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What I learned from the Prophecy (SPOILERS)

posted 17 years ago by stevefriars
31 replies | jump to latest

An angel can serve God unquestioningly, fight bravely, remain loyal through centuries of war even though he's not sure why he's fighting, risk his own immortality to come to Earth and try and save everyone from total chaos, resist the temptation to switch sides even when staring a hideous death in the face, and then get burned alive, and left in that state for an unspecified length of time before having his heart ripped out. And the revelation later in the film that angels don't have souls strongly suggests that the poor guy doesn't even have an afterlife to look forward to.

I'm still not sure what Gregory Widen was trying to say with this film: That Simon is commendable for his adherence to the side of good when there is nothing in it for him, or that he is a complete mug for the same reason.

Likewise, the emergence of Lucifer as the dominant (and sole surviving) angel character at the end was problematic. Are we meant to view him as being heroic for assisting in Gabriel's defeat even though, by his own admission, he does so for entirely selfish reasons? Gabriel is an unpleasant character, and it's hard not to cheer the person who puts a stop to his plans ("my enemy's enemy is my friend") but the fact that the instrument of Heaven and humanity's deliverance is the Devil himself raises another question: Is the writer showing us that God can use anyone to carry out His plans, no matter how corrupt they are, or is God, in this story, helpless to do anything but step aside and leave it to someone else to save His creation when it comes under threat? The unleashing of God's power at the film's climax would seem to suggest that He is far from impotent, but then why doesn't He just strike Gabriel with lightning in the first place and be done with it?

[–] stephan-128 17 years ago

cause the movie was so much less than the sum of its parts, and made no sense.
just one tiny example: that guy with no eyes falls out the window and is hit by a speeding car that slams the dude into a wall. now, ignoring the guy falling, why the hell was that car on its way to speeding into a wall anyway? Who drives like that?
bonus example: how many times did virginia madsen leave her kids unattended to go talk to some weird adult? my friend and i just watched this movie and it turned into a MST3000 kind of deal. this movie was ridiculous. dont worry about it.

[–] Chyronn 17 years ago

they're all plot points to serve the narrative of the story; to drive it forward. every film does that. why does the hero always come to the sidekick just as he's dying, not 10 minutes too soon or too late? or why when there's a scene involving money does the person ALWAYS give the exact amount with no change given?

[–] stephan-128 16 years ago

thsoe are just movie tendencies, which we'll all forgive. this movie was absurd, i'm sorry.

[–] stevefriars 16 years ago

Lol, you raise some good points, Stephan-128. I do tend to take movies just a little too seriously sometimes but as you point out there were a fair number of plot holes in this one.

[–] stephan-128 16 years ago

well thank you stevefriars...believe me, i love nothing more than a good excuse to take good movies seriously...and there was a lot of talent involved with this one. i saw it 10 years ago when it came out ,and was like "wha?", so last month when it was on again my friend wanted me to give it another chance. but pretty soon he was like "i dont know why i thought this movie was good, its a total mess."
we had some laughs though, thats for sure.

[–] stevefriars 16 years ago

Mmm, there was the small matter of exactly how that evil human soul was supposed to help Gabriel win the war in Heaven in the first place. It wasn't a small plot point by any means, and yet I don't seem to remember any of the characters actually explaining it.
And if the angels didn't have eyes, why did Gabriel and Simon both ...have eyes?
And how exactly did Lucifer's advice help Thomas when he ended up beating Gabriel by just hitting him with a car?
And who were those angels impaled on spikes?
And that scene with Thomas and Simon meeting each other - what crime was Thomas investigating and what exactly was Simon doing in that room.....?

Yes, I see what you mean.

[–] vny109-1 16 years ago

"Mmm, there was the small matter of exactly how that evil human soul was supposed to help Gabriel win the war in Heaven in the first place."

The soul belonged to the most evil person on earth. The general had the blackest soul. I believe that by Gabriel taking this warrior to heaven he was supposed to tilt the war on their favor.

"And if the angels didn't have eyes, why did Gabriel and Simon both ...have eyes?"

Angels have eyes when their walking around like normal humans (like Gabriel and Simon). When they die their eyes go black (or dissapear). We can see this at the end of the movie when Lucifer kills Gabriel. Gabe's eyes go completely dark.

"And how exactly did Lucifer's advice help Thomas when he ended up beating Gabriel by just hitting him with a car?"

Thomas didn't beat Gabriel by just hitting him with the car. The fact that Lucifer was the one who saved the day is ironic and was meant as a twist ending. Something you didn't expect.

"And who were those angels impaled on spikes?"

That was a glimpse of the war in heaven. Remember that angels were killing each other.

"And that scene with Thomas and Simon meeting each other - what crime was Thomas investigating and what exactly was Simon doing in that room.....?"

The eyeless angel attacked Simon in his apartment. Simon threw him out the window and the runaway car rammed into him, killing him. Now obviously people called the police and Thomas came to investigate. He checks out the room since the angel had been thrown from there and finds signs of a struggle.

He also finds a copy of a book he had written. Simon had been reading the book since he knew that Thomas was meant to protect the girl. It was all part of the plan he (or God) had laid out.

I thought this movie was just plain awesome. The only fault I could find was when the car came out of nowhere and crashed into the wall killing the angel. I thought the same thing. "Where the hell did that car come from?". I don't know, maybe it was someone trying to commit suicide.

[–] stevefriars 16 years ago

"The soul belonged to the most evil person on earth. The general had the blackest soul. I believe that by Gabriel taking this warrior to heaven he was supposed to tilt the war on their favor."

I got the "most evil" part, but the film still didn't explain why this tilted the war in the bad angels' favour.

"The eyeless angel attacked Simon in his apartment. Simon threw him out the window and the runaway car rammed into him, killing him. Now obviously people called the police and Thomas came to investigate. He checks out the room since the angel had been thrown from there and finds signs of a struggle. "

I was referring to an earlier scene where Thomas and Simon have a conversation. It was a strange scene that seemed completely detached from the rest of the movie.

[–] jodicobb 16 years ago

""The soul belonged to the most evil person on earth. The general had the blackest soul. I believe that by Gabriel taking this warrior to heaven he was supposed to tilt the war on their favor."

I got the "most evil" part, but the film still didn't explain why this tilted
the war in the bad angels' favour. "

I think the "most evil" part of Hawthorne was maybe NOT the main reason they wanted his soul - it was just a perk. Read the headlines on the clippings as Thomas is going through Hawthorne's chest. Take a good look at the medals on the uniform, as well. "Most evil" or no, Hawthorne was made to be a iron-clad commanding officer, a sharp tactitian, and a laudable strategist. He was a vicious military leader and the angels are at WAR. I think they were after military leadership for their cause. While the angels are individually powerful and brutal, how many assaults in the Bible are acted out by a group of angels working together?

[–] domehardd 16 years ago

When Thomas goes to the morgue about the angel w/ no eyes, they read a bit from the Bible that angel had with him. There were chapters in it that are not in the Bible we have now. Talking about the war the angels are fighting. The doctor guy reads a PROPHECY saying that the only way for one side or the other to win was to get the soul who eats other souls, therefore making them his (the Hawthorne guy was a cannibal, remember?) It explains exactly whats going on, but you have to listen VERY carefully. I thought this was an excellent movie. One of my favorites.

[–] stevefriars 16 years ago

That's a fair point, it's just that the film placed a big emphasis on Hawthorne's evil nature. I agree that you don't get many instances in the Bible of the angels fighting en masse, although I believe there is a battle between the good angels (led by Michael) and the Beast's army in the book of Revelation.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] gluserty 16 years ago

this film was explained thoroughly and accurately on this thread.
if watched carefully, the viewer is basically told by the characters what's going on.
i like this film. they meld religion and faith, native american customs and beliefs, and the korean war and somehow manage to produce a coherent story out of it. not a film for everyone, i suppose, but well told.
for the one poster who wanted one of those "what i learned" joke threads, here's a joke:
1. anytime there's a strange man hanging out in the attic of a school, he isn't a bum, but a wounded angel.

[–] uncleosbert 15 years ago

amen

1. anytime there's a strange man hanging out in the attic of a school, he isn't a bum, but a wounded angel.
2. souls are transmitted orally
3. math is the key to the universe

[–] pas_si_simple 16 years ago

There are a lot of bad, evil, cruel, war-mongering people on earth why do they need Hawthorne specifically?

This movie had so many plot holes and was really nonsensical to be honest. There were a lot of plot holes and logical leaps. This is a film that really should be re-written and produced again, because it's an interesting concept but not executed well even w/ it's pretty cool cast and some great scenes.

Plotholes/poor narrative that really annoyed me:
Why is it that Simon could fly to Arizona (strongly suggested b/c it wasn't featured that he hitched out to AZ...and how hard would that be to have a shot of Eric Stoltz getting out of a car at that bluff overlooking the town) but Gabriel needs a living-dead driver to get anywhere?

If the living-bordering-death people can still be killed why don't they "really" kill themselves period (esp the guy who already committed suicide--so the prospect of hell wouldn't matter to him)?

Why do they, the Devil included, say to Gabriel that it's time for him to go home when if he dies that's the end of his existence because he has no soul to begin with...!

Honestly, Elias Koetas' character should've been given some kind of in-depth monologue explaining the mythologies of angels as humans as he understands the situation when him and the teacher are trying to figure out what to do. ...because the most evil war criminal knowing about angels needing their hearts to be ripped out was kind of confusing (e.g. how did this Hawthorne guy know so much about angels? was he killing angels or a tool of war for god in the war w/ the "chinamen"? wtf?)

The scenes with the angels' wars could be elaborated and explained better early on period.

I'unno....... like I said this thing just needs to be rewritten and remade because the story deserves it... especially keeping with the realist/object manner in which it's told (relying as much on dialogue and acting as it does on special effects or action).

[–] alfa3647 15 years ago

There are a lot of bad, evil, cruel, war-mongering people on earth why do they need Hawthorne specifically?

Because his treachery was beyond what any of the wicked angels could muster. He was supposed to be very clever.

This movie had so many plot holes and was really nonsensical to be honest.

Just say you werent paying any attention.

There were a lot of plot holes and logical leaps. This is a film that really should be re-written and produced again, because it's an interesting concept but not executed well even w/ it's pretty cool cast and some great scenes.

Not many plotholes....if any.

Plotholes/poor narrative that really annoyed me:
Why is it that Simon could fly to Arizona (strongly suggested b/c it wasn't featured that he hitched out to AZ...and how hard would that be to have a shot of Eric Stoltz getting out of a car at that bluff overlooking the town) but Gabriel needs a living-dead driver to get anywhere?

Well seemingly, whenever any angel transubstantiated (became flesh), they'd fly down from the skys. Once they were flesh, they were under the laws of gravity...to an extent. Small feats of levitating could still be demonstrated when they hopped up onto chairs and balanced impossibly.

If the living-bordering-death people can still be killed why don't they "really" kill themselves period (esp the guy who already committed suicide--so the prospect of hell wouldn't matter to him)?

They didnt know they could still be killed after Gabriel "saved" them.

Why do they, the Devil included, say to Gabriel that it's time for him to go home when if he dies that's the end of his existence because he has no soul to begin with...!

Angels in this movie are spiritual beings, but not Souls. If they werent, they couldnt be anything before they came to Earth.

Honestly, Elias Koetas' character should've been given some kind of in-depth monologue explaining the mythologies of angels as humans as he understands the situation when him and the teacher are trying to figure out what to do.

No no no, noone needs to explain that in the dialogue of the movie. It is already explained bit by bit, if you pay attention, which you obviously weren't.

...because the most evil war criminal knowing about angels needing their hearts to be ripped out was kind of confusing (e.g. how did this Hawthorne guy know so much about angels? was he killing angels or a tool of war for god in the war w/ the "chinamen"? wtf?)

Mary was possessed and Hawthorne spoke through her from time to time. Why wouldnt he know something about Angels?

The scenes with the angels' wars could be elaborated and explained better early on period.

Nah, just pay more attention next time.

I'unno....... like I said this thing just needs to be rewritten and remade because the story deserves it... especially keeping with the realist/object manner in which it's told (relying as much on dialogue and acting as it does on special effects or action).

No remakes. No CGI. No modern day American Idol type actors. No thanks.

[–] rb43td 15 years ago

"I'unno....... like I said this thing just needs to be rewritten and remade because the story deserves it... especially keeping with the realist/object manner in which it's told (relying as much on dialogue and acting as it does on special effects or action). "

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I, for one, love the movie the way it is and do not feel that it needs to be rewritten or remade.

[–] DP_IL 15 years ago

Did you even watch the movie? It was made very clear that the soul of a man would turn the tide of the second war in Heaven, the one which has been at a stalemate for centuries. That's why the film is called The Prophecy, because it's all about the prophecy that the soul of a human and not an angel would determine the outcome.

Maybe next time, you should try paying attention to a movie instead of making snarky comments. You might actually understand the blatantly obvious plot points.

[–] kaiju0 16 years ago

What I learned most is that the editor of a film is the most important person of all...

but I do still love this movie.

[–] FascistFashion 16 years ago

Damn, I thought that this thread was going to be funny...

[–] Mehki_Girl 15 years ago

Lucifer's sidekick looked a lot like the devil "baby" in Passion of the Christ.

[–] TheEnigmaticRonin 15 years ago

The film was ok, Walken was cool, Mortensen did good eventhough he almost had just a cameo. Now to the point.

For the first 30-40 mins of the film I didn't understand Gabe's character, even people who haven't been through Abrahamic Books, knows that Gaberiel is suppose to be a good guy. So after he kills Simon I was like Gabriel is...a bad guy?, and then he wants that soul from the girl, its not her soul he wants, is the armyguy's soul, so whats the prob?, then lucifer kills Gaberiel and saves the day, what kind of satanists made this film?

The characters were just underdeveloped, specially the protagonist, poor acting, then he says he'll do anything to save the indian girl, it was like ok? then he's hugging madsen for no apperent reason.

My conclusion is, they tried to be creative with the story, and then it just became a mess,

" Look, there's two women fuc*ing a polar bear!" - Fear And Loathing in Las Vegas 1998

[–] Crazyfatcat_2000 15 years ago

To EnigmaticRonin

Ok, if you had been paying attention, all those things are explained in the movie. I'm not going to call you stupid or try to preach all the underlying subtext of this film. But if it would help you to better understand, reply to this post with a list of all you questions and/or problems with it and I will do my best to lay it out for you. I only offer this as a solution so you don't feel like you have to sit through it again in order to pick up all the things you missed.

"Talking is overrated as a means of resolving disputes."

[–] TheEnigmaticRonin 15 years ago

Tnx CrazyFatCat.

Alright I won't talk about the relationship between the protagonist and VMadsen, and all, nothing explained how that devolped, thats for sure.

So now,
Gabriel wants that armyguy's soul, so he can use him against the demons they are fighting in the heaven or something like that, anyhow that's going to end the war, but Simon don't let that happen, why is that?

One of Gabriel's issues are that, God loves humans too much, and don't care about the angels anymore, and that God wouldn't even talk to him, why is that?, is he a fallen angel?

If he's angry at God cause He love humans, and feel that He doesn't care about the angels, then whats the difference between Gabriel and Lucifer?

Then Lucifer appears, and he kills Gabriel. Now that girl with the armyguy's soul is the key to stop the war, why didn't he destroy that soul, or the girl instead.

So my question is, If Gabriel is a bad guy, who has issues with God, who envy Humans, and is doing everything for his own agenda, then why does it have to be Gabriel, why chouldn't they just make him Lucifer?

Thats some of the Qs,
Tnx

" Look, there's two women fuc*ing a polar bear!" - Fear And Loathing in Las Vegas 1998

[–] pinkgothic 15 years ago

Maybe I can answer some of these. :)

1. "Gabriel wants that armyguy's soul, so he can use him against the demons they are fighting in the heaven or something like that, anyhow that's going to end the war, but Simon don't let that happen, why is that?"

Gabriel and Simon are fighting on different sides of the war. Gabriel wants to win heaven for the angels - Simon wants to preserve it as the haven for human souls, where angels are merely the servants.

2. "One of Gabriel's issues are that, God loves humans too much, and don't care about the angels anymore, and that God wouldn't even talk to him, why is that?, is he a fallen angel?"

Pretty much.

That aside, keep in mind Thomas had much the same issue. God stopped talking to him, which hurt him deeply because he couldn't understand it. Katherine tries to cheer Thomas up by suggesting he may nonetheless be part of God's greater plan; but ultimately, the why is never revealed. It is, essentially, a question the movie tries to make its viewers ask themselves - why does God not talk to humans, at large? Is it malevolence/negligence or are we just so self-important (like Gabriel's side of the angel war!) to assume He -should- be talking to us?

(Note: I'm not Christian, but that's the vibe I get from the movie.)

3. "If he's angry at God cause He love humans, and feel that He doesn't care about the angels, then whats the difference between Gabriel and Lucifer?"

Lucifer had no issue with humans, he was just proud, and expelled from heaven for his pride. (That's if I recall correctly.) Gabriel would probably like to see mankind either eradicated or otherwise done away with (God simply ignoring them would be fine with him) - so, really, Gabriel is arguably worse.

The difference is pretty negligible, though, which is part of the reason Lucifer appears toward the end of the movie, since even he recognises that two Lucifers are one Lucifer too many. (Or, well, as he puts it: Two Hells being one Hell too many.)

4. "Then Lucifer appears, and he kills Gabriel. Now that girl with the armyguy's soul is the key to stop the war, why didn't he destroy that soul, or the girl instead."

Because while that soul is the -ideal- soul for Gabriel's purposes, he'd just take the second-best one if that one was destroyed. Destroy Gabriel, though, and you destroy the leader of the rebelling angels, which does far more for the cause in the long run.

Also, the soul was exorcised from the girl's body toward the end of the movie, meaning it was allowed to come to rest. (Though given Lucifer's speech about heaven being closed by the war rages, 'rest' may be the wrong term here - it probably went to hell. Heck, even if heaven wasn't closed, it would probably go to hell, what with the chap being so notoriously evil. ;D) As in, it stopped dwelling on Earth and moved on to the afterlife. It was reasonable of Lucifer to assume the exorcising wouldn't be foiled if he dealt with Gabriel in the meanwhile.

5. "So my question is, If Gabriel is a bad guy, who has issues with God, who envy Humans, and is doing everything for his own agenda, then why does it have to be Gabriel, why chouldn't they just make him Lucifer?"

Lucifer's exiled from heaven, whereas Gabriel is not. In effect, Lucifer can't wage a war in heaven. That battle's long over.

Hope that helps!

[–] TheEnigmaticRonin 15 years ago

Thnx ^_^

" Look, there's two women fuc*ing a polar bear!" - Fear And Loathing in Las Vegas 1998

[–] bluedragon2999 15 years ago

The idea of angels lacking souls is not really new. Man is supposed to be unique because he has a choice, the angels never really did. Even the idea of Lucifer is sort of the odd card out because of why or how he rebelled. Did he do it because he was made that way in the first place to make some cosmic access or did he really have some sort of choice. It seems to me to be a bit more of they have no choice but to follow their own nature until their own ending. This causes a problem when orders from command are cut off, you continue to follow some semblence of what you were told and cannot change directions. Gabriel is not evil really and does not view himself as such but he is not a nice guy at all. So to me the whole thing ends up being along the lines of that choice, for all of the angels power they do not have a choice. Man has a choice, God loved them most and some angels hate them for it. There are several subthemes playing out about hopelessness, redemption and so on for humans and angels over the course of the series.

As to the second point doing good because their is something in it for you does not make it good. If I save a life because their is profit in it for me and that is my only reason than the deed is not really good. If I save the life and later get money for it in some way than the deed was done for noble reasons from the start so is good. Doing something just because there is a pay off is not good, it has to be for its own sake. I think this tried to push that idea. You do it because it is right. You might not know it is right in the end but you do what you can.

The role for Lucifer is actually a very good one in this. He is not really the purity of evil, his great sin is rebelling against God. He is prideful and selfesh and you never know whose side he is on. He is in it for himself. It is more irony that he is in his own personel punishment but in so doing he is the only one still in the loop sort of, or out of it but still with the respect that he had before. Really all of the angels dislike him so it is not like he is even liked that much but his role is about the same, and he saw to it that what he was doing helped him. Even great evil can have heroic acts, it does not make them a good person for the reasons I stated above.

As for God, does he ever take a heavy handed role in things like this? In the Old Testament he seemed to definatly but since then he has sort of backed off. In the mythos of this story he has left things to their own end. The angels turned to their own ends and war among each other again. So he sent them away, they must rely on faith as much as mortals do now. Why would he help them when they behave like children. The angels are tools for the almighty, nothing more. Why does he do nothing, why would you if everything is going according to play the whole time.

I recommend checking out Lucifer comic by Vertigo if you are interested. Its take on Lucifer is very interesting and a very interesting take on God. He cannot help but be and know everything. The bad that happens, the good that happens all just conforms to his well so there is no need to worry. The grand scheme of things is going where he wants it, might screw various people personally but in the end it is for the greater good.

[–] deadbluesky 15 years ago

There are no plot holes at all. If you can't wrap your mind around something doesn't mean it's a plot hole This is a gigantic issue the movie is dealing with and it has a million interpretations. That doesn't mean they are holes are poorly written.

[–] lancedulak 14 years ago

I dont think you understand Christianity much less the movie.

One of the central tenants of christianity is exactly the opposite of your proposal "whats in it for me". The philosophy of christ is basically that you try to be good and righteous because it is the right thing to do. Thus the tiny tiny number of people who according to the bible will actually make it to heaven (hint- its about the number in a medium sized city). Angels were created to serve god. If they rebel then god casts them from his presence. THAT, not fire or pain or death is their punishment. If you watch the other movies you'll note that an angels earthly death isnt the end of his exitence.

Your outlook on life is simplistic. Movies must consist of only shallow black and white characters? Satan is evil and the adversary of god. He did what he did for his own self interest (what was in it for him). If you try actually reading the bible btw you'll note that many or most of his "vehicles" were some pretty vile human beings. Moses was famous for slaughtering entire civilisations down to the last child. Joseph was a slaveowning tyrant etc etc etc.

The ENTIRE idea of gods power isnt that he strikes people with lightning or shows up on yoru streetcorner to beat up the local bully. It is that he is omniscient. To understand that concept it implies that before the beginning of creation god understood all its possible consequences and where it would lead. He understood that Satan would rebel. That he would annihilate Sodom and Gomorrah. He understood everything. That is his power. That is ultimate power.