MovieChat Forums > Hellraiser: Bloodline (1996) Discussion > Some questions...

Some questions...

posted 9 years ago by matthi-92639
8 replies | jump to latest

Wow, horror fans are really, really stupid... This board was so disappointing.

I guess I'll ask what I couldn't find here on other threads, since no one wanted to actually discuss the film, just bitch about its setting in space and other things that didn't matter.

-Why would Angelique have gone through the trouble of summoning Pinhead with the lament configuration by proxy? Which I assume is the very same buried by Joanne at the end of the previous film in the cement foundation. Either she didn't have faith in her own abilities to get what she wanted from John (unlikely), or the writers needed a way to bring Pinhead (poster boy) into the plot and she actually had no real motivation for summoning him at all. It also seems strange she'd even know the box was there to begin with; or not have one of the copies she had made from the original already in her possession by the time she went to America.

-Does anyone know how the Elysium configuration was actually supposed to function? Is there some kind of context about the "infinite light" I'm missing from other source material? Or are they just following the genre cliche of light>darkness? The Cenobites didn't seem to be effected adversely by light in previous films, so why now? Oh wait! I guess that light wasn't the infinite kind... Whatever...

-Jacques assumes a curse on L'Merchant, but no actual ritual is performed to invoke the curse or backstory given on how someone would be cursed for opening a pathway to Hell. I guess the curse was inherent with summoning Angelique, unless I'm missing something...

-Jacques has the same appearance but is also centuries older in the John Merchant timeline, only no explanation is given how that's possible. I guess we're just to assume he forced Angelique to somehow prolong his mortality, even though there's no mention of "demons" having the power to do so in the franchise. And why would it even be the will of Hell to do this?

-Who did Leviathan *beep* to produce Angelique in the first place? It's a geometric deity, and no mention an ability to assume a human form, or any other form is given in the second film. And are we also to assume that the will of Hell is the will of Leviathan? I was under the impression the Labyrinth wasn't Hell and that the Cenobites came from an extra-dimensional realm focused on the senses and experience. There seems to be a lot of confusion on that point within the franchise.

-I'm also confused why the Lament configuration chained Angelique. Was the will of Hell violated when she convinced John Merchant to finish the Elysium configuration? Was she just bored and trying to piss off Daddy in the first place? Is this also why she appeared to be subjugated by Pinhead as a cenobite in the space timeline, and was this some form of punishment?

-How were the Cenobites trapped in that chamber? In other films they seemed to be able to manifest at will anywhere and at any point, so long as they were summoned into our reality through the box. The second film even adds the context of how desire is their true motivation in seeking a person out after their initial summoning; and not necessarily seeking out the person that manipulated the box... With that reasoning they should've made a b-line straight for Dr. Merchant, but I guess the film would've ended before it began and we wouldn't have had the backstory given during his interrogation, which was 75% of the film...

-And what happened to the box's Guardian? Are we just to assume it never made itself manifest again after it was absorbed into the pillar at the end of the second film? Was it a creation of Pinhead? Leviathan? Angelique?

It seems like they actually tried to have a decent narrative here, and either rushed things because of time constraints or budgeting and left a lot of important elements unexplained or barely touched upon in favor of style. Or maybe I'm just expecting a lot from a B horror film. Probably that. It's a fascinating universe, I wish it was just fleshed out better (I know I'm punny...). I haven't read Clive's written work so maybe things are better explained there, if they are please let me know and I'll give it a read.

Overall I was impressed with the film, it took itself seriously and the effects, lighting, and cinematography were the best in the bar none. Really quality stuff for its budget and especially for the time of its release. Not to mention a huge improvement over previous installments, with "Hellbound" being particularly bad in those regards.

[–] HellboundHero 9 years ago

Maybe the rules of the box are so strict that Pinhead would be obligated to tear apart even a demon princess and take her soul to Hell if she were to personally solve the box. So like Channard(and Paul Merchant with the robot), she used a proxy so she didn't get the hooks-and-chains treatment herself. As for Angelique knowing where the box is, it's probably some form of Hellish sixth sense. Btw, it definitely is the box that Joey buried in the cement, and that's the same building from the ending of Hellraiser III.

I don't entirely understand the Elysium Configuration but yeah, I'm assuming it's the perpetual part that makes the light deadly to cenobites.

The curse came from LeMarchand building the Lament Configuration, as far as I know. He created a gateway to Hell, so that must rank up there with other cursable offenses(such as disturbing a mummy's tomb).

In the original cut of Bloodline, De'Lisle banished Angelique back to Hell after he learned that the science of the puzzle box was meant to replace his magic(summoning demons with incantations and pentagrams). Jacques re-summoned her and as De'Lisle said, "he who summons the magic, commands the magic, unless you stand in Hell's way", and I suppose that one of the gifts of commanding a demon is immortality. In the director's cut, when Jacques refused to allow Angelique to go to America to meet John Merchant, he rapidly aged and turned skeletal and then into dust, signifying the "unless you stand in Hell's way" portion of the rule.

I don't think Angelique was literally created through the act of coitus, and her original form isn't human. She only took on that shape because they used a human sacrifice as part of summoning her. If anything, she was probably created the same way any god creates life, whatever that process entails. But yes, when they refer to Hell, they're referring to the labyrinth ruled by Leviathan. The realm was explicitly referred to as Hell starting with Hellraiser II.

The original cut, as usual, made it clearer that Angelique wasn't happy with Pinhead's differing methods and philosophy. She doesn't seem to be a fan of his more barbaric, torturous methods. So she decided to betray him and have Merchant destroy him with the Elysium. In response, Pinhead used a chain to fly up to the ceiling away from the perpetual light and then summoned more chains to drag her into the light to kill her. The theatrical cut implies that once the box is solved, it takes any denizen of Hell that's nearby. The lights you see as she's being dragged to the box are actually the lights of the Elysium and not the usual puzzle box light show, and the shot of the chains coming out of the box originated from Sharpe solving it previously, when Pinhead is first summoned.

As for Angelique being a cenobite in the future, that probably ties into why she didn't personally solve the box. She's just as vulnerable to the rules of the box as a human. Maybe the ritual that summoned her did make her technically human enough to be endangered by solving the box? In that case, if she were a cenobite or a full demon, solving the box wouldn't have resulted in her being claimed like a human and imprisoned in a personal Hell. Or maybe cenobites/demons can't solve the box to summon cenobites from Hell.

It's probably just an inconsistency, but it's also possible that Merchant built the space station with entrapping demons in mind, so even they couldn't teleport around it as freely as they normally could. Have you seen 13 Ghosts? The walls have mystical writings on them that trap the ghosts and prevent them from leaving the house. I'm thinking the space station could be Hellraiser's equivalent of that.

The box guardian/derelict does appear in Hellraiser III, selling the pillar of souls to JP. Most likely, the writer just couldn't find a place for him in this particular story. It's not uncommon for certain tropes in a movie series to randomly fall out of use. I think the labyrinth itself(and Leviathan by extension) is a glaring example of that. It's never seen again after Hellraiser II(even if it is referenced).

Many of the movie's problems come down to the studio taking it away from the original director and butchering it. Many scenes set in 18th century France were omitted or replaced, as well as a few key scenes in the present day and future portions of the movie.

[–] matthi-92639 9 years ago

"Maybe the rules of the box are so strict that Pinhead would be obligated to tear apart even a demon princess and take her soul to Hell if she were to personally solve the box."

That does make sense, but I'd love to know who made those rules and why Pinhead would feel obligated to obey them.

"In the original cut of Bloodline, De'Lisle banished Angelique back to Hell after he learned that the science of the puzzle box was meant to replace his magic(summoning demons with incantations and pentagrams). Jacques re-summoned her and as De'Lisle said, "he who summons the magic, command the magic, unless you stand in Hell's way", and I suppose that one of the gifts of commanding a demon is immortality. In the director's cut, when Jacques refused to allow Angelique to go to America to meet John Merchant, he rapidly aged and turned skeletal and then into dust, signifying the "unless you stand in Hell's way" portion of the rule."

That's much less vague than the version they settled for...

"I don't think Angelique was literally created through the act of coitus, and her original form isn't human."

I'm not sure why I even asked that, I was aware she wasn't originally human in form.

"But yes, when they refer to Hell, they're referring to the labyrinth ruled by Leviathan. The realm was explicitly referred to as Hell starting with Hellraiser II."

It is widely speculated and hinted that its not the biblical Hell, but an extra dimension that can be perceived as Heaven or Hell by whomever is trapped there, if this is true, then there are 2 kinds of Hell in the Hellraiser franchise. -Hellraiser Wiki

It seems this was never clearly defined. I honestly don't believe it's the same "Hell" we refer to either. That wiki submission makes the most sense imo...

"The lights you see as she's being dragged to the box are actually the lights of the Elysium and not the usual puzzle box light show, and the shot of the chains coming out of the box originated from Sharpe solving it previously, when Pinhead is first summoned."

That makes sense, I didn't realize both occurred simultaneously in that scene.

"As for Angelique being a cenobite in the future, that probably ties into why she didn't personally solve the box. She's just as vulnerable to the rules of the box as a human. Maybe the ritual that summoned her did make her technically human enough to be endangered by solving the box? In that case, if she were a cenobite or a full demon, solving the box wouldn't have resulted in her being claimed like a human and imprisoned in a personal Hell. Or maybe cenobites/demons can't solve the box to summon cenobites from Hell."

I think we're honestly left to just speculate over that. It was clear they needed her in cenobite makeup at some point, cause Hellraiser... You'd think she'd even discard her human form once she was dragged back to Hell through the Box, so there wouldn't even be anything to work with, it'd be a cenobite version of whatever her true form is.

"It's probably just an inconsistency, but it's also possible that Merchant built the space station with entrapping demons in mind, so even they couldn't teleport around it as freely as they normally could. Have you seen 13 Ghosts? The walls have mystical writings on them that trap the ghosts and prevent them from leaving the house. I'm thinking the space station could be Hellraiser's equivalent of that."

It's funny you should say that, cause that very thought did occur to me. Only I didn't see any incantations or anything indicative of ritualistic confinement in the summoning chamber or throughout the rest of the station. Logically from what we're shown, they should've been able to manifest at will anywhere in the station with no need to trick the soldier into letting them out.

"The box guardian/derelict does appear in Hellraiser III, selling the pillar of souls to JP. Most likely, the writer just couldn't find a place for him in this particular story. It's not uncommon for certain tropes in a movie series to randomly fall out of use. I think the labyrinth itself(and Leviathan by extension) is a glaring example of that. It's never seen again after Hellraiser II(even if it is referenced)."

I figured as much, there's a lot of unanswered questions there. Was the guardian only for the original box? Was there a guardian for every replica? How did the doctor in the future acquire the box? Was it passed down in lieu of a guardian as a family heirloom? That would make the heirloom box the very same buried in cement by Joey, and why did the guardian not claim it from the cement in the same way it did from Kirsty's bonfire? It's also not uncommon I guess to create a trope and then never actually explain it in depth.

"Many of the movie's problems come down to the studio taking it away from the original director and butchering it. Many scenes set in 18th century France were omitted or replaced, as well as a few key scenes in the present day and future portions of the movie."

They tend to do that don't they? I'll have to look at the original cut if it's available, that seems to be a less vague representation of the narrative. And thank you for taking the time to have the first conversation worth having here... Like I said, I wouldn't have had to be so verbose with a million questions if people actually discussed the film instead of complaining about it in the most vapid ways possible. Usually I can pick through a few threads for a film and find what I'm looking for, not on this gem though...

[–] HellboundHero 9 years ago

The impression I had after watching Hellbound is that the labyrinth is the Hellraiser universe's version of Hell, and it just happens to be very different than the one you read about in the Bible, misinterpreted in the same way that the Asgardians are thought to be gods when they're really aliens in the Marvel cinematic universe.

But I think the script/director's cut of Bloodline establishes that Hell starts out more traditional, with magic and pure demons and Satanic rituals with pentagrams and Latin incantations, and the creation of the Lament Configuration has a far reaching effect in the "culture" of Hell. Science is introduced into Hell via the puzzle box and they have their own "age of enlightenment" much as 18th century Europe was experiencing at the time and I guess you could say an industrial revolution too. So in my mind, this meant that Hell went from being this superstitious, fire and brimstone place of damnation to an intellectual, scientific realm devoted to the exploration of the human condition through pain and suffering.

[–] matthi-92639 9 years ago

I think that puts Pinhead's commentary to Angelique in perfect context. It's said the Labyrinth has the ability to change itself into someone's personal hell. With the advent of technology and a change in philosophy as you put it with the Age of Enlightenment, it's only logical that Hell would change to better accommodate those entering it. In this case, those that are technologically-minded and less superstitious.

You should change that wiki entry if you can. This theory's more sound than the one I linked. Two "Hells" would be redundant, the idea that hell changed from the biblical sense better fits the context of Hell in the franchise.

[–] carpathianwolff 9 years ago

You guys are thinking WAYYY TOO MUCH!!!

This is Hellraiser 4... not a well written masterpiece. With a running time of 85 minutes, it surely had a longer (probably much longer) running time originally. So obviously many plot holes, unexplained backgrounds, etc. are going to happen.
If Clive Barker had written this (but no way would he write such crap), then people might care about understanding the plot holes, continuity errors etc.
But this is Hollywood garbage. It's gone so far off the original vision and into the dumps.

[–] matthi-92639 9 years ago

"You guys are thinking WAYYY TOO MUCH!!!"

You're exactly the kind of poster I hoped wouldn't respond to my thread.

[–] carpathianwolff 9 years ago

Don't worry, I won't be a troll and try and argue with you.

I'm just saying there are literally hundreds of better horror films to use your time on.... why choose Hellraiser 4?

If Clive Barker had written Hellraiser 4, I may have many questions as you have for this film. But Peter Atkins, who also wrote the awful Hellraiser 3, wrote this film, and he probably couldn't explain your questions either. A typical Hollywood writer with no idea how to write horror.

Hollywood always wants more $$$ by being as lazy as possible, Clive Barker wanted nothing to do with this crap.

[–] matthi-92639 9 years ago

"Don't worry, I won't be a troll and try and argue with you."

You're not exactly equipped to argue with me anyway. My point was that there's probably twenty other threads of "this film sucks", so go post there in lieu of having nothing to contribute here.