Did Marie have Insestruous feelings toward Raymond? - Everybody Loves Raymond (1996) Discussion

[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

You do realize that "incestuous" involves a sexual relationship, correct?

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[–] Jupiter555555 9 years ago

You do realize that "incestuous" involves a sexual relationship, correct?

I said incestuous feelings.. not an incestuous relationship. The latter would require consent while the former can very well be one sided.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

I very much doubt that sit-com writers (not to mention, producers, sponsors, network executives, etc.) would explore "incest" as a topic in a prime-time sit-com, targeting family audiences.

Rather:

Marie is the "typical" Italian mother (and mother-in-law). She babies her son, even into adulthood. She thinks that no woman in the world is "good enough" for her baby. So, no wife will ever meet her approval. That's very common and very typical. It's the Italian culture. There is absolutely no incest whatsoever. Feelings or otherwise.

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[–] Jupiter555555 9 years ago

Then how come Frank said in "Angry Family" that the anger in the family comes from the fact that Raymond married Debra and Marie can't accept it? Sounds like a little deeper than anything you described.

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[–] Wildstyle26 9 years ago

Basically Marie thought that Debra was not good enough for Raymond, and is not the kind of woman Marie respects. Marie has expressed a few times that she thinks Debra is a tramp. lol

Plenty of parents don't approve of someone their kids marry or date. Doesn't mean they're in love with their kids. Marie is just very overbearing and controlling.

I think Marie is just a very overbearing mother, and due to that Ray is an extreme mama's boy who is a pig for attention due to Marie's spoiling. So because of how the 2 are, it comes off in a sick way, but I doubt either of them having any sexual or romantic feelings for one another.

And as said, it's Italian culture. I think the mother is like the ultimate in Italian families. Children are to always put the mother 1st, which explains why Marie has so much control in the family. And like Frank said, he'll speak to Marie any way he pleases, but he won't do that to his mother.

It's not like Friends where Danny's sister rubs food off of his crotch with tissue, then licks the tissue and rubs the spot again, or them wrestling and tickling each other, and taking a bath together. That is a relationship that didn't seem innocent. When Rachel goes by to talk to him, we see Danny's sister peaking out of the bathroom naked, and she calls to him that their bath is getting cold. Rachel is then finished with him, and according to Danny this happens with most women he tries to date.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

Then how come Frank said in "Angry Family" that the anger in the family comes from the fact that Raymond married Debra and Marie can't accept it? Sounds like a little deeper than anything you described.

That's actually exactly what I described.

My prior post said:

She thinks that no woman in the world is "good enough" for her baby. So, no wife will ever meet her approval.

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[–] BulletHeadedSaxonMothersSon 9 years ago

I actually kind of agree with the OP, even if Ray Romano and Phil Rosenthal didn't intend it that way.

It's not just the fact that Marie disapproves of Debra, it's also the sheer degree to which she hates Debra for marrying him--which I think also points to some psychopathic tendencies on Marie's part but then again I explored this in another post--as well as a bunch of other things. The way that she coddles him including even literally jumping into bed with him and Debra in the finale when she learns that he almost failed to come out of his coma and Debra even remarks that she knew that one day this would happen; the sheer extent to which she believes he can do no wrong and will always defend him, no matter what; hell, even the OP is forgetting about the flashback episode to when Ray and Debra first slept together and Marie says that it must be hard for a woman to restrain herself sexually around Raymond because he's such a cute boy, that's a strange thing for a mother to say about her son, overbearing Italian mama or not; you people are also forgetting about the episode Marriage Counseling in which Ray thoughtlessly blurts out that he wants a mother to take care of him instead of a wife proper. Debra, Robert and even Frank stare daggers at Ray and Ray himself looks like he's about to be sick while Marie just beams with bliss.

Not to mention her reaction in the Angry Family which the OP already pointed out.

It all adds up.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

It all adds up.

It does not all add up.

You are forgetting that we are watching a sit-com.

The writers, actors, etc., are working on a job; and that job is to produce a sit-com. Hopefully, a successful one.

One of the most basic and common elements in a sit-com is to take everyday life situations and to exaggerate them (for humorous effect).

That is exactly what is happening here.

They take a normal everyday life situation. Then, they exaggerate it to the nth degree. Because that makes for a funny situation. Rather than an everyday, boring, mundane, unfunny situation.

A normal situation that is then highly exaggerated is one of the main staples employed when creating a comedic situation and, thus, when producing a sit-com.

It is precisely the exaggeration that makes the situation comedic.

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[–] Jupiter555555 9 years ago

I actually kind of agree with the OP, even if Ray Romano and Phil Rosenthal didn't intend it that way.

It's not just the fact that Marie disapproves of Debra, it's also the sheer degree to which she hates Debra for marrying him--which I think also points to some psychopathic tendencies on Marie's part but then again I explored this in another post--as well as a bunch of other things. The way that she coddles him including even literally jumping into bed with him and Debra in the finale when she learns that he almost failed to come out of his coma and Debra even remarks that she knew that one day this would happen; the sheer extent to which she believes he can do no wrong and will always defend him, no matter what; hell, even the OP is forgetting about the flashback episode to when Ray and Debra first slept together and Marie says that it must be hard for a woman to restrain herself sexually around Raymond because he's such a cute boy, that's a strange thing for a mother to say about her son, overbearing Italian mama or not; you people are also forgetting about the episode Marriage Counseling in which Ray thoughtlessly blurts out that he wants a mother to take care of him instead of a wife proper. Debra, Robert and even Frank stare daggers at Ray and Ray himself looks like he's about to be sick while Marie just beams with bliss.

Not to mention her reaction in the Angry Family which the OP already pointed out.

It all adds up.

Bingo. Glad I'm not the only one who sees it. Of course, full disclosure, I'm a little bias as I have a mother-in-law exactly like Marie Barone. It's quite annoying and I kind of think she's a freak haha.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

Bingo. Glad I'm not the only one who sees it. Of course, full disclosure, I'm a little bias as I have a mother-in-law exactly like Marie Barone. It's quite annoying and I kind of think she's a freak haha.

So, you literally believe that your mother-in-law is interested in a sexual relationship with her son, your husband? I find that very hard to believe.

And if, indeed, that were (literally) true, it's doubtful that you'd be posting that in a public forum.

My point is: I believe that you are being more figurative than literal.

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[–] Jupiter555555 9 years ago

So, you literally believe that your mother-in-law is interested in a sexual relationship with her son, your husband? I find that very hard to believe.

And if, indeed, that were (literally) true, it's doubtful that you'd be posting that in a public forum.

My point is: I believe that you are being more figurative than literal.

Once when we were still dating, she saw us holding hands as we were walking up the walkway to her house. I saw her looking through the window. When we got inside she was furious for no apparent reason and began yelling at my now husband about a bunch of irrational crap, among other things saying that he's been spending too much time with me and that she's more important. I was right there, mind you... Maybe it's a coincidence that this took place right after she spied on us and saw us holding hands while walking up the walk. Or it was spurred by seeing me hold her son's hand. It's all speculation, but I have my beliefs. Your side is equally speculator, right down to what I think and what I'd post on a public forum.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

Everything you described sounds like an over-protective mother who babies her son and does not find any female to be "good enough" as a wife for him. Just like Marie. None of what you stated in any remote way speaks to incestuous feelings. I think you are applying the word "incest" rather broadly. I highly doubt your mother-in-law wants to have sexual intercourse, anal intercourse, fellatio, or cunnilingus with your husband, her son. Let's be realistic. I use those graphic terms so that you can actually visualize the idea that you are proposing.

Very. Highly. Unlikely.

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[–] Wildstyle26 9 years ago

Yeah. I think the humor is that it can come off as inappropriate, but it's not a serious issue.

The Barones are known for not having good boundaries, with how they just barge into the house, and blurt out whatever is on their minds. They basically have no sense of tact or filters. Look ho Marie just comes over with 2 friends while Debra is wrestling with the kids. Marie should be able to see it wasn't a good time, and Debra even told her it wasn't. But Marie wouldn't let it go, so Debra finally yelled at her in front of her friends before she got the point.

So Marie's actions toward Ray are an over protective mother, but due to her overbearing nature, and fondness for her little boy, she behaves in an even more extreme manner and with her lack of tact, it comes off as creepy. Some parents are just like that with kids. because even if their kids are grown, they still see their baby, and sometimes it manifests in awkward ways.

If we're gonna get serious or grasp, then Debra and Ray are perverted. When looking at a sonogram of the twins both of them comment their sons' penises are cute. Why are they looking at their sons' privates and gushing?

There was the episode Pants on Fire. It was Ray's b-day soon, and Marie tells him to be sure he's someplace she can find him to give him his birth min. kiss. She then warns him not to be in the shower this year because it was awkward last time that happened. If she was lusting for Ray, she'd have enjoyed catching him in the shower.

And her comment about "if he wasn't my son" shows she's not incestuous. Because some who is won't care about the bond of blood. They'll go ahead and try to sleep with their brother, sister, father, etc. But she acknowledges that Ray is not bad-looking. But her lack of tact + boundaries is the problem.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

To SilverWolf442:

Very well said. I agree.

Some people don't "get" how a sit-com works, it seems.

They (the writers and actors and producers) take an everyday life situation. And then they highly exaggerate it. (Even to a ridiculous degree.) And the exaggeration is precisely what makes things funny. And, thus, the exaggeration is one of the ingredients -- and probably the main ingredient -- for a successful sit-com.

On these Message Boards, some people want to see the sit-com characters behave exactly the same way that real-life people behave. Well, if they were to do that, I have news for you. Then, it's not a sit-com. I repeat, not a sit-com. That would be called a documentary or perhaps a drama. But definitely not a sit-com.

So, people shouldn't watch a sit-com, expect the sit-com to be funny, and then complain when the sit-com employs all the standard tactics in order to, in fact, be funny.

Geez.

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[–] Jupiter555555 9 years ago

I highly doubt your mother-in-law wants to have sexual intercourse, anal intercourse, fellatio, or cunnilingus with your husband, her son.

I hope you're right. I really do.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

I am sure I am.

Best of luck!

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[–] rockville_lady 9 years ago

There was an episode in S8 where Marie was complaining about Frank and Debra about Ray. Marie asked Debra if she wanted to switch..."If I was 40 years younger and Ray wasn't my son...". Ray said "Maaaa stop" so it didn't go any further but yeah, I can see Marie having these feelings.
Let's not forget how in the season finale after she found out how Ray had trouble coming out of anesthesia she LEAPT into bed and started caressing/kissing Ray. That part totally ooooged me out!

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[–] user-19247 9 years ago

In the last episode when Marie realizes Ray had problems waking up from his operation, camera cut to: Ray and Debra making out in their bed, and Marie jump into the bed, pushing Debra and starting showering Ray in Kisses. Debra says: "...this was about to happen".

It might be an Italian Mom thing...even Jewish Mom...but there is a Freudian relationship there.

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[–] lpt0127 9 years ago

I noticed that, too.. she did push the envelope a few times.

one time remarking how Ray was strong and virile, neither of which were true.. the scene was about her wanting to make him feel better about himself after Frank was ribbing him, but you could hear the lust in her voice.

another time she was going on and on about how if she were 30 years younger and Ray wasn't her son (fill in the blanks).. if I didn't know any better, I'd swear Marie's panties were a little damp.

and then in the series finale, she finally got what she wanted.. using Ray's "near death" as an excuse to pounce on him and molest him in bed while wearing her red satin jammies.. it almost makes sense to change the title of the show to Marie Wants To Have Sex With Raymond

Welcome to the El Flamingo, Jeffrey!
Don't piss in the pool, Jeffrey.

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[–] BulletHeadedSaxonMothersSon 9 years ago

and then in the series finale, she finally got what she wanted.. using Ray's "near death" as an excuse to pounce on him and molest him in bed while wearing her red satin jammies.. it almost makes sense to change the title of the show to Marie Wants To Have Sex With Raymond

LOL! Totally agree!


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[–] NobodymournstheWicked 9 years ago

Not to be sure about that to be honest with you

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[–] SkiesAreBlue 9 years ago

Good grief people, it's a sit-com. Situation comedy, in caps if you didn't know. When did it become a Sigmand Froid, mother Oedipus situation? If you want to delve into such a series, watch The Borgias". Marie is the epitome of a controlling Mumma, be it Catholic, Jewish, Muslum or Protestant. We all have a "Marie" in our lives. Mine favoured the second son and DIL, my husband was so like his mother in personality they clashed and I bore the brunt if it. Otherwise shall we go back to Frank wanting to smell the twins all the time. "Ah the fountaine of youth" really? I could have a problem with that.

SkiesAreBlue

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[–] jezfernandez 9 years ago

Lots of comments on this one. I know why you've raised this, because there are times when Marie's motherly adoration goes a shade too far. I'm thinking of the one where Ray blurts out that what he really wants from Debra is mothering. Someone (probably Robert) says, "Are you saying you wish you'd marry mom?" and Marie's face is a picture of pure delight! Hilarious at the end when Robert brings Ray that cardboard bride with Marie's face pasted on!

There was also the one where Ally's friend's mother slaps Ray's butt and the whole "she hit on me" thing comes up. I think that's the one where Marie's sitting at the table with Ray and goes on about how natural it is for women to find him attractive, especially when he wears tight jeans!

Of course, I agree with other posters that this is just an exaggeration of the doting Italian mother (though I've never been sure why Robert is like the invisible son to her). Also, Marie doesn't hate Debra - there are lots of episodes where you see genuine love and affection from her. Again, it's all exaggeration for the sake of comedy.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

Exactly.

The writers take a "normal" situation. They exaggerate it a thousand times over what it really is. And that formula equals "funny".

And that is their goal: humor and funny. Their goal is not to depict realistic situations. If they did, we'd have either a run-of-the-mill documentary. Or a very un-funny sitcom that would get cancelled very quickly.

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[–] Jupiter555555 9 years ago

So you admit that they are "exaggerating" something...but that something must still exist in the narrative in order for it to be exaggerated. The sexual friction between mother and son might be exaggerated, but it exists.. otherwise you can't use the word "exaggerate", as they would just be tossing something random into the mix and that is not what you have proposed since the beginning of this debate.

Don't doubt for a second that I, too, find this repulsive from the outset. I don't want to think this or like thinking it (much like Angelina Jolie making out with her brother, gag!), but I can't deny it because it's not something that's pleasant to ponder.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 9 years ago

So you admit that they are "exaggerating" something...but that something must still exist in the narrative in order for it to be exaggerated. The sexual friction between mother and son might be exaggerated, but it exists.

No. You are completely wrong. And I never said/admitted that.

The "normal situation" is the normal affection between a mother and a son. A mother who dotes on her son and "babies" and pampers him. Even when he is an adult, in his 40's. And a son who basks in that special treatment. That is the "normal" situation.

The exaggeration is when that (the normal situation described above) gets extended to imply an element of sexuality or of incestuousness.

It is the relationship/affection that is exaggerated. It is not the sex or incest (already present, as you theorize) that then gets exaggerated. No, not at all.

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[–] tomkaren1994 8 years ago

The sexual friction between mother and son might be exaggerated, but it exists..

For Christ's sake get your head out of your crotch.

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[–] BulletHeadedSaxonMothersSon 9 years ago

there are times when Marie's motherly adoration goes a shade too far. I'm thinking of the one where Ray blurts out that what he really wants from Debra is mothering. Someone (probably Robert) says, "Are you saying you wish you'd marry mom?" and Marie's face is a picture of pure delight!

I pointed that out in one of my previous posts. Can't you read?

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[–] jezfernandez 9 years ago

So you did. I didn't read every post in detail before contributing to this discussion. You seem considerably irked by this.

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[–] BulletHeadedSaxonMothersSon 8 years ago

I just last night saw the episode "Sleepover at Peggy's" in which Peggy pats Ray on the ass when he goes to drop Ally off at Peggy and her daughter's place. In the last scene of the episode, Marie has found out what happened and Ray is trying to explain that Peggy was NOT coming on to him and Marie actually says to Ray's face "How is that possible? Everything about your look and the way you move could drive a woman crazy!"

WHAT!

WHAT!!

WHAAAAATTTTT!!!!!!!!!!

Even if everything else in the other episodes discussed in previous posts were somehow accidental, Phil Rosenthal and the writers had to have been deliberately trying to convey that Marie was in lust with Ray in the scene in question.

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[–] Wildstyle26 8 years ago

However, when Ray leaves, Marie mutters "He won't do that again."

So it seemed she was deliberately trying to make him uncomfortable.

So again, I doubt Marie is lusting for Ray. She's just tactless with no sense of boundaries. And with that, some people say things that are inappropriate, but they're not perverts, or incestuous.

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[–] jmbwithcats 8 years ago

This is all projecting, there is definitely nothing incestuous about the show. Marie is just playing a complex and realistic mother extremely well.

www.jmberman.com
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