While my girlfriend (who knows about photography) and I were watching this movie on DVD, she noticed that the widescreen version kept chopping off the tops of people's heads throughout the movie, while the fullscreen side actually showed more of the picture, not even having an excess of headroom.
Are there some "widescreen" DVDs that take a already-modified fullscreen version of the film and add black bars to the top and bottom? I'm a widescreen advocate but this example really bolestered a good argument for fullscreen, if some widesreens are nothing more than a cropped-off fullscreen.
I know there's some movies that are shot fullscreen that the director later crops to widescreen, but this looks like something that was shot in widescreen, edited to pan-n-scan with the sides cropped off, and THEN cropped off the top and bottom of THAT already-mangled picture and called it widescreen.
Well, unfortunately, that's what widescreen can do sometimes. Depending on the aspect ratio, 2.40:1 or 1.88:1, the tops and bottoms of the picture will be cut off versus fullscreen format. 2.40:1 will cut off more, while 1.88:1 will cut off less. The tradeoff, of course, is a much wider picture, providing a grander scope of cinema. However, sometimes DVDs will have an artificial widescreen version, which isn't really widescreen, but a letterbox format within a 4:3 image. It's easy to tell which one you have.
First of all, do you have a widescreen TV? Because if you don't and you have a normal aspect ratio television, then there isn't anything wrong with watching movies in fullscreen. But I digress. The easiest way to tell is to set your DVD player to 16:9 format. You can do this in the DVD player's set-up menu, usually under a "Screen setup" submenu, or something similar. Some DVD players ask you what kind of TV you are using instead. Either way, set it to 16:9. When you play the movie on the widescren side it will fill up your TV from top to bottom (unless it is a 2.40:1 aspect ratio, in which case the black bars on top and bottom will simply be smaller than they were before) but at the same time the picture will look stretched vertically. If the image doesn't distort and it looks the same as before, then the disc doesn't have a true widescreen cut, and instead just has a 4:3 version with letterbox bars at the top and bottom. This is what will happen on a normal 4:3 television. If you have a widescreen television, then it's possible that you never had your DVD player set to 16:9, and that your TV's zoom funciton was cutting a little too much off the ends of the picture. In this case, keep your player set to 16:9, and from now on, watch all of your movie with your TV's wide-mode set to "Full".
______________________________________ "In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, come again" ~Snatch
- Some movies are shot using a photographic process called ANAMORPHIC widescreen. These give the best quality image.
- Some movies are shot using an alternative method called SUPER 35. This is the preferred choice of James Cameron if I remember correctly. Watch disc 2 of the Terminator 2 Ultimate edition dvd and it shows how the process works and how the Fullscreen and Widescreen versions differ. The 2.35:1 image is basically made by cropping the fullscreen image, BUT, the 2.35 image is the intended version!
- Last Man Standing was shot in a similar way and the video versions had more space at the top and bottom of the frame. The dvd you are talking about over-crops! I noticed it myself.
- Filmmakers like Tony Scott have always used 2.35:1 as the only version and the video fullscreen versions are panned and scanned. I prefer this choice.
Watch disc 2 of the Terminator 2 Ultimate edition dvd and it shows how the process works and how the Fullscreen and Widescreen versions differ.
:) I actually have one of the older pressings of T2: Ultimate Edition that had both discs pressed onto both sides of a single disc, but point taken.
- Last Man Standing was shot in a similar way and the video versions had more space at the top and bottom of the frame. The dvd you are talking about over-crops! I noticed it myself.
Thank you, I feel a little bit better now that someone else noticed this. By the way, my TV doesn't have a fullscreen/widescreen/4:3 option, but my DVD player does have those options. Turning the DVD to widescreen only stretches the image and slightly shrinks the black bars on top and bottom. Turning the DVD player to any other option turns it back to normal, but the image still looks over-cropped.
So what you're saying, is that Last Man Standing was shot 2:35, but the DVD was over-cropped to have it be at 2:35.1?
the video versions had more space at the top and bottom of the frame.
Video...are you talking about the VHS release? Because both VHS and DVD are considered "video," although I'm nit-picking.
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That is the technical specs for the movie. It says the cinematographic process used was Super 35. So this means that the widescreen image is just a cropped version of a full frame image with a tiny bit extra width on the left and right, but still the image that Walter Hill intended. The VHS version uses the full frame version, but missing a very small portion to the left and right.
But, I recall seeing Last Man Standing in the cinema and the ratio doesn't look correct, it seems to have been cropped too much at the top and bottom of the frame, hence cutting off too much head area. It may have even been zoomed? The theatrical ratio was very close to 2.35:1, but this one seems to be more like 2.45:1.
"Video...are you talking about the VHS release? Because both VHS and DVD are considered "video," although I'm nit-picking"
Thanks. I'm still a little bit confused, but that's more because I don't know nearly as much about video as I do audio...maybe I should ask my girlfriend to make sense of this. Thanks anyways, I appreciate it.
Yeah, my statements may seem a bit muddled, sorry.
I have the Region 4 dvd from Village Roadshow and I don't know if its the same transfer as the New Line Region 1 Dvd? But, the widescreen image is definetly missing too much picture at the top and bottom, but only a very small amount.
The aspect of Super-35 is about 1.55:1, therefor when you cut a bit of the top and bottom you will get 2.35:1, if you cut a bit off the sides then you will get 1.33:1.
However, many Super-35 films on VHS and TV are just cropped versions of the 2.35:1 image.
The 2.35:1 image is the way the film is supposed to be seen. No director considers alternate photography for a 1.33:1 image while framing a shot in 2.35:1, so it's obvious there is going to be extra space with nothing in it (the 'dead space' it's called).
If your girlfriend knew about photography she'd know and respect this technique.
I don't know if anyone still follows this thread... I had a similar problem with an european edition of Jackie Brown - same thing, it had fullscreen and widescreen option - on a single dvd, regular edition (i.e. not much extras). It was just as u guys say about the LMS dvd - the widescreen just cut off the top and the bottom from the picture. In such case I prefer to watch it in fullscreen. I have no idea what a bright head came up with this geious idea... When u cut 1:2,35 to 4:3 u lose around 1/3 of the picture - when u turn fullscreen into widescreen by cutting off parts of the picture u obviously lose another 1/3.
"Well, unfortunately, that's what widescreen can do sometimes. Depending on the aspect ratio, 2.40:1 or 1.88:1, the tops and bottoms of the picture will be cut off versus fullscreen format. 2.40:1 will cut off more, while 1.88:1 will cut off less. The tradeoff, of course, is a much wider picture, providing a grander scope of cinema. However, sometimes DVDs will have an artificial widescreen version, which isn't really widescreen, but a letterbox format within a 4:3 image. It's easy to tell which one you have.
First of all, do you have a widescreen TV? Because if you don't and you have a normal aspect ratio television, then there isn't anything wrong with watching movies in fullscreen. But I digress. The easiest way to tell is to set your DVD player to 16:9 format. You can do this in the DVD player's set-up menu, usually under a "Screen setup" submenu, or something similar. Some DVD players ask you what kind of TV you are using instead. Either way, set it to 16:9. When you play the movie on the widescren side it will fill up your TV from top to bottom (unless it is a 2.40:1 aspect ratio, in which case the black bars on top and bottom will simply be smaller than they were before) but at the same time the picture will look stretched vertically. If the image doesn't distort and it looks the same as before, then the disc doesn't have a true widescreen cut, and instead just has a 4:3 version with letterbox bars at the top and bottom. This is what will happen on a normal 4:3 television. If you have a widescreen television, then it's possible that you never had your DVD player set to 16:9, and that your TV's zoom funciton was cutting a little too much off the ends of the picture. In this case, keep your player set to 16:9, and from now on, watch all of your movie with your TV's wide-mode set to "Full". " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well that's a whole lot of hogwash. If you don't know what you're talking about why comment? 2.35-1 ratio widescreen is not letterboxed it's shot using anamorphic lenses. When these films are presented in fullscreen(4:3) they go through the pan and scan process. Newer films (like this one) shot super-35 can either be letterboxed in the case of 1.85-1 or presented fullscreen without the black bars. In either case you don't get any more intended information when watching the film fullscreen. The films are made for widescreen and composed to fit that aspect ratio not fullscreen TV's. You need to stop lying to people and spreading false information. I watched a DVD of it just now and it looks exactly the same as when I watched it in the cinema. It was shot 2.39-1 and the DVD presents is as that.
One should judge a man mainly from his depravities.Virtues can be faked.Depravities are real.Kinski
It was two years ago. I think the world made it by alright without your expansive knowledge to clear this ever-burgeoning crisis up.
So forgive me for trying to use layman's terms to help an individual understand why his particular DVD was cutting off more of the picture than he thought it should. I'll never misuse the word "letterbox" again.
______________________________________ "In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, come again" ~Snatch
This is a Super 35 movie, so it's basically shot in 1.33:1 (old school TV) and then masked (black bars added) to make it 2.35:1.
This way, the filmmaker can feel they are not compromising their image so much when the black bars are removed and it plays on a TV in full screen as at least you are not effectively re-cutting the movie by panning and scanning a widescreen image.
However, the filmmaker's intention is always that the masked image is the correct image. Somwtimes this means that shots play a little wider and with more inactive space top and bottom. However, for LMS I'm pretty sure Walter Hill chose the shoot tight to the faces for more of a comic book image feel and as a reference to Leone's super tight close ups.
For an example of how panning and scanning can mess up a beautifully edited movie, watch a pan and scan of Basic Instinct.
For an example of how Super 35 masters are sometimes not just unmasked but (insanely) left masked and then panned and scanned within the 2.35:1 region, see the TV version of Ridley Scott's "Black Rain" (the UK VHS at least was an unmasked version).
Pre-DVD panning and scanning was a big issue for directors and many a film has been ruined by lazy work (check out Argento's "The Bird with a Crystal Plummage" on Stablecane VHS, where rather than panning and scanning the master just runs on the centre of the frame, rendering several scenes incomprehesible).
Now, with DVDs being 16:9 as standard, it's less of a problem (although TV can still be a pain, particularly in the US).
My main problem with the UK (R2) LMS disk is that it's not anamporphic, so the print offers little improvement over my widescreen VHS copy. For an anamorphic print (hell, and throw in a Walter Hill commentary) I'd pay a lot.
"For an example of how Super 35 masters are sometimes not just unmasked but (insanely) left masked and then panned and scanned within the 2.35:1 region, see the TV version of Ridley Scott's "Black Rain" (the UK VHS at least was an unmasked version)."
Black Rain is definitely an interesting example for video transfer. In the U.S., when Black Rain was released in widescreen for Laserdisc, (and initial DVD release) the widescreen version was basically a cropping of the fullscreen version of the film.
I am certain of this because I have done comparisons of the fullscreen version when it was on TV to the Laserdisc version. There was no difference in the amount of available information on the sides.
Another clue was that the opening credits in the film were of inconsistent quality. Some credits in the opening sequence have been digitally altered in order to fit better in the screen. One example is the Paramount Pictures presents card. It looks like it was added on a frozen frame. When the card fades out, there is a subtle shift in the picture quality as it continues to the original credits. Other things of note is the quality of the lettering on some credits. (The LD and the Fullscreen are the same in this respect)
Also, in the widescreen version, when the end credits are rolling, the lettering seems a little squished as if it was a pan and scan. You probably wouldn't be able to notice until you get to the logos like the Panavision logo. That one looks unusually thin.
The final clue was when I bought the special edition DVD. Besides the brighter and more lively picture, the image has opened up a little even though it is the exact same aspect ratio as the other widescreen releases. You see more images on the sides and the top and bottom. The opening credits are consistent in quality and the end credits are in their correct proportions.
well, this was shot in Super 35, which means a normal flat lens was used (as opposed to an anamorphic one), and the filmed image was cropped to 2.40:1 ratio. This was Walter Hill's first movie in "widescreen", all his others had been 1.85:1, so my feeling is he didn't know how to frame it correctly, never having used it before.
L: I'm talking about a little place called Aspen H: I don't know Lloyd, the french are a ssholes
I did notice when I watched the film on DVD that the aspect ratio was unusually wide.
It may have cropped the tops and bottoms beyond what was in the Theatrical exhibition, or there might have been a hell of a lot of picture missing. This film is framed quite closely to 2.50:1.
However, I didn't notice anything that seemed too tight.
The DVD that I have that seems overly cropped is Broken Arrow.