Fine, but it is the fact that you are taking the bible for fact and nothing but, while I will freely admit, the bible is a good teaching tool inspired by God, it was still written by man and look how many versions of the bible there is, and each one is changed in some way shape or form, where text is rewritten far beyond the original text. And not to go all conspiracy theory on this, but WHY were those books left out, What made the Gospels of Mark, Luke, John and Matthew so much more worthy than the others, I personally would like to know about Gospel according to Thomas.
And I never said that Lucifer was not in the bible, I said Lucifer is not called the devil in the bible. And the Lucifer is the name of the Angel, just like Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, Raziel and so on, and just like all names the name has a meaning. And While I cannot deny that there are name changes in the bible to many figures... the majority you cite are titles not names.
Jesus son of Joseph, of Nazareth (names) Christ, Son of God, Messiah, Savior, Rabbi (these are titles.) Same for John the Baptist. Saul to Paul and Simon to Peter, the bible at least says the previous and current names when speaking of the respective person. When did the Bible ever say Satan who was once Lucifer. The James and John given the names of Boanerges, you got me on that one, I have not heard of that.
Sorry, two's company, and three's an adult movie.
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Lucas_Stroud
14 years ago
Well, this argument becomes moot when some people, including myself are looking at one source and others are looking at others. This is definitely an interesting discussion, but one that we cannot agree upon. There is too much interpretation to be done on the subject. It is true that the scripture might refer to Babylon or its king, so in that case it would be a title (morning star). The reason that so many interpret the passage to being a reference to the devil or satan (notice the lower case, because I have no respect for demons) is because of its similarity to Jesus' comment about seeing the devil cast down from Heaven. This similarity might just have been to show how evil that empire was.
On the subject of the Bible being the work of man, I do not think that we will be able to agree either. I believe the Bible is inspired in its entirety, by God. You are correct that there have been and are many translations. Some of them unfortunately were abused in order to be used as tools for control. Thankfully, God has gifted some people adequately and tasked them with translating the Bible from its original text into English and nearly every other language in the world. I am not one of them, so I must put my faith in God, because I have the language acquisition skills of an ape.
The books that were left out of the Bible in most all cases were considered to be flawed and not inspired by God. In several cases the early Church felt that they were written with an earthly view. Another common reason from my understanding is that, as in the case of the "gospel according to Thomas," the author is unknown or in question. You can say that it was a conspiracy by the early church leaders to have only one cannon/story/view of Jesus. I believe however, that these leaders relied on the leading of God in their decisions regarding scripture. There are hundreds of ancient writings about Christ, and well there should be His life, death, and resurrection are the most important events in World History.
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Griever_2112
14 years ago
I agree, You were a worthy opponent good sir. This was a very good discussion.
Regarding the casting down of Lucifer, Satan, etc... would you at least agree that he was not the only one cast out of Heaven?
In regards to the bible again... While I will agree to the point of yes, some stories were definitely inspired by God, the ones who's books took, as you say a more earthly approach, I fell should have been included, so, if anything give the book some grounding otherwise, not saying you, but those who read it take it word for word that it is law and completely divine, cause their is a difference between inspired by, and as told by.
If you want to do one last reply you can, if you just want to end it on this note, then cool. It was a good discussion, and we stayed civil, at least I think we did.
Sorry, two's company, and three's an adult movie.
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Lucas_Stroud
14 years ago
There were definitely multiple angels who fell from grace. Otherwise there would be a lot less evil in the world. The devil and other demons are not omnipresent or all powerful. The only power that he really has is what we give him. I think that was one thing this film got right. After he took Gabriel (thankfully fiction) he tried to convince the humans to go with him. First he said what he thought that they wanted to hear, "Come with me, I love you more than Jesus." They said no way, so he resorted to fear tactics. In reality demons are quite crafty and they will use whatever tools they think will work.
The rebellion was nothing like the way it is romanticized in films though, and how could it be when God could end them with a thought. I believe that some angels felt that they were God's greatest creations and were unhappy with fact that He had created us with free will. This is something which they do not have. There was no battle though, they could not win anyway. They were cast down to live on the Earth until the final judgment. This is the point at which satan will be cast into the lake of fire along with his fellow demons and those who do not accept Christ as their savior. I pray that all people will be given that opportunity at judgment, but we do not yet know. I simply know that God is filled with love and that He wants us with Him.
The issue of the Bible's divinity is an interesting one. God does say in Deuteronomy not to add to or take away from his Word. I believe that he spoke directly to his prophets. Therefore they were able to communicate what he told them to his people. The majority of the New Testament is kind of a different situation though. In the case of the Gospels, they were either written based on events that they witnessed or they had learned about from first hand witnesses. The letters that were written to various congregations were also guided by God I believe. They do however also include personal opinions of their authors, which is where the Christian perspective rather than an earthly one becomes important.
My opinion on the Bible is that it is the Word of God, but it is not the Perfect word fulfilled. That was and is Jesus. His teachings are the most clear word of God in existence.
It is great that a film from a decade and a half ago can still act as a catalyst for a great conversation. Thank you for your time, even if you were not able to make it through this block of text.
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Griever_2112
14 years ago
Well the "War in Heaven" is mentioned in Revelations 12, so their was some kind of uprising, the "ensuing battle" is absolutely up for debate. And I do agree with
he tried to convince the humans to go with him. First he said what he thought that they wanted to hear, "Come with me, I love you more than Jesus." They said no way, so he resorted to fear tactics. In reality demons are quite crafty and they will use whatever tools they think will work.
that is true.
quick back to the bible, a friend of mine had said the best books to read regarding what Christianity should be was... and forgive me, I live in NJ and he in Arizona so as I type this he is not available to confirm it. But I believe he said, Paul's 2nd letter to the Corinthians and Romans. Regarding the new testament, you can look at it as simply the teachings of Christ passed on through his disciples with their take on the teachings. cause I'm sure the lessons and experiences weren't verbatim, but they were still coming from those who knew him.
I do have one last question though, and if you want PM it to me... but this was something that kinda came to me when looking up some more info on the original subject.... by chance are you a member of the Latter Day Saints? I swear this is not a judgement, but a sheer observation.
Thanks again this was definitely fun.
Sorry, two's company, and three's an adult movie.
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Lucas_Stroud
14 years ago
No, I am a Lutheran, who was raised in a military chapel world. In other words, I have had pastors from nearly all denominations. Although there is not perfect/infallible denomination, I agree with the most teachings from this church. It really saddens me, because as I said earlier the deceiver and his demons use all types of things to trick and manipulate people. I am of the belief that the Mormon Church has been misled. I mentioned before that all religions including Christianity have been used by people for their own benefit, and I feel that this is the case with that religion.
Back to the Bible, I like that. Romans is a book that is often considered to be very descriptive of the early church and informative about were as disciples are still called to do. I am not all that familiar with 2nd Corinthians, but I will give it another read and reflection. Thank you very much for referencing the 12th chapter of Revelation. It contains one of my favorite verses, or maybe I should say ideas, which I could not remember the location of. Revelation 12:11 - They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
It is important to remember that the Devil has already lost. We have nothing to fear. The battle is won and our lives here are to be used in service not to be worried about. It is something that many of us, most certainly including myself, need to be reminded of regularly. Death's sting is gone, for Christ died the death that mattered and he overcame it for us. Thanks again for your time and thoughts. It was a pleasure, and if anything that I have said led you away from redemption at the cross I am sorry. I am a fallen man. God bless.
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Griever_2112
14 years ago
Ahh... I asked only because I had read that the Latter Day Saints actually taught that Lucifer and Satan were one in the same, so I was looking to see if the line of belief was one of self discovery or just what was taught... I actually went to a Lutheran school for a while, and have known many faiths myself.
Maybe we can one day pick up the conversation again after we revisit 2nd Corinthians and compare notes :)
I don't think he's lost, I think it is a stalemate, I say that because while, yes Jesus died to save us, it is still ultimately up to us to accept that salvation. As well as the teachings and follow that path, even the righteous and noble can be still led down the dark paths. So while I believe in Jesus and what he had done, I like everyone else still struggle between the right and wrong, and that is ultimately where the battles take place, not angels in heaven, not between God and the Devil... almost like in Constantine, not so much the bet for all of humanities souls, but the influence part... notices once the bible was written, God stopped talking to people, and if he does, we dismiss it at heresy, they are crackpots, and so on... so all we have is our sense of right and wrong, our influence to ultimately guide us, and from there is where we ultimately end up.
fear not, I don't think you've led me from redemption, but given me a new perspective on how to discuss religion or religious topics with people.
Sorry, two's company, and three's an adult movie.
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