plot question
Ok, so I'm a little confused. The epileptic did end up killing the ho after all? Or what?? Then why was the cop with the cheating wife freaking out during the lie detector and having flashbacks of smothering someone...
shareFirst of all, Kennesaw didn't have flashbacks of killing somebody else. He can't say yes and he can't say no on the question whether or not he killed his wife. That is because he is mind trapped by James and totally confused.
That's how I understood the movie:
James did kill Elizabeth. Being a filthy rich and knowing little "dirty" secrets of the same cops who had interrogating him allowed him to set both of them up: Braxton with gambling debt (his bookie appeared as a funeral home manager, and one of Mook's assistant as a paramedic; I believe both were fake) and Kennesaw with his habbit of visiting hookers.
It was never told if the murder was commited before or after Braxton's gambling failure. I think murder came down first. James is a genius. IMO, he even faked his own epilepcy (has anybody noticed that his pills taken from the watercooler are black?). He might be an alcoholic but he knows exactly what he is doing. I guess, he drinks that liquor to make his epilepcy more real.
If, in the beginning I was amazed by the fact how he fired personal info of both detectives straight in their faces (perfect psychoanalysis, I said), then in the end it is obvious that he knew it all beforehand and may be paid off to get this information. Then the only thing he needed to do was to act, and he did it brilliantly.
Those are merely my speculations about what the hell really happened but I think I am very close to the truth.
I myself am a tad confused with the who killed who question, but I wanted to state what I know.
"IMO, he even faked his own epilepcy (has anybody noticed that his pills taken from the watercooler are black?)."
The bottle taken from the watercooler were the drugs Mook gave him. She warned they might put him in a coma and he commented that was what he wanted. So...I think he faked his death. He took the Mook-drugs and slipped into a coma, was taken away by the Mook-paramedic and the Mook-priest handled his father at the funeral home. I think he wanted to break free from his rich boy life and start over.
But seriously, who killed who?!
You got it there fiftycenter. It's obvious in the end who killed who. You see Kennesaw with his wife, in bed, and you see Wayland in the same park talking to a hooker. Wayland killed Elizabeth.
Edit: Oh, and Renee is freaking BOMB in this movie. Soooo hot.
Kennesaw killed Elizabeth but because of his 'problems' he thought that Elizabeth was his wife. So when Wayland asked Kennesaw if he'd killed Elizabeth, Kennesaw could answer with a clear conscience that 'No' he hadn't. However, when Kennesaw was asked whether he killed his wife, the lie-detector was off the scales. Kennesaw had some serious mental issues and at the time he killed Elizabeth, he thought he was killing his wife. Wayland found Elizabeth just after the murder and was afraid of being accused, so he did what no one could possibly think him capable of - he cut her into little peices and hoped that everyone would just think it was too shocking a crime for Wayland to have committed. However, Kennesaw KNEW that he'd killed Elizabeth, but he also knew HE was not the one that cut her into tiny little pieces. Wayland had something on Kennesaw - Kennesaw had something on Wayland. This is where Wayland put his back up back-up plan into effect; fake your own death and get off scott-free. Braxton knew Kennesaw was guilty but he was somewhat grudgingly loyal (he had looked up to Kennesaw and Kennesaw had bailed him out BIG time with the whole Bookie thing) So he asked to be transfered and never told a soul what went on in that room, knowing that Kennesaw had commited the murder.
That was my take on the movie, at least :)
Well I have a question.. theres a part where it shows i believe, wayland, but not sure, to be having sex with Elizabeth....is she dead in that scene? b/c she's just kind of laying there with her eyes closed, she looks dead...can anyone explain that?
"you're right, and when you right...your right, and YOU, You're always right!"
James has killed Elizabeth. What would be the point, otherwise, of faking his own death, if not to escape justice? And what would be the point of that last scene where he meets another hooker in a park, at night, if not to show he's at it again ?
sharealright i totally agree with Aromidara here. It obviously points at james being back at it again. its the exsact same set-up so that's what a story teller would be doing. its like a que that this serese of events take place here because they have already. its a common device. like, and maybe this is a bad example but its the first that came to mind, in goldlox and the three bears how the serise of events is in the same order with the three bears as it was with her, and the how things were ordered consistantly in one extream then the other and then just right. i really didnt mean to be condicending with that, like i said first one that came to mind. but also i think points were vauge, with nothing deffinit at lest if your going for the writers perspective, and not real worlding it. in which case i could care less.
shareKennesaw murdered Elizabeth. James faked his own death to avoid being killed by Kennesaw in his rage, and to escape a wrongful prosecution and conviction. Recall Kennesaw smothering his wife with the pillow? That's what he wanted to do, but he substituted Elizabeth.
He was out looking for another friend. He preferred hookers. Recall he said he liked Elizabeth, he liked to hear her talk, he liked her stories. He was out late looking for another woman to connect to, not to kill.
I agree. I just finished watching the movie and everything you said makes sense. Good analysis!
shareWayland wanted both of them to think that Kenneshaw killed Elizabeth because it would fit the crap he was feeding them all along. The seizures were fake, the "talking" connection with Elizabeth was fake, and finally his death was fake. Kenneshaw couldn't say if he'd really killed anyone because he was a messed up headcase, being played upon by a vicious, cunning, psychopathic killer (not to mention rich rich rich).
About Wayland: From the way he speaks to Elizabeth (as told by the killer himself), even when trying to convince the cops that he had a "connection" with the hooker, he couldn't contain the anger or venom in his voice (note the scene where he's talking to her through the phone behind the glass window).
Basically the last scene in the film shows the exact manner in which he met (and ultimately killed) Elizabeth. It was another call-girl, and you can tell by the look on his face he has murderous intentions.
Remember, the title of the movie is Deceiver. Don't fall for the clever dialogue of the main character... he's built to deceive.
I sure am glad I read this thread. Everyone is confused as I am, or should be. You really can't tell from the movie what happened.
Pro:
James-- He admits cutting the girl up to avoid suspicion; this is far too excessive for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, unless he actually killed the girl. He's a rich guy, just happening to be there would not be something he couldn't get resolved legally, if he is simply innocent. Also, he fakes his own death, again excessive. The most convincing piece of evidence (as a cinematic method) is that at the end of the movie he is seen picking up a prostitute in the park, presumably to kill again.
Kenneson--Remebers smothering his wife, we presume he is remembering actually smothering the prostitute
Con (ambiguities)--
James--The evidence that Kenneson did it (isn't this the only reason we think he didn't do it).
Kenneson--When remembering killing his wife/prostitute he may, in actuallity, be hallucinating: remembering something he previously imagined, acted out in fantasy with the prostitute, or was simply imagining it at that moment. EVERYTHING on the tape (including the assault) could easily have been what the prostitute was paid to do, and so could the "smothering" that he was remebering. Moreover, he may simply be using a technique to confuse himself and beat the lie detector, as he vaguely discusses with James at some part of the movie. In some unknown way, James confounds this strategy --at first Kenneson is afraid to say or do anything as this will spring the trap. The line in the movie from James was something like "Detective Kennison is confused about who his wife is right now." Finally, in response to being asked about killing his wife, the trap is sprung, and the lie detector goes crazy.
In a previous thread there was some discussion about the black pills allowing him to fake the epilepsy. The black pills aren't the same pills he was taking in the bathroom during the first session. He didn't get the black pills until after the first session, I'm not sure what the poster's point was with this, or how this implies guilt or innocence, but thought I'd bring it up in case it is meaningful to someone. He gets the investigators from Mook between the first and second sessions, we only see him pay for the information, not request it.
In sum: The intent was for the viewer to believe that James did it. The only information to the contrary is that Kennison "remembers" killing his wife, which isn't even the person who was killed. We have no idea what is going on in his head.
Does Wayland's father believes he's dead? This cuts off his income. I don't dispute this went as you've explained, (I'd add to this the suspicion toward Kennesaw that Wayland put in Braxton's mind,{along with the big bucks, of course}, to get his cooperation), but forsaking the family fortune doesn't make sense.
shareIt was never about the money for him though. His words and actions throughout the film make it pretty clear he despises his current life. The constant expectations and judgement from his parents and everyone in high society. It also isn't like he would be going broke, he has an ivy league education, graduated at the top of his class and is extremely intelligent. If he had motivations in life I am sure he would do more than fine for himself. His issue is more his life is one where he has no wants, everything is provided but he also has no desires.
As to who killed the girl, well the problem you run into is everything is told thru the eyes of the unreliable narrator. There are arguments for both sides but I have to think that not only is it Kennesaw but Wayland wanted to be a suspect so he could interrogate his suspect. Regardless of who you think killed Elizabeth the uncharacteristic piece of evidence is the phone number in the pocket. We are talking about cutting a woman in half, and then cleaning every last trace of physical evidence he was ever at her place but not getting a piece of paper with his number on it. No fingerprints, no hair, no skin or bodily fluids but to miss something like that seems deliberate. He knew that Kennesaw had violent sexual tendencies and would want to direct the investigation away from himself.
I think it really comes down to how good of a liar and how delusional you think Wayland was (and to a lesser extent Kennesaw). I believed him at the end when he said he cared about her and the psychotic response he got out of Kennesaw seemed like a man panicking as he is grasping for ways to get out of his situation.
Just for people who think Wayland did it, do you think he planned it (which is what the final scene implies) or was it an accident during an epileptic attack? (I think he did have epileptic attacks but I think he faked them in interrogations, the flashback of him with the girl when he was younger i dont think he just dreamed up)
P.S. I think a better ending would have been after the 1 year later caption to have Kennesaw finally smothering his wife.
>>>>Kennesaw killed Elizabeth but because of his 'problems' he thought that Elizabeth was his wife. So when Wayland asked Kennesaw if he'd killed Elizabeth, Kennesaw could answer with a clear conscience that 'No' he hadn't. However, when Kennesaw was asked whether he killed his wife, the lie-detector was off the scales. Kennesaw had some serious mental issues and at the time he killed Elizabeth, he thought he was killing his wife.<<<<
Precisely!!
In the realm of psychiatry, it's known as "transference."
I think the second poster is more or less right.
The point is that James so totally exagerated in killing the girl
and talking himself out that no-one would believe he did it after all.
First he lies about killing Elizabeth. He fakes having epilepsy, fakes being an alcoholic.
Then he admits he has cut the girl in half, saying to the cops
that if he only exaggerated enough, no-one would ever believe he did it.
Following this strategy (so he even gives his own strategy away!), he asks
some woman(didn't get who exactly that was) for pills, these would erase his memory
(that's what the woman said) but if he would take too much he'd probabely slip into a coma.
These are two usefull effects for him: His recent memory is gone (so he probabely doesn't
know about the murder anymore) AND
He can fake his own death and run off unpunished.
by manipulating the cops all the time with bought off information about their bad habits
(one of the hookers even taped one of the cops being in a rage
with the VERY SAME hooker that is murdered now), they are both totally confused
and suspicion falls on kennesaw. when James asks kennesaw(while he's on the lie detector)
wether he killed the girl, he's playing a psychological game
with the both of them, playing out his knowledge about kennesaw's 'wife problem'.
kennesaw is nervous because he knew the girl and because he held
that info behind. But because of the tape his buddy is convinced kennesaw did it.
On top of this all James fakes to have this attack,
leaving the two cops behind totally disordered. James knows the funeral manager so getting away
there isn't a problem probabely. all in all that's my take on it, I might have
forgotten some things but thats majorly it I think
I have a little question myself:
At the end kennesaw takes the James' pills and puts them in his pocket unseen.
Why does he do that? James is 'dead' and he could easily blame the pills, no?
I don't get it :o) hopefully not a hole in my theory above :p
"I haven't got time for this mickey-mouse bullsh*t!!" Norman Stansfield
What is epilepsy?
shareJames does not just suffer from epilepsy, but from a rather unique form of epilepsy, frontal lobe epilepsy (FLE). now there are many variations of this form of epilepsy, and the filmmakers did a good job of somewhat combining a few of them together. is he faking it? no. FLE usually becomes prevalent in males at about 27.5 years of life.
as for him taking the clonazepame which makes the polygraph read flat... the directors, i believe, took some artist license or just covered their asses. clonazepam IS prescribed for people with FLE, but the results of the drug are not as indicated by the movie. there are some older anticonvulsant drugs that reportedly had a similar effect as James experiences, but as i said, the filmmakers may have changed it (like how they changed how to make napalm in fight club).
as for the did he kill Elizabeth? no. it's stated, by him, pretty early on that he didn't, and he did show remorse, she was the only person in the world he connected to.
from what i got out of it, is that James knew they would find the connection between himself and Elizabeth, and that it was a high profile case that "the mayor wanted someone behind bars for". he was from a family of money and influence; i media would have a field day. so before going in to be interrogated he rigged the deck. he had information on the two police conducting the interview and was able to play them off of each other.
the ending was just that. James died, albeit in a metaphoric way. he got out of rich-boy life and left his abusive (mentally) and absent (mentally) mother and father to start a new life.
the pro in the park at the end? just a nod to the beginning and a twist to make you post questions like these in this thread.
At first I thought that the whole plot of the movie revolved around lying, and that the less than clear-cut ending was meant to show that. Was Kennesaw the killer? Was James? It is left in doubt intentionally I originally thought. But then, at the very end of the movie when the director juxtaposes the two images of Kennesaw with his wife (who he hates and would like to kill) and James with the hooker (who he will undoubtably kill, knowing that his fake death clears the way for him to commit multiple murders without suspicion) I decided it was to show that they are both liars and evil. Otherwise, if you take the ending at face value (Kennesaw roughed up and maybe raped Elizabeth but left her alive, and James killed her) then you miss the point of the movie: deception. When James confesses at the end that is the truth: he DIDN'T kill her, but he did cut up the body. Kennesaw killed her. But James is certainly capable of murder when under the influence of his epilepsy and absinthe.
As for him faking the epilepsy, no, he truly had it as it was established many times in the flashbacks, and no doubt was ever placed in the viewers mind as to the truth of his condition.
Not a great movie, but I did enjoy it on television today and would recommend it as a rental if you like Tim Roth... or if you think Renee Zellwegger is the BOMB. ; )
the epilepsy in the flashbacks is deception on the part of the filmmaker. giving the audience a chance to play along.
'As for him faking the epilepsy, no, he truly had it as it was established many times in the flashbacks, and no doubt was ever placed in the viewers mind as to the truth of his condition.'
wrong, and here's why. the dead give away is when James imagines killing his mother, during a siezure. the point of that scene was to show that that siezure didn't happen and the rest are set ups. notice that James does EXACTLY what the man says, epilectic seizure victims do. that man is presumably a rich man that runs in James' crowd and fed information to the cops.
and above in another post someone mentioned that kenneshaw took the vile of black pills at the end. but in actuality it is one of the men that is part of the group of people that are in on the gig, taking James away. they have cleaned up everything perfectly. so that james can do this again sometime...
he beats the system by being smarter. he even got away with choosing the ace of spades.
"The inherent nature of the imdb poster is hate."
Ok...a bit late but...Kennesaw did not take James' pills off the cooler at the end...the fake EMT guy did. Kennesaw took the video tape though.
"Ain't life grand?"
keliezimmer,
thanks so much for posting your thoughts on the movie. It's more or less verbatim to what I was thinking and agree completely.
The only grey area I had, up until the ambulance and funeral home scene (where we recognise the paramedic and the funeral home director guy), was whether Waylands father had anything to do with the whole thing.
i.e. after the humiliating scenes at the party (where Wayland embarrasses his parents by his behaviour with Elizabeth) I thought he may have been motivated to kill Elizabeth, knowing his, ahem, wayward son might be put in the frame.
For me, the director left no room for doubt with those two scenes in particular. Especially the way the paramedic turned to camera and paused, so we could make the connection between him and the guy laughing in the scene where Wayland bought the black 'coma' pills.
As an addendum to your musings, I would add that Wayland simply had a fascination for sleaze and knew the dangers associated with it, hence his final line "that's the whole idea"(or words to that effect) - when the girl in the park warns that he could get into trouble being out late.
I also think it was more of a cerebral than physical fascination, which was illustrated very well in that scene where he talks to Elizabeth through the glass.
I would even go as far as suggesting that he might have financed the setup of the video cameras in Elizabeth's apartment...which is where the tape of Kennesaw originated. What I mean is Elizabeth, as a character, didn't come across as the sharpest tool in the shed, yet, Wayland appeared to have a particular interest in her. The cameras weren't there to setup Kennesaw, but, rather to feed Waylands fascination with human nature.
Great film. Great acting and great, understated direction.