact, Verhoeven seems more interested in the various and extreme lengths that characters can be tortured, mutilated and humiliated. When he is not focusing on violence and action, he focuses on nudity and sexuality, and the latter two seemed incredibly misplaced and done with no reason other than "just because". There is no subtlety. The same thing could be said about Verhoeven's other movies including "Robocop", "Total Recall" and "Hollow Man", that they rely on ultra-violence and sexuality and are exercises in schadenfreude, but here it's especially evident, making the film a soulless and dehumanizing experience. All flash, but no effect (which actually is a perfect summation for Verhoeven himself as a director and for his movies).

The other problem I have with the movie is that it's largely unconvincing - I never thought for a moment while watching that the people on-screen were soldiers. There was no sense of coordination or unit cohesion, they didn't move or acted like soldiers; they only seemed like actors trying to play soldiers. The same with the sets - there was no sense that these had been actual places or looked like they had been lived in by said-"soldiers".


I'll give the movie credit for its special effects - the creatures and CGI were phenomenal. But, with that said, there were so many striking elements within the book that could have been featured such as the planetary drops, the heavy armors, the skinnies, the neodogs, the socio-political aspects and so on. As it is, it's nothing more than a shoot-em up, and a very unenjoyable one at that.

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As a film, it's an uneven mess that wanders between mocking fascism (though it never gives a reason as to why) and celebrating/valorizing the efforts of its characters in support of it, violence and all.

I would argue that the characters are the ones celebrating, while the audience are expected to realise the absurdity of the fascist culture that drives them to it and to further mock their efforts.

Speaking of which, the characters are especially where the film suffers.

Depends which characters...

Paul Verhoeven doesn't treat his characters as human beings at all,

Bollocks... Dina Meyer, Clancy Brown and Michael Ironside deliver some great performances. In fact, this is one of my favourite Ironside roles. A couple others seem promising, but they don't get that much screen time.

nor does he give the leads any "depth"; Johnny Rico and his girlfriend are nothing more than real-life Barbie and Ken dolls of the Aryan persuasion.

While that may appear to be true, I would argue that is a limitation of the actors, neither of whom are particularly acclaimed or anything. I am aware of a couple roles where..... errrr....... (tries to think of her name).... Denise Richards has been cast as a main character and she plays the exact same person as in SST. Caper Van Dien, however..... I know he was in SST3.... No idea about anything else.
They tried to get Mark Wahlberg, but he wasn't interested.

So either the actors in the roles are just crap, or Verhoeven is awful. Given how many of his other films feature great characters portrayed by decent actors, I'd say it's more the casting at fault. Certainly everyone in SST does look like they were generally chosen for their 'Wholesome American' pretty boy looks...

In fact, Verhoeven seems more interested in the various and extreme lengths that characters can be tortured, mutilated and humiliated. When he is not focusing on violence and action, he focuses on nudity and sexuality, and the latter two seemed incredibly misplaced and done with no reason other than "just because".

Yeah.... that's kinda what he does... Might as well complain that Woody Allen films are set in/around New York and are always about sex, adultery and relationships... especially involving a writer... played by him...!

But yeah - Basic Instinct, Flesh+Blood, Showgirls... that's just a Verhoeven thing. It does have a bit of a generally Dutch feel to it too, though.
[on his filmmaking style] "American critics always complain about the blandness of mainstream movies, but when you do something more ambiguous and ironic, they are pissed off too. I like putting certain aspects of American society under the magnifying glass and showing them for what they are".

but here it's especially evident, making the film a soulless and dehumanizing experience.

That sounds like his intended impact...
Don't forget, he wasn't trying to make a film of the book - He didn't even like the book.
In fact, the script was originally a different and unrelated film entirely (not even written by Verhoeven). Someone later pointed out that the script was very similar to this SST novel they'd never heard of, so they went to get the rights to film that and only afterward managed to read the book.

The other problem I have with the movie is that it's largely unconvincing

Is it *supposed* to be, though?
Are they supposed to be an elite force of highy trained combatants?
Or are they intended to be the clueless cannon-fodder of a planet that doesn't even know what it's fighting, let alone how to prepare it's military for it?

There was no sense of coordination or unit cohesion, they didn't move or acted like soldiers; they only seemed like actors trying to play soldiers.

There was a time when moving tactically, hiding, skirmishing and the like was considered cowardly and very UN-soldierlike... thankfully we've moved on from the Napoleonics and walking in a gentlemanly fashion across No Mans' Land, but still - Who knows what the soldiers of the future are supposed to be?
But this is the future (and a fictional one at that), a near-utopia where warfare has degenerated into whoever can stomp with the biggest boot wins. The need for strategy and tactics seems to have fallen by the wayside somewhat, as evidenced by Ace's comment about just nuking the enemy.

The same with the sets - there was no sense that these had been actual places or looked like they had been lived in by said-"soldiers".

Do they have to?
They look far better than many stage sets, yet those are sufficient to assist the story, so why not these?

I'll give the movie credit for its special effects - the creatures and CGI were phenomenal.

Strange how you're so easily impressed in that regard... Even back then, I thought they were *beep* *beep*

But, with that said, there were so many striking elements within the book that could have been featured such as the planetary drops, the heavy armors, the skinnies, the neodogs, the socio-political aspects and so on.

Again, not meant to be a film of the book.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that this is Verhoeven being antagonistic toward the book he didn't like - Apparently he read through the first few chapters and became bored and depressed.
"I stopped after two chapters because it was so boring,...It is really quite a bad book. I asked Ed Neumeier to tell me the story because I just couldn't read the thing. It's a very right-wing book".

The original novel was heavily criticized for apparently promoting fascism and militaristic rule, which is why Verhoeven's film deliberately satirizes the same themes.


So in short, you seem like many others who are upset that this is not a direct film of the book.
I happen to adore the book myself, so I can understand your dislike... but while most readers understand where Heinlein was coming from, I think it is exceedingly rude and discourteous to not similarly consider where Verhoeven was coming from as well.
If it helps, consider the film as a totally separate tale - SST in name only, as it were.
I find the biggest complaint is the lack of Powered Armour suits, which I personally think have been done to death as Mechs or Mech Warriors in soooooooo many films already. But still, they appeared in the 3rd film, so everyone can be happy.

If English isn't your first language or you have some sort of mental disorder, fine - that's understandable. If not, then you have no excuse to butcher the English language.

It's already been butchered, trimmed, sold, cooked and served up in a number of different styles in a number of different restaurants... So long as you have the intelligence to understand what's being said, who cares?

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"I would argue that the characters are the ones celebrating, while the audience are expected to realise the absurdity of the fascist culture that drives them to it and to further mock their efforts."

I'm sorry, but I call BS. We have a movie here that at one moment starts off with a mock-PA, treating about everything as some sort of black joke, but then suddenly decides to pose Rico in a positive heroic light where we're supposed to be cheering for him, be it his springing in to action against the giant fire-spewing beetle or having him save his girlfriend. We're supposed to celebrate humanity's victory over the Bugs and Rico saving his girlfriend....but then later said-heroism and victory is undercut to sadistic scenes of torture? You can't have a movie be both a satire indicting the extreme mindless violence and xenophobia of a militaristic society on the one hand then do an about-face and offer a salute in support of them. To quote my grandmother, "This smells funny, I'm not going to eat it."

"Bollocks... Dina Meyer, Clancy Brown and Michael Ironside deliver some great performances. In fact, this is one of my favourite Ironside roles. A couple others seem promising, but they don't get that much screen time."

In general, his characters were nothing more than meat waiting to be tossed into the grinder.


"Yeah.... that's kinda what he does... Might as well complain that Woody Allen films are set in/around New York and are always about sex, adultery and relationships... especially involving a writer... played by him...!

But yeah - Basic Instinct, Flesh+Blood, Showgirls... that's just a Verhoeven thing. It does have a bit of a generally Dutch feel to it too, though.
[on his filmmaking style] "American critics always complain about the blandness of mainstream movies, but when you do something more ambiguous and ironic, they are pissed off too. I like putting certain aspects of American society under the magnifying glass and showing them for what they are"."

It doesn't matter - it still doesn't excuse Verhoeven. I don't give a f$ck if it's his "filmmaking style" or whatever.

"That sounds like his intended impact...
Don't forget, he wasn't trying to make a film of the book - He didn't even like the book.
In fact, the script was originally a different and unrelated film entirely (not even written by Verhoeven). Someone later pointed out that the script was very similar to this SST novel they'd never heard of, so they went to get the rights to film that and only afterward managed to read the book."

I know all about that. In terms of it "his intended impact", in general brutality and sadism seems to be it and only it. At least with "Robocop" the results were somewhat entertaining and wasn't a total waste, but even that film seemed to have been pure happenstance.


"So in short, you seem like many others who are upset that this is not a direct film of the book.
I happen to adore the book myself, so I can understand your dislike... but while most readers understand where Heinlein was coming from, I think it is exceedingly rude and discourteous to not similarly consider where Verhoeven was coming from as well."

Only partly why I dislike it. A movie can't be both satirical and the very thing it is supposed to be. It felt like he had wanted to have his cake and eat it.

"I think it is exceedingly rude and discourteous to not similarly consider where Verhoeven was coming from as well."

If there had been consistency and more to it, maybe.

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We have a movie here that at one moment starts off with a mock-PA, treating about everything as some sort of black joke,

Which is your first cue that this isn't going to be a totally serious film, yes...?

but then suddenly decides to pose Rico in a positive heroic light where we're supposed to be cheering for him,

Are you?
He's an idiot, hyped up on propaganda, trapped in the Infantry because he was thinking only with his dick, and now sent to his meaningless death at the hands of a big ugly bug...
I was kinda hoping he'd remain a statistic and let Dizzy at least find herself a man who realized what a catch she was!

We're supposed to celebrate humanity's victory over the Bugs and Rico saving his girlfriend....but then later said-heroism and victory is undercut to sadistic scenes of torture?

Yeah, that's the point - These are not the 100% wholesome All-American HEE-roes of old war films... These are idiot children with guns.

You can't have a movie be both a satire indicting the extreme mindless violence and xenophobia of a militaristic society on the one hand then do an about-face and offer a salute in support of them.

The film is NOT saluting them. The fictonal culture of the fictional characters is saluting them. YOU are supposed to think they're fascist retards and hope you don't run into any of them down some dark corner of the galaxy!!

In general, his characters were nothing more than meat waiting to be tossed into the grinder.

A lot of them were, yes and that is exactly teh kind of anti-war sentiment you're supposed to be feeling throughout this film.

It doesn't matter - it still doesn't excuse Verhoeven. I don't give a f$ck if it's his "filmmaking style" or whatever.

Doesn't excuse...?
Then you better go tell him that to his face, because I'm sure your one mere opinion would garner an official apology for all his abysmal works that have failed in the eyes of... oh, one person, and do SO much to change the face of Hollywood as we know it... Go do the same to Michael Bay while you're at it, yeh?

Just what is he 'not excused' from, here, anyway?
Are you trying to tell me that EVERY film MUST conform to an exact set of features, measures of subtlety, casting of only 30-year RSC veterans and some other such crap, of which you are the adjudicator?

Name me five directors who YOU think are oh-so-great and I will rip them to pieces with the exact same BS argument you just tried there.

You either dislike his style, and/or just don't get it. Either way, those films are massively popular so you're in the minority - At which point, big whoop, who cares... I don't like Tarantino, Allen, or a number of other popular directors. Doesn't mean their particular styles are BS or anything...

I know all about that. In terms of it "his intended impact", in general brutality and sadism seems to be it and only it.

Then I guess you can lump Oliver Stone and Stanley Kubrick in with Verhoeven, yes?
I mean FMJ and Platoon were utter brutality and violent bollocks too, right...?
Same sentiment, same intended impact, same result, no?

Only partly why I dislike it. A movie can't be both satirical and the very thing it is supposed to be. It felt like he had wanted to have his cake and eat it.

You seem to think it was being something it's not... The film was a comic-book style satire on fascism. The fact that the human characters and culture was fascist is the point, but the film itself was definitely not fascist.

If there had been consistency and more to it, maybe.

It was perfectly consistent.
How was it not?

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"The film is NOT saluting them."

Hard to refute it considering the way it is framed.

"A lot of them were, yes and that is exactly teh kind of anti-war sentiment you're supposed to be feeling throughout this film."

In theory it would, but given Verhoeven's disposition towards violence and his tendency to linger on it, it felt less like an anti-war sentiment as it was exercising some sick part of him that gets off on schadenfreude.


"Then you better go tell him that to his face, because I'm sure your one mere opinion would garner an official apology for all his abysmal works that have failed in the eyes of... oh, one person, and do SO much to change the face of Hollywood as we know it... Go do the same to Michael Bay while you're at it, yeh?"

Funny you compare him with Michael Bay, as that's actually appropriate. Are you done? You can rant, rave, hell even scream from a mountaintop to defend him and this turd of a movie, but there's nothing one can do to keep from calling a spade a spade. Do I dislike his "style"? If by "style" you mean nothing but schadenfreude, then yes. The only film I marginally enjoyed and thought his best was "Robocop".


"Are you trying to tell me that EVERY film MUST conform to an exact set of features, measures of subtlety, casting of only 30-year RSC veterans and some other such crap, of which you are the adjudicator?"

No, not "every" film must conform to some set of features and measure of subtlety. With that said, if all you have going is to bludgeon the audience with sex and violence in an dehumanizing way along with unsympathetic characters and nothing else, there are going to be problems.


"Then I guess you can lump Oliver Stone and Stanley Kubrick in with Verhoeven, yes?"

No, because at least with Kubrick there's purpose. There's a sort of cool, almost clinical detachment in his works that Verhoeven lacks. Kubrick would often show the insane rationalism of his subjects, and with terrific effect. Verhoeven is all noise, scatological even.


"You seem to think it was being something it's not"

It felt like a movie that had been trying to be both and get away with it.

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Hard to refute it considering the way it is framed.

I guess Verhoeven mistakenly assumed the audience would have a modicum of sense...

In theory it would, but given Verhoeven's disposition towards violence and his tendency to linger on it, it felt less like an anti-war sentiment as it was exercising some sick part of him that gets off on schadenfreude.

Sounds more like you're projecting, to be honest...
He is showing how all this is bad. How can you possibly think this is advocacy of any kind???!!!
You sure you actually watched the film, yeh?

Funny you compare him with Michael Bay, as that's actually appropriate.

He sounds more your kind of level anyway, to be honest. Verhoeven's concepts are fast proving to be a bit complicated for you... which is kinda saying something, given Showgirls!

You can rant, rave, hell even scream from a mountaintop to defend him

I'm not defending him - I'm questioning *your* basic understanding of some very simple and obvious concepts...

there's nothing one can do to keep from calling a spade a spade.

Then why don't you try doing so instead of trying to convince yourself and others that it's a spatula?

Do I dislike his "style"? If by "style" you mean nothing but schadenfreude, then yes.

Ah, the ol' schadenfreude again... Third time this thread, innit?
Wanna bring in zeitgeist too? Then you'll sound even more intellectual, while hiding the fact that you don't actually know what you're talking about.
This is not a complicated film, yet you seem so entangled with trying to wrangle intellectualism all around it that you're overcomplicating it and yourself, to the point where you can no longer see that it's really as simple as presented.

With that said, if all you have going is to bludgeon the audience with sex and violence in an dehumanizing way along with unsympathetic characters and nothing else, there are going to be problems.

Keep in mind the target audience, yeh?

No, because at least with Kubrick there's purpose. There's a sort of cool, almost clinical detachment in his works that Verhoeven lacks.

Bollocks.
Kubrick was a mindless, inarticulate oaf unable to conquer foundless fears and produced nothing more than a string of personal abuse hurled at the world, under the pretense of film. The epicaricacy portrayed in his films are clearly the outpourings of an unhinged mind and he should have been locked up instead of given a salary.

Verhoeven is all noise, scatological even.

And yet you're deaf even to that...

It felt like a movie that had been trying to be both and get away with it.

You're looking for things that aren't there. Take it as presented and try not to overthink yourself into a tizzy...


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"I guess Verhoeven mistakenly assumed the audience would have a modicum of sense..."

His mistake is believing that inundating his audience with mass slaughter just for the sake of laughs will excuse the fact that this is a terrible movie and satire. A person with a modicum of sense would be smart enough to look past the bull$hit, analyze the movie and see it for what it is - trash. As a "satire", it is a failure; it is a lesser parody at best. He bombards the screen with mock-public service announcements, some of it done in the style of Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will", portrays a fascist society complete with soldiers and doctors dressed like SS personnel - all of which are played with no subtlety at all...but does nothing else.

What is the movie's message?

Verhoeven: "....FASCISM IS BAD!....YEAH!....AND BOOBIES! BOOBIES AND GUTS ARE COOL!"

Why? What about fascism are you condemning?

Verhoeven: "...BECAUSE.....BECAUSE...BECAUSE FASCISM IS BAD! UHHH......HERE ARE SOME BOOBIES, DON'T YOU LIKE BOOBIES?! NO?! THEN HOW ABOUT SOME GORE?! LET'S JUST PILE THAT F$CKER ON!"

Here's what you need to understand about satire:
"Satire is a genre of literature, and sometimes graphic and performing arts, in which vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, corporations, government or society itself, into improvement."

What separates "satire" from "parody" is that the latter is nothing more than imitation just for the sake of a laugh. The former, however, has a higher moral ground and is more subtle, often used to interrogate social issues. It doesn't have to be funny, but when done well, it can be used to incite change.

Consider, for example, the satire and metaphor for the original 1954 "Godzilla - on the surface, it's your standard monster movie, a hybrid of "King Kong" and "Beast of 20,000 Fathoms". However, when analyzed fully, it is a vicious indictment of nuclear testing, loaded with raw emotion, offering a number of socio-political commentary including the horrors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It can only be described as a scream of prolonged agony manifested into cinematic form and a prayer for peace. By turning the mad scientist trope on its head, we end up with Dr. Serizawa, a character who is not only the key to stopping Godzilla, but also the voice of moral responsibility for technology such as the atom bomb.
That is satire.

"He (Michael Bay) sounds more your kind of level anyway, to be honest. Verhoeven's concepts are fast proving to be a bit complicated for you..."

You overestimate him. I'll reluctantly give him credit for "Robocop" as proof of his competence, but "Starship Troopers"? A five year-old could figure it out.

"Sounds more like you're projecting, to be honest...
He is showing how all this is bad. How can you possibly think this is advocacy of any kind???!!!
You sure you actually watched the film, yeh?"


As a movie, it's divided unto itself and lacks effect - on one hand the movie invites the audience to laugh in supposed mockery at this fascist society, its characters, violence and xenophobia, but on the other hand the movie wants its audience to thoughtlessly revel in it all in an enthusiastic cheer. It features barn-broad satiric touches such as a military flogging shot like sweat-drenched S&M porn, screamingly obvious recruiting ads, vagina-mouthed aliens, and military scientists who dress like SS monsters. None of this is at all subtle or in any way a unique statement—it’s parody without the moral high-ground that true satire requires. Verhoeven has nothing to say in Starship Troopers except fascism is bad and Hollywood loves sex and violence. The trouble is, Hollywood loves sex and violence only slightly less than Verhoeven himself, so who is he critiquing exactly?


"Ah, the ol' schadenfreude again... Third time this thread, innit?
Wanna bring in zeitgeist too? Then you'll sound even more intellectual, while hiding the fact that you don't actually know what you're talking about."

It has nothing to do with "sounding intellectual", it's calling it for what it is, which is Verhoeven having a wank at the expense of peoples' sufferings, something not even you can deny. As a director, Verhoeven never seems particularly sympathetic to any of his heroes and heroines; in fact, they are barely likable as people and there's very little in the way warmth and sentimentalism. Most of the character arcs of the heroes/heroines in Verhoeven’s films are defined simply by their learning to toughen up in a world of hard and brutal edges, all of which involve brutal punishment, sadistic despatches and humiliations on their own persons.

"Keep in mind the target audience, yeh?"

Who, sadomasochistic freaks?


"You're looking for things that aren't there. Take it as presented and try not to overthink yourself into a tizzy..."

Ah yes, anti-intellectualism and uncritical thought at its finest. I see Verhoeven has trained you well in being mindlessly obeisant and turning a blind eye to the obvious. If you actually took the time to actually think for a moment and take note of the details, you may find that nothing about this film is made of silver and gold.

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His mistake is believing that inundating his audience with mass slaughter just for the sake of laughs

And at that point I need to stop you...
These aren't meant to be laughs. If you're laughing at this, then I believe you have a schadenfreude problem...
Certainly the violence, and the cinematography in general, has a cartoony/comic-book styling, but that does not equate to comedic intent.

will excuse the fact that this is a terrible movie and satire.

Again with the excusing...
Why do you think Verhoeven needs to excuse himself to you?
The work is delivered as he intended and he stands by it. If it's not to your tastes, that's up to you, but to expect some kind of justification for not meeting whatever personal requirements you might have is just arrogant and stupid.

A person with a modicum of sense would be smart enough to look past the bull$hit, analyze the movie and see it for what it is - trash.

If you're seeing trash, you're still looking directly at the surface presentation, instead of past it. So much for being smart...

Verhoeven: "...BECAUSE.....BECAUSE...BECAUSE FASCISM IS BAD! UHHH......HERE ARE SOME BOOBIES, DON'T YOU LIKE BOOBIES?! NO?! THEN HOW ABOUT SOME GORE?! LET'S JUST PILE THAT F$CKER ON!"

Again, I ask - Did you actually watch this film, or simply catch part of the trailer?

What separates "satire" from "parody" is that the latter is nothing more than imitation just for the sake of a laugh.

Here's what YOU need to understand about parody - Parody *is* satirical. There is no separation - It's very nature is satire. Go back to your Wikipedia page or wherever you ripped that quote from and read more than just the first line, yeh!

The former, however, has a higher moral ground and is more subtle, often used to interrogate social issues.

Says who?
Who says satire *must* be subtle? You?
Some of it can be, but in general the very point of satire is 'to hold things up for ridicule'. Making it subtle means it's more likely to go unnoticed and so defeats the purpose, while bordering on oxymora.
And yet, you seem to have widely missed those parts of SST that *are* more subtle. Not once have you even mentioned the cultural psychology, the juxtaposition of imagery, or the critique of the tribal mentality.

As for moral high ground - This is purposely presented as an action film, where audiences do naturally cheer for the hero, yet in this the heroes are BLATANT fascists... If anything, Verhoeven does have that moral high ground, because the audience *are* cheering for the fascists, despite knowing that fascism is so wrong. It's a nice parallel of the novel, while also criticizing it.

However, when analyzed fully, it is a vicious indictment of nuclear testing, loaded with raw emotion, offering a number of socio-political commentary blah blah blah blah the atom bomb.

No, it is just a monster movie. Any moron can see past the *beep* and discern the film for what it truly is - Trash!
See - When you selectively ignore parts of the whole film, you get the same result as your ill-considered opinion of SST.
"Wherefore the multitude of thy thorns to him that toucheth thy fruit?"

You overestimate him. I'll reluctantly give him credit for "Robocop" as proof of his competence, but "Starship Troopers"? A five year-old could figure it out.

So how come you can't? Are you only 4½, or something?
If anything, SST is far superior to Robocop.

As a movie, it's divided unto itself and lacks effect - on one hand the movie invites the audience to laugh in supposed mockery at this fascist society, its characters, violence and xenophobia, but on the other hand the movie wants its audience to thoughtlessly revel in it all in an enthusiastic cheer.

If that's what you're seeing in it....
Again, I say you're missing the point if you think you're supposed to revel thoughtlessly in this violence and you're no different to those who do the same during the beach landing sequences of Saving Private Ryan.
Sounds like you're only seeing what you want to see... which is the boobs and violence.
Not saying that's a bad thing either, as I'd *love* to see more of Dina Meyer's boobs. But you can't then get all picky and up your own backside about your perceived lack of overintellectualised claptrap simply on the basis of ignoring it when it's right in front of you. That is just retarded.

Revel, by all means, but *think* about what you're revelling in and *why* you're revelling...

It features barn-broad satiric touches such as a military flogging shot like sweat-drenched S&M porn, screamingly obvious recruiting ads, vagina-mouthed aliens, and military scientists who dress like SS monsters.

Where the *beep* do YOU live, that vaginas look like that???!!! Remind me not to visit...
It also features many less in-your-face satiric touches, such as the juxtaposition of a society that plasters the gruesome dead bodies of slaughtered humans all over the news, yet censors the mutilaton of a cow.
Or was that too subtle for you?

The trouble is, Hollywood loves sex and violence only slightly less than Verhoeven himself, so who is he critiquing exactly?

He loves it, does he?
A man whose early years were governed by fascist violence and the Nazi occupation of his country, where the neighbourhood was regularly bombed and bodies littered the streets... you really think he's a fan of all that?
The critique is levelled at the audience, Hollywood, the industry, the various genres, the novel, vrious cultures and nations... pretty straightforward on that front.

It has nothing to do with "sounding intellectual",

I would hope not, since you fail badly on that count... but it certainly sounds like you're trying!

it's calling it for what it is, which is Verhoeven having a wank at the expense of peoples' sufferings, something not even you can deny.

It's lending modish, de riguer terminology, typically of foreign wording, to appear avant garde, while ignoring the fact that there already are perfectly good words of your own language that adequately describe it... in short, being a pretentious wanker.
As for wanking - It's not Verhoeven doing that. The audience is encouranged to do so, while also seeing and knowing that it's wrong.

As a director, Verhoeven never seems particularly sympathetic to any of his heroes and heroines; in fact, they are barely likable as people and there's very little in the way warmth and sentimentalism.

So what?
Where is it writ that he has to be?
Are you sympathetic to all the people you meet in real life? Is everyone you meet a wonderful, likeable person?
I find most of Tarrantino's characters to be complete pricks, Scott's to be dull, Spielberg's to be dripping with icing sugar and Scorsese's to be utterly foul human beings... and yet they all made some fantastic films around such characters.

Most of the character arcs of the heroes/heroines in Verhoeven’s films are defined simply by their learning to toughen up in a world of hard and brutal edges, all of which involve brutal punishment, sadistic despatches and humiliations on their own persons.

So it's not an in-depth character study... what's your point?
Does every film have to be?

Who, sadomasochistic freaks?

So you claim Verhoeven is inconsistent... and yet here's you, a Daily Mirror reader, getting all Daily Mail about the film while at the same time trying to be all Guardian in your lambasting, not realising you're actually reading The Sun!

Ah yes, anti-intellectualism and uncritical thought at its finest.

Not at all.
You are looking for some specific subtle and clever things in the film, in the hope that you can understand it and feel clever about yourself, yet are missing the parts of the film that actually are clever... I'm all in favour of intellectualism, where appropriate and necessary. In your case, you're stumbling over the first sentence, which is why I suggest you stop trying and just enjoy what's presented.

I see Verhoeven has trained you well in being mindlessly obeisant and turning a blind eye to the obvious.

Matthew 7:3.

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"And at that point I need to stop you...
These aren't meant to be laughs. If you're laughing at this, then I believe you have a schadenfreude problem...
Certainly the violence, and the cinematography in general, has a cartoony/comic-book styling, but that does not equate to comedic intent."


Really? These scenes of slaughter aren't meant to invoke laughter, eh? Apparently you haven't seen the movie. Are you sure you have seen the movie?
Because just right after the first public service announcement, done in the style of Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will" no less, we get a brief clip of Rico's first landing on Klendathu with a Net Correspondent, played out like this:

Net Correspondent: It's an ugly planet. A BUG planet! A planet hostile to life-

[Reporter is attacked and maimed by an arachnid]


What about the scenes where during combat training a guy gets his arm broken, Ace's hand is used for target practice and another character gets his own brains blown out with a live round, resulting in Rico's public flogging? Those weren't played for laughs? There were so many other examples.



"The work is delivered as he intended and he stands by it. If it's not to your tastes, that's up to you, but to expect some kind of justification for not meeting whatever personal requirements you might have is just arrogant and stupid."

So, my expecting a good movie, let alone a good satire was too much to ask? As a satire, it is the most gutless, toothless example I've ever seen - it sought to horrify its audience with fascism's mindlessness, yet at the same time wanted said-audience to fist-pump in the air and revel in said-mindlessness for entertainment's sake.

"Here's what YOU need to understand about parody - Parody *is* satirical."

It is and it isn't. They're both related to humor, and indeed parody is a tool used within satire, but the two are not the same.

"He loves it, does he?
A man whose early years were governed by fascist violence and the Nazi occupation of his country, where the neighbourhood was regularly bombed and bodies littered the streets... you really think he's a fan of all that? "


A fan of fascism, perhaps not. With that said, though, his work all points to him being a person in love with sex and violence on a hugely uncomfortable level. In all of the movies that I've seen of his, there's a grotesque tendency on his part to focus lovingly on those particular aspects. You might even sputter to defend him, saying "But-but tons of Hollywood movie directors do that!". Yeah....but Verhoeven is the most blaringly obvious of the bunch, and one of Hollywood's worst offenders in that regard. The way he lingered on the sadism of Alex Murphy's torture and execution, the callous disregard he has for every single one of his characters in his films as he forces whatever horribly violent and/or humiliating fate upon them is akin to watching a child who likes cutting the heads off dolls. "Starship Troopers" is one of the worst offenders in this case.


"So it's not an in-depth character study... what's your point?
Does every film have to be?"

No, not every film has to be an "in-depth character study", but that shouldn't excuse him from letting his libido take control over every single thing he does with bludgeoning abandon whenever he felt like it.


"yet are missing the parts of the film that actually are clever...""I suggest you stop trying and just enjoy what's presented."


That would require watching the movie again, and quite frankly, watching it once was once too many. On a reflective note in your favor, however, I think I might see why it might have appeal - when the movie had been released it was back in 1997. Is it possible that current social climes have made this movie more relevant, with the disillusioned finding something they recognize? Is it possible the movie truly is a diamond in the rough, and it is only under these circumstances that certain features have been made pellucid? Or are the people that are trying to find value in it, the disillusioned, just staring at shadows flickering on the wall, trying to find something that isn't there?
This does offer some food for thought.


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Really? These scenes of slaughter aren't meant to invoke laughter, eh?

Again, if you're laughing at those, you're the schadenfreudey one...

done in the style of Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will" no less,

Really? That reference again? The one blatant satirical shoutout that every critic already harps on about, while missing all the others... It's like the password to get into the Critics' Club or something.
"Hey, Riefenstahl. Look, I get the reference. I'm one of you!!".
Next you'll be quoting the same stuff from Withnail And I as everyone else who wants to be part of the fashionable crowd...

Because just right after the first public service announcement, we get a brief clip of Rico's first landing on Klendathu with a Net Correspondent

Yes, that's the shocking opener.
If you're laughing at that, there likely is something wrong with you.

What about the scenes where during combat training a guy gets his arm broken, Ace's hand is used for target practice

Drill instructors harrass and humiliate recruits. This is just taking it to a more extreme level, which is satire.
The arm-breaking is also *directly* from the book, which I'm sure you've read and so clearly realise this.
But both these incidents serve to reinforce a quote (also in the book) from Jean Rasczak - "Violence has resolved more conflicts than anything else”.
That is what this society is teaching and these scenes reinforce that concept. It's not a joke, though. You're not meant to like it.

and another character gets his own brains blown out with a live round, resulting in Rico's public flogging?

Tragedy as a plot vehicle, harsh nature of society, reality hitting home, recruits being inured to such things... Plus, you remember Rico's father saying earlier that he'd rather take ten lashes in Public Square than see his son join the military? Guess what his son is now getting, after joining the military. Nice bit of irony thrown in for you.

Those weren't played for laughs? There were so many other examples.

Nope.
YOU might think they're funny... but they are all done quite specifically for quite specific purposes.

So, my expecting a good movie, let alone a good satire was too much to ask?

Perhaps if you'd told the film makers in advance exactly what you wanted instead of just expecting them to precisely meet your very vague and highly subjective assumptions, you might have fared better.
Depends what you think is a 'good' film - Are you one of those Godfather types? Citizen Kane, Eraserhead, Plan 9, Jason And The Argonauts.... or what?
But thinking about it - Yes, meeting *your* expectations possibly is too much to ask. Actors and film makers generally prefer making the films how they want (it being their job, and all) rather than catering to whatever the budget-holding studio insists their marketing data says will sell...

As a satire, it is the most gutless, toothless example I've ever seen - it sought to horrify its audience with fascism's mindlessness, yet at the same time wanted said-audience to fist-pump in the air and revel in said-mindlessness for entertainment's sake.

Which they do, which is the whole point... If you cannot see that whole concept is the biggest satirical statement going, it's probably a good thing you're not a professional critic. The audience is not so much in on the joke as they *are* the joke... at least either in part or part of.

It is and it isn't. They're both related to humor, and indeed parody is a tool used within satire, but the two are not the same.

I didn't say they were the same... I said they are not separate. Parody, for the most part, is satire, mainly because (intentionally or otherwise) it does criticize what it imitates.

With that said, though, his work all points to him being a person in love with sex and violence on a hugely uncomfortable level.

And the vast number of people who pay to see more of this stuff... what does that say about them, do you think?
All the fans of Robocop, Total Recal, SST, even Showgirls... They are successful films and a lot of people like them. Does the general populace of the world also make you hugely uncomfortable?
Sex sells. Violence sells.
TBH, I'd be more worried about the sort of people who make films like The Human Centipede and the fact that enough people watched it (morbidly curious or not) to spur TWO sequels!

Might be worth pointing out that none of those screenplays were actually written by Verhoeven, either...

In all of the movies that I've seen of his, there's a grotesque tendency on his part to focus lovingly on those particular aspects.

Given how they seem to be either apposite to the critique, or the very thing being critiqued, of course the subjects will be explored in detail. Care and attention will be given to present them quite specifically. Doesn't mean

Yeah....but Verhoeven is the most blaringly obvious of the bunch, and one of Hollywood's worst offenders in that regard.

Then why do I not find any of Verhoeven's films on the numerous Most Violent/Gory/Grotesque Films lists, either by individuals or various media?
As for the sex... His stuff is so tame, it's barely there. A couple of girls get their tits out for a very short period. Sharon Stone partly exposes her bush for like, an eighth of a second. OMG, he's such a porn peddler... FFS, there's more T&A in Striptease/Disclosure than SST... and perhaps even Showgirls.

Or do you just object to seeing Johnny Rico's ass? 

The way he lingered on the sadism of Alex Murphy's torture and execution,

What, like Christians harp on about Jesus?
Robocop conveyed the message, rather than the torture and violence utterly burying it as with Passion Of The Christ.
It was also quick, rather than being a long, drawn-out affair where the hero suffers more and more damage throughout the movie, as with Die Hard.

the callous disregard he has for every single one of his characters in his films as he forces whatever horribly violent and/or humiliating fate upon them is akin to watching a child who likes cutting the heads off dolls.

And yet it resonates with so many people, which is the commentary being made.

No, not every film has to be an "in-depth character study", but that shouldn't excuse him from letting his libido take control over every single thing he does with bludgeoning abandon whenever he felt like it.

Again, it's not HIS libido being catered to, here...
How many people do you think watched Basic Instinct and wore out their VHS cassettes for the sole reason of quickly glimpsing Sharon Stone's pussy, hmmm?
Sex sells. Violence sells. People *want* this *beep* and directors like Verhoeven are meeting the demand.

That would require watching the movie again, and quite frankly, watching it once was once too many.

So despite being shown some of the stuff you've missed and where to look to see all the rest, you're not even going to give it that chance?
That says it all.

Is it possible that current social climes have made this movie more relevant, with the disillusioned finding something they recognize?

Society and politics have become far more blatant and shameless in their natures so perhaps now they don't bother hiding it, people have learned to see past the in-your-face jokey fascist propaganda to now pick up on what was really going on, as reflected in this film.
Beyond that, the climes were not so different.

Is it possible the movie truly is a diamond in the rough, and it is only under these circumstances that certain features have been made pellucid?

More likely people didn't get the joke, because they didn't want to.

Or are the people that are trying to find value in it, the disillusioned, just staring at shadows flickering on the wall, trying to find something that isn't there?

More likely people are shamed by how much they actually enjoyed it and are trying to find fault in it by claiming the absence of what is in fact quite abundant, not realising that by understanding that abundance they need not feel shamed for enjoying it, because they heard the message.




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The need for strategy and tactics seems to have fallen by the wayside somewhat, as evidenced by Ace's comment about just nuking the enemy.

That question actually comes out of the book. It is Verhoeven's answer, cartoon violence, that deserves the disdain.

In the book, Zim talks about how war is not just about killing, but "controlled and purposeful violence", and touches on von Clausewitz's "politics by other means".

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Actually it is Zim's answer ("the enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand") to Ace's question, which is controlled and purposeful violence, I suppose.

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But Verhoeven's reply was to throw a knife through the kid's hand.

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They fixed it up afterward... 

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I actually had wanted to reply to this statement earlier:

"There was a time when moving tactically, hiding, skirmishing and the like was considered cowardly and very UN-soldierlike... thankfully we've moved on from the Napoleonics and walking in a gentlemanly fashion across No Mans' Land, but still - Who knows what the soldiers of the future are supposed to be?"

Yeah, there had been a time....but this is an adaptation of "Starship Troopers", the novel that depicted soldiering in a strikingly realistic fashion and laid the foundation for countless sci-fi stories that involved the military. However, as you had mentioned, Verhoeven only bought the rights to the novel for fear of copyright, which is kind of stupid. I mean, if he really had wanted to do a movie that was the antithesis to what Heinlein was doing with his book, he could have given it any other title. There are movies that have the same basic storyline but different treatments - "Shane" vs "The Pale Rider", "High Noon" vs "High Plains Drifter", etc.


"Again, if you're laughing at those, you're the schadenfreudey one..."

I hadn't been laughing while watching. Some of my classmates, on the other hand, were.


"The audience is not so much in on the joke as they *are* the joke... at least either in part or part of."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Verhoeven. It suggests the guy has contempt for his audience, if not for people in general, which could somewhat explain his penchant for displaying sadomasochism on film.


"And the vast number of people who pay to see more of this stuff... what does that say about them, do you think?
All the fans of Robocop, Total Recal, SST, even Showgirls... They are successful films and a lot of people like them. Does the general populace of the world also make you hugely uncomfortable?"

To a certain extent I agree with you. However, with regards to "Robocop", "Total Recall" and "Starship Troopers", I think it has less to do with sex and violence being the key elements of success as it's certain other features, mainly they're being sci-fi with fascinating ideas and cool special effects, among other things (including marketing, with comic books, various toy lines and a cartoon series done for "Robocop").


"TBH, I'd be more worried about the sort of people who make films like The Human Centipede and the fact that enough people watched it (morbidly curious or not) to spur TWO sequels!"


On this I agree with you - I have no use for torture porn. I loved the first "Saw" movie, though, and kind of feel it unfair that it was labelled as such; it was more a mystery/thriller with some horror elements. "Torture porn" implies something really distasteful, like it's a snuff film or something when that's not the case with the first "Saw" movie.


"Might be worth pointing out that none of those screenplays were actually written by Verhoeven, either..."

True. However, directors are known to alter scripts during shooting, if not alter said-scripts to suit their tastes.


"Then why do I not find any of Verhoeven's films on the numerous Most Violent/Gory/Grotesque Films lists, either by individuals or various media?"

More than likely because people have become largely desensitized nowadays. That, and the market's been flooded with even more gore crap.


"Robocop conveyed the message, rather than the torture and violence utterly burying it as with Passion Of The Christ."

"Passion" was just awful. F$ck that movie.


"And yet it resonates with so many people, which is the commentary being made."

Not for me. Seeing that puts me off and makes me less inclined to watch his movies. In terms of commentary being made, I doubt that was his intention for every single movie he did. It just seemed more like he wanted to do it because he could for offal and sex sake alone.


"Sex sells. Violence sells. People *want* this *beep* and directors like Verhoeven are meeting the demand."

And he's enjoying himself as he's doing it. In terms of "sex sells and violence sells", there's no evidence that either are true.


"So despite being shown some of the stuff you've missed and where to look to see all the rest, you're not even going to give it that chance?
That says it all."

Maybe one of these days I'll give it another look, but more than likely I'll not, just because of the distaste I have for Verhoeven.

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Yeah, there had been a time....but this is an adaptation of "Starship Troopers",

It's a similar basic plot, with elements from the novel added in. It's not even close enough to be an actual adaptation. Saying it's even based on is stretching it...

the novel that depicted soldiering in a strikingly realistic fashion and laid the foundation for countless sci-fi stories that involved the military.

Speaking as a former soldier myself, that novel is definitely not realistic!! It does reflect some of the thinking toward the military from around the 1950s, but that's as far as it goes.

However, as you had mentioned, Verhoeven only bought the rights to the novel for fear of copyright, which is kind of stupid.

That's how things are done in the business...

I mean, if he really had wanted to do a movie that was the antithesis to what Heinlein was doing with his book, he could have given it any other title.

He hadn't even read the novel at that point of buying the rights.

I hadn't been laughing while watching. Some of my classmates, on the other hand, were.

They are dicks.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Verhoeven. It suggests the guy has contempt for his audience, if not for people in general, which could somewhat explain his penchant for displaying sadomasochism on film.

It doesn't suggest that at all!
Do you not realise that people are quite capable of laughing at themselves? Do you not think that people might see this and be given cause to think about things?
The aim was to create a thought-provoking experience. As is, the critics at least failed to look past the joke and wonder why, with many an Ebert-wannabe following suit. In part, that's what the message is all about and what it's trying to highlight. If you don't like being shown that you are a bloodthirsty American who actually enjoys these nasty violent films, then again the message has been heard.

To a certain extent I agree with you. However, with regards to "Robocop", "Total Recall" and "Starship Troopers", I think it has less to do with sex and violence being the key elements of success as it's certain other features,

mainly they're being sci-fi with fascinating ideas and cool special effects,

Sci-Fi was not really a popular mainstream thing back then. Most highly acclaimed sci-fi achieved popularity through cult status and subsequent video release. If what you're saying is true, Blade Runner should have won Oscars at the time!
Nope - Sex, violence, Schwarzenegger. Those are what sold. They are all as much action films as sci-fi.

including marketing, with comic books, various toy lines and a cartoon series done for "Robocop"

Nothing to do with Verhoeven and his production crew, as well as being somewhat later than the film.

True. However, directors are known to alter scripts during shooting, if not alter said-scripts to suit their tastes.

It was also written by the same guy who wrote several other Verhoeven-directed films. I doubt there'd be that much alteration, else they'd not continue working together.

More than likely because people have become largely desensitized nowadays. That, and the market's been flooded with even more gore crap.

With half the films dating from before SST?
Again, plenty of earlier films just as gory, if not more so.

Not for me. Seeing that puts me off and makes me less inclined to watch his movies.

That's just your personal taste, then. Same as what many people say about Martin Scorsese films.

In terms of commentary being made, I doubt that was his intention for every single movie he did. It just seemed more like he wanted to do it because he could for offal and sex sake alone.

From what I've seen, that actually is the case. Looks like he's had to tone down the 'message' thing once he moved into more mainstream Hollywood films though, as the US audiences just didn't get it.

And he's enjoying himself as he's doing it. In terms of "sex sells and violence sells", there's no evidence that either are true.

There is plenty of evidence.
Most popular shows these days have ultra-heavy doses of both. Audiences actually complained about Vikings, because it doesn't have the same amount of blood and sex as Spartacus or Game Of Thrones.

Maybe one of these days I'll give it another look, but more than likely I'll not, just because of the distaste I have for Verhoeven.

If you just don't like it, then fine, whatever. Your call.
But if you can't be bothered to look past the surface and see what's actually being shown, then the joke is on you.


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If you were criticising it as satire, you'd have a point.

You are not, and thus you don't.

"They are just a flock of to fish for fame its person"

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It's just a boring, pointless, mess. 
Yes THE SATIRE, if you insist on calling it that, is boring and pointless. 
The first half is a snoozer soap opera (saved only by the shower scene). The second half is an extended exercise in stupidity. You have advanced technology enough to fly across the galaxy to another planet, to fight some fierce vicious aliens, but you're just going to use soft bodies on the ground and ancient technology machine guns with... lead bullets? Really? Why not just bring some drones that fly with giant cans of futuristic bug spray? 
The special effects bugs were nicely done. That's about all this movie is good for.

You are taking the movie too seriously. It is a satire. The whole movie is a joke. It is not supposed to make sense. You are over-thinking it. It is supposed to be stupid. That is why it is funny. Because it is stupid. That is why it is clever. Because it is making fun of itself.

It has good special effects, good action, good acting, good looking cast, sex, love . . . What else do you need? The actors are performing tongue-in-cheek because they know the whole movie is a stupid joke.

Some movies are supposed to be serious. This movie was not supposed to be. Some movies are supposed to be straight up comedies. This movie was not supposed to be. Some movies are supposed to be tragedies --- serious, dramatic, sad, heavy, etc. This movie was not supposed to be. Some movies are supposed to be logically sensible. This movie was not supposed to be.

It is a satire. It is supposed to be stupid, silly, illogical, light entertainment. You are looking at it wrong and expecting the wrong things.


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The first half is socio-political commentary, made far more interesting by parodying the source material, then the rest is action.
If you'd get off your high horse of believing you're too intellectual for some honest 90s fun, it isn't the type of movie you should be watching.

You question why wars would be fought in foreign land with primitive technology when current wars are still fought that way, yet another piece of the puzzle that went right over your head because you're busy pretending to be smart.

--

"If I wasn't paying attention, that's a plot-hole"
"If I didn't like it, that's a plot-hole"

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i dont think its a matter of intellectual level,
it's more a matter of humour.

Are you able to have fun with a B-Movie?
Are you able to have fun with Satire?

i am sure a lot of people think that what is shown on the screen is meant serious,
but all this soap opera-stuff, the bad lines and actors, all this is done by purpose
and if you are able to have fun with B-Movies you will get that.

and like some other B-Movies, this one is also subversive.

i can understand that a lot of people think this one is a bad movie,
cause in my experience a lot of people also have problems to understand ironic jokes. it looks like a serious movie but it isnt. thinking of how illogical this world is, is already a mistake. cause it isnt meant to be that serious to think in THAT way about it

you get it - or you dont get it!

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if you think soap opera is super silly, you are right!
but the film has the same opinion,
though it is attacking with the same weapons.

if you think patriotic films are stupid,
the film also have the same opinion,
though some military heads dont see that,
cause they really think similar to that what the film is critizising.

its a political left-wing-film in right-wing-camouflage.

its just fun to see a movie which is clever in pretending to be silly.

a matter of humour.
or a matter of dont having one.

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