MovieChat Forums > Donnie Brasco (1997) Discussion > Too absurd to be taken seriously

Too absurd to be taken seriously

posted 8 years ago by Little_Korean
13 replies | jump to latest

- Brasco/Pistone being so weak-minded that he not only starts relating to the violent, dangerous thugs he's forced to put up with but ends up joining them (only the timely arrival of the FBI prevents him from committing murder)?

- His FBI superiors being so stupid as to leave their prize agent out in the field with practically no backup or support besides the cursory (to the point that they have no idea what's going on with him by the time of the mob war).

- The three rival captains calling for Sonny Black and then allowing themselves to be ambushed so easily (IQ - what's that???).

- An FBI agent being considered a reliable post-operation source (presumably for trial testimony) despite not only going off the reservation but participating in numerous crimes, including accessory to murder.

- A Japanese waiter stupid enough to hold the line against a gang of obviously mobbed up men.

When darkness overcomes the heart, Lil' Slugger appears...

[–] mikeyg24 8 years ago

Learn to read, buy a book and then the dramatics of the big screen will assuage your annoyance and by extension our patience!

We have to show the world that not all of us are like him: Henning von Tresckow.

[–] Little_Korean 8 years ago

Sorry, no sell, the book is so different from the film...

- Pistone was never once tempted to go off the reservation with his Mafia buddies (who he didn't even like).

- His FBI colleagues and superiors gave him as much help as they could, and he consulted with them at every step on the way.

- The Japanese waiter scene never happened nor would Pistone have been stupid to let it get that far in the first place).

...that it's meaningless to try and use one to argue the other. The only thing they have in common is the title, character names and basic setting.

If anything, the book - by a professional and on what really happened - only underlines how stupid and contrived its cinematic adaption was.

When darkness overcomes the heart, Lil' Slugger appears...

[–] mikeyg24 8 years ago

I wasn't selling anything!

We have to show the world that not all of us are like him: Henning von Tresckow.

[–] Little_Korean 8 years ago

It's just an expression.

When darkness overcomes the heart, Lil' Slugger appears...

[–] anblq10 8 years ago

"Brasco/Pistone being so weak-minded that he not only starts relating to the violent, dangerous thugs he's forced to put up with but ends up joining them (only the timely arrival of the FBI prevents him from committing murder)?"

So I guess something like stockholm syndrome is all made up nonsense then? Basically, if you're around someone or a certain type of people, regardless of your own morals/beliefs, you can start to turn into them. That's what the movie was showing and that's also why audiences will sometimes related with the "bad guy" characters and root for them to get away over the law enforcement officials.

[–] Little_Korean 8 years ago

So I guess something like stockholm syndrome is all made up nonsense then? Basically, if you're around someone or a certain type of people, regardless of your own morals/beliefs, you can start to turn into them. That's what the movie was showing and that's also why audiences will sometimes related with the "bad guy" characters and root for them to get away over the law enforcement officials.

Stockholm Syndrome is for people who've been kidnapped, imprisoned or otherwise held against their will, and are thus not in control of a frightening situation:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22447726

"First people would experience something terrifying that just comes at them out of the blue. They are certain they are going to die.

"Then they experience a type of infantilisation - where, like a child, they are unable to eat, speak or go to the toilet without permission."

Small acts of kindness - such as being given food - prompts a "primitive gratitude for the gift of life," he explains.

"The hostages experience a powerful, primitive positive feeling towards their captor. They are in denial that this is the person who put them in that situation. In their mind, they think this is the person who is going to let them live."

Such irrational feelings are thus excusable and even understandable.

Pistone, on the other hand, is supposed to be a professional, who knows the kind of job he's getting into it and the sort of people he's associating with, and would presumably have been tested from a batch of applications to see if he had the mental fortitude to cope.

Instead, the Pistone here is prepared to go as far as commit murder for the sake of his new friends, even after witnessing (and clearly disgusted by) just how brutal they are.

When darkness overcomes the heart, Lil' Slugger appears...

[–] anblq10 8 years ago

The thing is, Pistone (in the movie) doesn't fire a shot or inflict any sort of physical violent acts upon the guy in the boat. He's there but you can't say for certain that he was actually going to kill the guy. Lefty confronts Pistone and Pistone has to play along otherwise Lefty is going to kill him. So, in essence, now Pistone is Lefty's captive.

[–] Little_Korean 8 years ago

The thing is, Pistone (in the movie) doesn't fire a shot or inflict any sort of physical violent acts upon the guy in the boat. He's there but you can't say for certain that he was actually going to kill the guy.

Pistone was directly poised to do *something* right before the FBI interrupted, and if not kill, then what?

And even if he had done nothing, what then? Let Lefty kill Bruno? Let Lefty kill him as well?

Naw, he was going to do it, he was just taking the time psych himself up and got a lucky break with the Feds.

Lefty confronts Pistone and Pistone has to play along otherwise Lefty is going to kill him. So, in essence, now Pistone is Lefty's captive.

Lefty was as much in denial as Pistone, perhaps even more so.

He confronts 'Donnie' with the picture of the FBI-sting boat, clear evidence that his 'friend' is playing him and has been the whole time. And yet he still rambles on about how many times he's had Donnie over his house and lets Donnie persuade him that it's doesn't really matter about the boat.

Lefty even points his gun to his own head at least twice, clear opportunities for Pistone to make a move to disarm him, as he's sitting directly opposite him in the car, if he really wanted to.

And he doesn't - despite his alternatives being to kill someone or have Lefty kill him - because he didn't want to.

When darkness overcomes the heart, Lil' Slugger appears...

[–] anblq10 8 years ago

Pistone was directly poised to do *something* right before the FBI interrupted, and if not kill, then what?

And even if he had done nothing, what then? Let Lefty kill Bruno? Let Lefty kill him as well?

Naw, he was going to do it, he was just taking the time psych himself up and got a lucky break with the Feds.

And yet, since Pistone never does anything in the movie, you can't make the claim that he was going to kill him because Pistone never actually did anything. It's not like he fired the gun at the guy and completely missed. He just couldn't think of how to get out of the situation without killing Bruno, Lefty killing Bruno, Lefty killing them both, or Pistone having to arrest or maybe even kill Lefty.

Lefty was as much in denial as Pistone, perhaps even more so.

He confronts 'Donnie' with the picture of the FBI-sting boat, clear evidence that his 'friend' is playing him and has been the whole time. And yet he still rambles on about how many times he's had Donnie over his house and lets Donnie persuade him that it's doesn't really matter about the boat.

Lefty even points his gun to his own head at least twice, clear opportunities for Pistone to make a move to disarm him, as he's sitting directly opposite him in the car, if he really wanted to.

And he doesn't - despite his alternatives being to kill someone or have Lefty kill him - because he didn't want to.

Once Lefty figured it out, he had to be in denial. That's the only way he can go on. Because Lefty knows that if Donnie is in the FBI, that Lefty is screwed/dead. It's kind of like when someone commits a horrible crime and then the media starts interviewing that person's friends and family and all you hear is "wow, I never would have guessed that the person was capable of doing that". Sometimes even if all the evidence is pointing at someone, some people will refuse to believe it because they just don't want to because the truth hurts too much. That was Lefty in this situation. He loved Donnie like a brother and he realized that Donnie wasn't really Donnie and that ultimately, it put Lefty in a no-win situation.

[–] Little_Korean 8 years ago

And yet, since Pistone never does anything in the movie, you can't make the claim that he was going to kill him because Pistone never actually did anything. It's not like he fired the gun at the guy and completely missed. He just couldn't think of how to get out of the situation without killing Bruno, Lefty killing Bruno, Lefty killing them both, or Pistone having to arrest or maybe even kill Lefty.

While we indeed can't know for sure what would have happened had the Feds not stepped in, we can still extrapolate based on what we've already been given:

Donnie has already assisted his Mafia friends with disposing of murdered bodies, and even witnessed a murder (of Nicky) first-hand.

Instead of reporting all of this to his FBI superiors - the murder charges alone would be enough to put away a dangerous Mafia crew for life - Pistone does nothing. His superiors don't even know what's happening with him (they confess as much to Mrs Pistone).

Pistone willingly goes with Lefty to the docks where Bruno is hiding, despite knowing there can be only one reason for that, i.e. to murder Bruno.

And when the Feds do burst onto the scene, Pistone acts more p!ssed than relieved, even telling them: "F__ you, it's not over. I'm not coming out."

At that point, Pistone is pretty much resigned to going along with whatever his criminal peers want, even when he had a lifeline in the form of the FBI.

Far from trying to think of ways of how to get out of the situation, everyone we've been shown so far indicates that Pistone didn't want to get out at all.

Once Lefty figured it out, he had to be in denial. That's the only way he can go on. Because Lefty knows that if Donnie is in the FBI, that Lefty is screwed/dead. It's kind of like when someone commits a horrible crime and then the media starts interviewing that person's friends and family and all you hear is "wow, I never would have guessed that the person was capable of doing that". Sometimes even if all the evidence is pointing at someone, some people will refuse to believe it because they just don't want to because the truth hurts too much. That was Lefty in this situation. He loved Donnie like a brother and he realized that Donnie wasn't really Donnie and that ultimately, it put Lefty in a no-win situation.

Well, sure.

But my point was, Pistone was not Lefty's prisoner like you suggested, or at least not to the extent that he had no choice but to follow Lefty's lead or couldn't have disarmed him and called it quits.

He's persuaded Lefty that he and the FBI boat was just a coincidence. Lefty's pointing his gun at himself as much as at Pistone, even. Pistone had options, he just didn't take them.

When darkness overcomes the heart, Lil' Slugger appears...

[–] anblq10 8 years ago

The problem was contacting his superiors could be too risky or Pistone doesn't like what his superiors are telling him how it needs to be wrapped up/ended and Pistone thinks that there is more work to be completed.

Pistone is not actually Lefty's prisoner (Lefty doesn't have him tied up or handcuffed or anything) but in a way he is Lefty's prisoner because if he doesn't follow Lefty's order, then in theory Lefty could kill him at any moment. Also, I'm not so sure Pistone actually persuaded Lefty with just words. Lefty is only going to be persuaded by actions and physical proof. So, in Lefty's mind, if Pistone/Donnie goes and murders someone, then he can't possibly be a cop because a cop wouldn't do something like that.

Ultimately, Pistone even tells his wife that he's not becoming them because he already is them. So, that also shows Pistone's mindset towards the end of the movie.

[–] Little_Korean 8 years ago

The problem was contacting his superiors could be too risky

It's not like Lefty and co. were with Pistone 24/7, he had plenty of opportunities to bail. But if he wasn't going to do so after that being forced to clean up four bodies in a cellar or ordered to assist in a murder contract, then he never was.

Pistone doesn't like what his superiors are telling him how it needs to be wrapped up/ended and Pistone thinks that there is more work to be completed.

Which shows what an idiot he is - he's already compromised himself by assisting in the bodies' clean-up (which, okay, can be argued as a case of having no choice in the matter) and then failing to report that along with the following murder of Nicky (much less defensible).

Contrary to movies, undercover agents are not given carte blanche to commit crimes, not even to fit in (the real 'Donnie Brasco' posed a jewel thief, and thus a non-violent criminal, and one who worked alone, hence he didn't have to bring any of his buddies along for his make-believe crimes).

By this stage, there is no way an agent with such a tarnished record would be of any use on the witness stand, or possibly even avoid jail time.

Pistone is not actually Lefty's prisoner (Lefty doesn't have him tied up or handcuffed or anything) but in a way he is Lefty's prisoner because if he doesn't follow Lefty's order, then in theory Lefty could kill him at any moment. Also, I'm not so sure Pistone actually persuaded Lefty with just words. Lefty is only going to be persuaded by actions and physical proof. So, in Lefty's mind, if Pistone/Donnie goes and murders someone, then he can't possibly be a cop because a cop wouldn't do something like that.

Again, he could - and should - have ran back to the Feds and called it quits *before* coming down to the docks with Lefty; once he did that, he has no possible way of avoid killing a man or becoming an accessory to murder without disarming/killing Lefty (since Pistone is armed, too), something which he is clearly unwilling to do (he can't even quit the scene after witnessing another man being shot in the head right in front of him).

It is implausible to think that Pistone would willingly go as far as he did and end up not committing the murder he agreed to do (particularly by the time Lefty has his gun as much trained on him as on Bruno, when Pistone really doesn't have a choice anymore).

Ultimately, Pistone even tells his wife that he's not becoming them because he already is them. So, that also shows Pistone's mindset towards the end of the movie.

Which shows he is totally deluded.

At the end of the day, he is *not* one of them. The Feds could expose his cover and force him to come back in, which they eventually did (no way would they suffer the embarrassment of one of their own becoming a gangster for real, the Bureau would be permanently tarnished).

When darkness overcomes the heart, Lil' Slugger appears...

[–] iz_Moff 8 years ago

Yeah. It's been a while since i read the book, but i think it took Pistone months to set up a backstory for himself, then months of hanging around at mob bars to even be able to go and say hello to some made guys. And even after he's been working with Lefty for a long time, and was considered for being made, he was never told anything about what was going on within a family. In the movie he only had to say some bs about diamonds, and five minutes later he already shakes someone down for Lefty and getting introduced to captains. Makes you wonder why FBI even needed an undercover agent to nail these dudes.