MovieChat Forums > Buffy the Vampire Slayer (1997) Discussion > AtS - Cordy Question

AtS - Cordy Question

posted 8 years ago by writergal88
15 replies | jump to latest

The Angel boards aren't as active as these so I'll pose my question here...

Spoilers for Seasons 3 and 4 of Angel..

When exactly did Cordy turn evil? And when did we last see the real Cordelia?

It isn't really made clear on the show.

Was the last time we saw the real Cordy in "Birthday"? -- when her vision knocks her out.
At the end of the episode when Skip agrees to make her part demon so she can sustain her visions better, is this when the evil started to possess her? Perhaps TPTB giving her a touch of demon power turned her evil? And if this is the case, why would they do this to her?

OR

Was it in the S3 finale when she became a higher being? Was the last we saw of Cordy just before she floated into the sky as a ball of white light? Perhaps after Skip offered to alleviate her to another plane and make her a higher power, she turned evil during that process. And therefore when she returned in S4, she was already evil Cordy. But again, if this is the case -- why? Why would Skip turn her evil?

What was the reason for The Powers or Skip or any other entity to turn Cordelia evil?

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

The last time we saw the real Cordy was in "The House Always Wins."

But again, if this is the case -- why? Why would Skip turn her evil?

What was the reason for The Powers or Skip or any other entity to turn Cordelia evil?

Jasmine. Jasmine is the answer to all the questions.

You are sin.

[–] magic-4000 8 years ago

It depends on your definition of the "real" Cordelia and what you mean by seeing her.

The last time we see the Cordelia we knew, physical body and all, is in "Tomorrow" at the end of season 3 just before she ascends.

However, she spends the first few episodes of season 4 as a higher being/floating head thing. So that is also the real Cordelia but she's not exactly human.

Then, she returns in "The House Always Wins" but with amnesia. Cordelia is in control, it is really her, albeit with no memory of who Cordelia is so I don't know if you technically consider it Cordy.

In "Spin the Bottle", Cordelia's memories are returned but she does not regain control of her body. It is this moment she "turns" evil because she is possessed by Jasmine. After this point, we never see the real Cordelia again except a comatose one.

As for the reason why? Cordelia herself never turned evil, she was possessed by the rogue PtB, Jasmine, who returned to earth when Cordelia did in "The House Always Wins". The amnesia was a safeguard to keep Jasmine dormant inside Cordy but Lorne's spell released her in "Spin the Bottle", allowing total control. All of it was done to return Jasmine to the mortal coil and provide a physical body.

Wesley, why can't I stay?

[–] Phillip Marlowe 8 years ago

It is arguable that we last see "real' Cordelia, in a way at least, in Awakening, when she is imagined by Angel in the fantasy triggered by the shaman to remove Angel's soul. Like all the characters in Angel's "Raiders of the Lost Ark" fantasy, she is somewhat idealized and, of course, imaginary. But she is based on Angel's memories of Cordelia and is not possessed by Jasmine.

[–] writergal88 8 years ago

Why was Coredlia used as the vessel to bring forth Jasmine though? Why did The Powers/Jasmine specifically choose her to do this?

So the amnesia was real? The show tried to make it seem like it was a ploy on Jasmine's part.

[–] Phillip Marlowe 8 years ago

Why was Coredlia used as the vessel to bring forth Jasmine though?

Because this is the incredibly clunky plot device that Whedon & Co. came up with after they learned Charisma Carpenter was pregnant and would not be able to shoot the intended scenes later in the season. Cordelia was only pregnant because Carpenter was in real life. I am not sure of the details, but I believe the original intent of the season was pretty similar, but without Jasmine; Cordelia herself would have essentially played the Jasmine role. I think she would still have been possessed in some way, but the possessor would not have been so concretely realized.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

Even if they'd have been able to go with the original plan, the question still stands: Why was Cordy chosen?

You are sin.

[–] Samson_Lee 8 years ago

Charisma was such a good sport - she returned to set for the season final to play a comatose Cordelia after having just given birth to her child a week before. Of course they couldn't rework scripts - I am guessing she gave birth earlier than the due date. But what a champ to still come to set post-pregnant to film material in a coma. Because it felt like Joss was so angry at her and he left her character in a coma. When naturally Cordelia could of woken up at the end of Peace Out and killed Jasmine.

Too bad they didn't get enough notice to plan ahead and film episodes out of order.

Which brings me to my next question - was Cordelia suppose to always die. What was the outcome if Charisma wasn't pregnant. Was Cordelia suppose to basically be truly killed or still wind up in a coma at season's end once Jasmine leaves her body for good and return in season 5.

So this means we never see Jasmine in her real form. She just keeps taking over Cordelia all season until she is killed or removed from Cordelia's body? Or was she ever going to just come out of Cordelia's body in the end.

It is too bad they didn't do more Hollywood magic and hide Charisma's pregnancy more and just had Jasmine leave Cordelia's body in Inside Out. When Jasmine knows Angel is going to kill the thing that has possessed Cordelia it just leaves her body and puts her in a coma. No need for this whole giving birth to itself. I guess they couldn't hide her pregnancy well enough - this is a show with stunts and fights. Impossible.

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] magic-4000 8 years ago

Why was Coredlia used as the vessel to bring forth Jasmine though? Why did The Powers/Jasmine specifically choose her to do this?

I can't recall if this is ever explicitly stated but I can think of a few reasons. Maybe it was all just part of the Tro-Clon and it was nothing more than fate but Cordelia was connected to the Powers. She was female, thus able to give "birth" to Jasmine. She was close to Angel and other champions which meant Jasmine would be protected while possessing Cordy and go by undetected.

The Powers That Be never chose Cordelia for any of this. It was all Jasmine who was considered a "rogue" Power. Why they didn't do more to stop Jasmine's plan is a whole different conversation.

So the amnesia was real? The show tried to make it seem like it was a ploy on Jasmine's part.

Yes. The one attempt the Powers seemed to make at containing Jasmine. The amnesia effect was a safeguard put in place when Cordelia returned to Earth to keep Jasmine from possessing/using her. Lorne's spell returned her memories and broke that safeguard, allowing Jasmine to take control.

Wesley, why can't I stay?

[–] fauxindigo 8 years ago

Yea she still seems like the real Cordy when she is in the higher dimension in the first few eps of angel season 4.

[–] Ironic_Tonic 8 years ago

Well technically the last time we see the real Cordelia is "You're Welcome."

But otherwise the last time we saw the real Cordelia is at the beginning of season 4, although she has no memories. When Lorne brings "Coredlia's" memories back, he actually awakens Jasmine instead.

[–] magic-4000 8 years ago

The real Cordelia was still in a coma in a hospital bed in "You're Welcome".

Wesley, why can't I stay?

[–] Ironic_Tonic 8 years ago

Yes, but the Cordelia we saw..whatever she was..was actually Cordelia as opposed to some entity masquerading as her.

[–] writergal88 8 years ago

So in terms of the sequence of events, it went something like:

The plan for Jasmine to take over Cordy started way back in Season 3's Birthday. Skip was in on the plan from the jump. He is the one that shows Cordy her alternate reality in the episode. However Cordy chooses to keep her painful visions instead of living a life of fortunate and fame. Skip agrees to this only if Cordy takes on a demon aspect to help her handle the visions better. It seems that turning Cordy part demon was the first stage in her possession process? But how?

After that, Cordy's entire ascension to become a higher being in the Season 3 finale was a ruse; a hoax orchestrated by the Powers in order to allow a demon (Jasmine) to enter Cordy's body. The Powers were also infiltrated by Jasmine by this point. They weren't TPTB that we grew to know and love in the first two seasons of Angel.

When Cordy returned to Earth from her ascension in Slouching Toward Bethlehem, she had amnesia (this was the powers attempt at shutting Jasmine out?) -- but Lorne's memory spell awakened Jasmine.

And at the end of the episode Spin the Bottle, after Lorne's spell, this is when Evil Cordy (i.e Cordy possessed by Jasmine) is first seen and/or released.

Jasmine's entire plan was for Cordy to give birth to her so she could be re-born and corporeal on Earth. Cordy uses Connor to do this (procreate). Once Cordy serves her purpose as essentially a fetus/shell for Jasmine, Cordy goes into a coma after Jasmine is born.

We don't see Cordy again Until Season 5's You're Welcome, but even then, she isn't really there. I was always under the impression that only Angel remembers the events that occurred in You're Welcome. That Cordy's presence in the episode was wiped from the other's memories and she was never really there given that the episode ends with her still in a coma and ultimately dying.

Therefore the last time we see the real Cordy is in Spin the Bottle (before the last 5 minutes).

So as far as Cordy's Season 3 to 4 journey, am I leaving out any important parts? Or is that the gist?