MovieChat Forums > The Prophecy (1995) Discussion > Thomas Daggett Was An Angel

Thomas Daggett Was An Angel

posted 16 years ago by alfa3647
37 replies | jump to latest

Keyword...WAS.

I can't believe noone on this board caught this fact. I just can't believe it. Thomas Daggett was called a former priest here. That's as far as the insight on this board went with that character. I contend with great confidence that he was an angel that became a man. Why? How? This is why...

1. In the beginning of the movie he has flashbacks about being an angel. The visions pain him because they are personal memories.

2. In the middle of the movie he has more flashbacks in the church. What does Gabriel (Christopher Walken) say to him? He says..."It's unusual, to see someone your age in a church on a week night. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a sign of excellent character. You're not FROM here" (emphasis his).

3. Number 2 above is proof enough, but then Gabriel claims to have known Thomas from before he was on Earth. He says to Thomas "Before you were born, I told you a secret, then I put my finger there and said SHHHH".

4. Lucifer creeps up behind Thomas while Thomas is crouching outdoors. Lucifer asks Thomas "What if an angel, LIKE YOU, didn't understand?"...Bingo! Lucifer is telling Thomas that he fell from Heaven because he lost his faith as a former angel.

The idea that Thomas Daggett WAS an angel is not alien to the Prophecy genre/trilogy. The 3rd movie, Prophecy The Ascent, also starring Christopher Walken, show Gabriel made man. Eventually his purpose on Earth is revealed...

a) to learn to finally respect "monkeys" (Humans) by becoming one.
b) to become the personal tutor and guardian of Danyael, The Word made flesh.

I rest my case.

[–] rb43td 16 years ago

Very interesting take. I can't say that I agree and I can't say I disagree. You make some strong points there. My personal thoughts are that he was not an angel, but looking at it from your point of view I see where you're coming from.

[–] alfa3647 16 years ago

Thanks for the reply. I think more replies will come in as people check this board from time to time.

I respect your opinion. I am still convinced that T Daggett was, in fact, an angel, once upon a time.

And when we consider the strong evidence that T Daggett was an angel, it makes the tale more interesting.

It means that he gravitated towards being a Priest in the first place because he was of Heavenly origin.

It means that when he regained his faith at the end of the movie, that he regained his wings.

It means that he too, like the human Gabriel in Prophecy 3, had to regain his Angelhood by performing as a Guardian Angel on Earth. Gabriel protected Danyael. Thomas protected Mary.

What did he mean in the beginning nararation when he (T Daggett) said "some of us lose our faith because Heaven shows us too much"? Maybe he was referring to his visions of Angelic suffering and came into a crisis of faith when he could'nt reconcile both (ie;Angels and war).

The real question is, ~~~>Which war did Thomas fight in as an Angel? On which side?

Did he fight on Lucifer's side, or Michael/Gabriel/Simon's side in the war against Lucifer?

Or in "the Second War in Heaven" socalled, did he fight on Gabriel's side, or the Good side (led by Michael "the Big Guy" as per The Prophecy 2)?

[–] rb43td 16 years ago

You know, one of the things that I always wondered(and this would kind of correlate to your view point) was at the beginning when Thomas is in the church about to be ordained, and he starts screaming when the visions are going through his head. I've often thought that the Angel they show screaming at the same time does look a lot like Thomas. The first time I watched it I had wondered if it was supposed be Thomas and that they might touch on it later in the movie, but they really didn't.

I agree with you that it probably would have made the story even more interesting. I'd love it if they were to make a new movie that focused on your story idea and allow us to see what happened to Thomas in Heaven to have him sent/banished to Earth. Kinda like a fallen angle story.

If I had to guess I'd say Thomas might have fought on Gabriels side. But that being said it would make it very interesting if he had fought for Lucifer and then redeemed himself by saving Mary and destroying the Dark Soul.

Man, I wish they would make some more of these movies and that they'd be as good as the first. I can't count the number of times I've seen The Prophecy. These kinds of movies have always grabbed my attention. The Prophecy and Constantine are two of my favorites.

[–] alfa3647 16 years ago

Well rb43td, by good fortune I am online 30 minutes behind yourself to reply.

There actually are many more prophecy movies, beyond number three, but none with the original cast. Gregory Widen is a character consultant, but not the writer for the extended series. And like Prophecy 3, these movies are more made for cable or B listers, not Silver Screen showings.

But we can extropolate and speculate. And sometimes the writers/directors peruse IMDb to see what their fans think. Sometimes they even post responses. Sometimes.

When Thomas and Katherine (Virgina Madsen) went into that cave and saw the angelic script turn into a vision, they saw, I believe, Thomas' suffering. The impaled blonde haired angel with the beautiful screams seemed to be an extension of the suffering flashing through Thomas' mind throughout the movie! That was actually Thomas! Then they glanced sideways and saw a whole battlefield in Heaven filled with these impaled birdlike creatures. That was the aftermath of a war. Which war?

Apparently Thomas was "killed" in Heaven and reborn as a man. You notice the black eyes on the impaled blonde haired angel in the cave. In these movies, whenever an angel's eyes turned black it meant they were "killed" somehow.

Now if Thomas was one of these impaled angels and that was his army we saw (ie; the losing team) all impaled and wailing on the wooden spikes, this means the "Good Guys" are the ones who impaled them all.

There is a good chance that Thomas fought on the side of Lucifer against Michael, Gabriel, Simon, and therefore Uziel also, since Uziel was always Gabriel's Lieutenant. A good chance because that cave vision of a war looked like a war that was basically over and done with and the 2nd War in Heaven was on going.

There are so many lessons and truisms in this series/genre that it's hard to count them all. Not as big time as Star Wars but just as deep, maybe even deeper and with even more life lessons.

[–] Maudite 16 years ago

1. they are just visions
2. older people lose faith easier and also would wait to go to church
3. The myth of Gabriel is he watches over babies and the indention between nose and lip was from his finger as he whispered shhh!
4. Lucifer say's to Thomas, "Little Tommy Daggett. How I loved listening to your sweet prayers. Then you would hop into bed, afraid that I was hiding under it. And I was!" Implying he was born a mortal birth and not an angelic one.

I believe Thomas was to be a prophet, but lost faith from the horrible visions given unto him.

Maudite Uzziel: The man, the myth, the legend

[–] alfa3647 16 years ago

Fine maud, but when Gabriel says to Thomas "You're not FROM here!", what did he mean by that? Or was his emphasis and innuendo just teasing and taunting? Where did Gabriel think Thomas was FROM (emphasis Gabriel's)?

[–] Maudite 16 years ago

I don't know, might be implying that the fight is not his. That he dosen't know what is actually going on. Kind of belittling him

Maudite Uzziel: The man, the myth, the legend

[–] alfa3647 16 years ago

LOL, I don't think so.

Thomas Daggett was an Angel, once upon a time.

[–] Maudite 16 years ago

I don't see it that way, but if you want to go for it. I'll rewatch it and look for more evidence for both sides. Ummm, just watched it and that scene takes place in a town TOMMY IS NOT FROM. Watch it again, he drives to the small town. Meets up with that chick and so on... "You're not from here" (i.e. this town). It's before he even knew Gabe's an Angel. Sorry Thomas was never an Angel, but if you don't see it that way, whatever. oh, Gabe later goes on and talks to the children and he know's their names, guess they were all angels too?

edit: Why dosen't Thomas remember being an Angel? In the 3rd one Gabriel tells people he was once an Angel. Also Why would a fallen angel (Angel Against God)go into the priesthood? Was his mind wiped? why? Why would a good Angel seek the help of a fallen angel? Where is Thomas' angelic symbol? Why does Lucy remember his prayers to God? Lucy calling Thomas an "angel" could just be his humour. Has anyone called you an angel? Are you an Angel?

Sorry if I sound like a jerk, it's just the way I am.

Maudite Uzziel: The man, the myth, the legend

[–] alfa3647 16 years ago

one good question there:

"Where is Thomas' angelic symbol?"

The answer is in the 3rd and 2nd movie. When Gabriel became Man, he lost his "tattoo". (2nd movie when Michael touched his neck)

When Gabriel regained his "wings", the mark came back. (3rd movie after Pyriel was defeated)

Now, LOL, if Gabriel telling Thomas, "you're not FROM here" means to you that Gabriel waas referring to the town, fine. So be it. You have you're own opinions. You're more than entitled to that. However, that makes no sense to me. This because Gabriel was referring to Thomas' pious character as the symptom of the reality that Thomas was from elsewhere.

What does good or bad character have to do with what TOWN Thomas is from?

Are you saying that Gabriel was telling Thomas that they both were in a "bad neighborhood" and that Thomas was "better" than the usual riffraff in the area?

I respect your opinion...but that is an absurdity.

[–] Maudite 16 years ago

MEH! You're reading too much into it. The conversation started as small talk.
And you didn't answer my other questions.

Maudite Uzziel: The man, the myth, the legend

[–] rb43td 15 years ago

Yeah, the "you're not from here" part always did confuse me a bit. The whole quote is "it's unusual...to see someone your age in a church on a week night. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a sign of excellent character. You're not from here." I always wondered....what does the fact that he's not from Chimney Rock have to do with anything and why would they put that in the movie. So I did wonder now and then if he was refering to something else besides Chimney Rock but it just never got explored or was left on the cutting room floor. I then read the shooting draft and realized there were actually lines and scenes in the shooting draft that were left out of the final movie. Jerry was actually supposed to be in the church too during that point. Here's the actual scene per the shooting draft:

INT. THE TOWN CHURCH

Small, simple, and woodplanked. The church we saw at the
beginning. Thomas sits there, staring at the candles, the
altar, the crucifix.

He's alone there. But for a creeping buzz. A feeling in the
air.

GABRIEL'S VOICE
It's unusual to see someone of your
age in church on a weekday.

Thomas turns in surprise. Gabriel is kneeling in the row
behind, inches from his ear.

GABRIEL
Don't get me wrong. I think it's an
excellent sign of character.

There's something cold and creepy about Gabriel. Out of place
in here. There's another sound. Teeth chattering far in the
back. Thomas turns and sees Jerry, deep in the shadows of
the choir box. Jerry waves.

GABRIEL
Never mind him. He shouldn't even be
in here. Least not standing.

Those sunglasses. Impenetrably dark. Like at the skid row
flophouse.

GABRIEL
You're not from here.

DAGGETT
Either are you.

GABRIEL
I'm looking for something.

DAGGETT
Have you found it?

GABRIEL
I will. Have you found what you're
looking for?

DAGGETT
I will.

GABRIEL
(appraising him)
I don't doubt it.
(stands)
You'll let me know? When you find
it?

DAGGETT
Where are you staying?

GABRIEL
I'm around.

And he walks out, leaving Thomas alone in a place gone
suddenly cold.

With all that said, can you believe it's been almost 14 years since this movie came out? It just doesn't seem like it's been that long. I'm 33 now and it's hard for me to comprehend that I first saw it when I was 19. Crazy. One of the few movie I can truly watch over and over without getting sick of it.

[–] BobFlame 14 years ago

Yeah and when Lucifer said " What if An Angel , just like you , didn`t understand ? " , he was asking Thomas what would happen if An Angel were to lose faith as Thomas had , NOT implying that Thomas WAS An Angel !

[–] BigRich 9 years ago

Yeah and when Lucifer said " What if An Angel , just like you , didn`t understand ? " , he was asking Thomas what would happen if An Angel were to lose faith as Thomas had , NOT implying that Thomas WAS An Angel!

This ^^^

OP totally misinterpreted what was said.

_
Every person that served can be called a veteran, but not every veteran can be called a Marine.

[–] poochiewoochie 10 years ago

No he wasn't. When Gabriel said he wasn't from there he meant he wasn't from Chimney Rock where they were at.

As for the rest of your reasons, I disagree-Maude pretty much explains it.

[–] rlbatesiii 10 years ago

Gabriel meant Thomas wasn't from Arizona.

[–] Mehki_Girl 15 years ago

You are right. Near the end when he and Gabriel are fighting/talking. He says I know what it is to lose you faith. I believe that meant, he lost his and fell to earth. They do seem to know each other, if you pay attention to the dialogue.

[–] alfa3647 15 years ago

Thank you pauliek. This is not subjective. This really is just an objective observation. There's no reason for these lines to be in the movie unless Thomas Dagett was once of an Angelic nature.

and rb4, that draft is too awesome! How did you come by that? By the way, the draft script itself does not disprove my proposition here. As a matter of fact, that version of the script is even more suspicious.

"You're not from here"

"Neither are you"

[–] rb43td 15 years ago

Yep, I agree. Even with that it leaves it very open to interpretation. I just thought if you hadn't read the shooting draft you might be interested in the entire scene that was originally intended. I actually like the movie version of the scene better than what was in the draft. The draft kind of just leaves it with no real confrontation and mystery between Gabriel and Thomas while the movie has the parts where Gabriel and Thomas stand up and look into each others eyes and then the part with the dent in the lips and all. This is one of my fav scenes of the movie.

I found the shooting draft on the net, but I'm not really sure where. It's been awhile. It might have been on Script-O-Rama. I have it in a Word document. I can email it to you if you like. There is so much more to the story than we got to see in the movie.

[–] alfa3647 15 years ago

Sure thing. This is an even better idea. Although I have no problem whatsoever PMing you my email, but since this is sort of a fan page for the Prophecy, it's best that you post the link here, if you come by anything.

Just put the link between [ url] and [ / url], as I'm sure you probably already know.

[–] rb43td 15 years ago

Found it. Enjoy!

http://www.weeklyscript.com/Prophecy,%20The.txt

[–] alfa3647 15 years ago

Oh, we will! Thanks so much rb4.

[–] alfa3647 15 years ago

I finished reading the whole thing rb4. Had Gregorian chanting playing in the background. Gloria Laus Est Honor on MP3. Gloria is one of the pieces featured in the movie. Mary and her class were singing it I believe. Added serious Theological import to the experience. Script good as a book.

Thanks again!

The screen play's Lucifer was more of a jokester wasn't he. Just wanted the war to go on and on because an end to war would open up Heaven. He didnt have the same goals as Viggo Mortensen's Lucifer.

The war in the screenplay had a different flashpoint, didnt it. It wasn't Gabriel being the leader of angels upset about God making Man his right hand. It was Gabriel being the leader of angels upset that God required them to worship his Son who at one point or another was flesh and blood ("I will NOT allow, any, talking monkey to take my place, I'll burn down Heaven to stop it" - was Gabriel's reference to Jesus/Danyael). The screenplay debate was whether the Son was entitled to the same respect as the Father. The Nicene Council and the Good Angels decided that The Son was indeed "The Splendor of The Father"...in Roman Catholic parlance. The Bad Angels decided that only God the father deserved respect, but that since he stopped speaking to them that they should just rule the Universe according to their own terms/guidance.

Fascinating Theological discourse in the screenplay.

I begun to believe that when Gabriel complained to Simon..

"Noone believes in The Word anymore, no one",

...that God actually stopped speaking directly to Gabriel because God actually wanted Gabriel and the others to begin to listen to his Son instead. Except they couldnt because they never accepted the Son. God never cut Gabriel off. God merely changed the mode of communication. The Son was somehow elevated to God's spokesman to the Angelic Host. They lost faith in God and The Word (The Son) because the Son was hidden from all while taking birth on Earth by means of the Angel Danyael, and God made him his sole Spokesman. While the Word/Son was taking birth, there was less communication between God and Angels and some of the Angels became confused.

In the third Prophecy franchise, Gabriel says something like...

"Now for the first time in a gazillion years, I get to know what it is, I get to know what that message is"

Ie; He could only hear God through the Son and not directly any longer. So to cure his pain of jealously and estrangement from God he had to open up to the Son and listen.

Maybe I read to much into it all, but these are the logical implications.

[–] lancedulak 14 years ago

Youre just flat out wrong.

1. When you go to a very small town and someone says to you "you're not from here". You believe that is evidence of your angelic origin?

2. one of Daggetts best lines

Thomas Daggett: I have my soul. I have my faith. What do you have, angel? ...

Angels dont have souls.(in the movie).

3. Walken was cast down and made human. But he never lost his memory.

4. In the sequels Daggett suffers a very very un-angelic fate.

4. Dagget writes the "new book". In christian mythology human prophets record "the bible".

5. An angel wouldnt be overwhelmed by the visions. They would be a normal thing. These are beings thousands of years old minimum who fought in the original war.
And what he saw on the wall wasnt in his mind. He wasnt the only one to see it.

Its fun to speculate and nothing wrong with it but saying your idea is objective fact is ridiculous. Especially considering it flies in the face of the movies entire mythology.

Daggett was a prophet. That was his role. I think deep down he knew it too and didnt particularly like it. He joined the church to make sense of what he saw and understood. But imho he wasnt supposed to be a part of the church. I believe that part was taken from the origins of Revelations which were written basically by a random whackjob living in a cave who thought the church of the time (which was very harsh compared to modern christianity) was too "lax".

[–] denise1234 12 years ago

lancedulak^

Agreed!

I do think it *would* have been cool and more interesting if Thomas had been an Angel, but I don't think he was one in this movie.

He does have a soul (major stumbling block there); I think the 'you're not from here' references not being from the town; Lucifer querying Thomas about losing faith I think was not about how Thomas felt losing faith as an Angel, but appealing to Thomas' own loss of faith (as a human) and how he felt about that in order to show him the 'weapon' Thomas could use against G.

I think Thomas was a prophet, and was having visions and a crisis of faith.

11/16/12: The day the Twinkie died :(

[–] fzaynoun 15 years ago

i dont care

[–] rb43td 15 years ago

and yet you come on the board to post on something you don't care about. interesting.

[–] SeijakuShin 15 years ago

When posessed Mary tells Thomas you have to cut their hearts out, s/he says something along the lines of "They're not like you and me, you have to cut their hearts out"
That's better proof that Thomas is human than "You're not from around here" is to his supposed angelic origins.

I really don't think Thomas was an angel because there's no proof, in order to sit down and say so you have to think of ways it happened, it's like you're filling in missing points because you want it to support your point of view, we all know this is infact bad science.
The truth of the matter is that if Thomas were an angel, then gabriel would have tried awakening him and recruitting him to the cause, not calling him a monkey.

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Crevan1986 15 years ago

I believe that Thomas was a pious human, however I'd like to refute your fourth point.

You say that "...What if an angel, LIKE YOU, didn't understand..?" should be interpreted into What if an angel, like you.., thereby implying that Thomas is an angel. While interesting, I believe the emphasis pertains to the second half of the sentence.

Imagine it was phrased differently thus: "Imagine an angel didn't understand, just like you don't."

See what I mean?

I am a leaf on the wind - watch how I soar.

[–] spacemanz 15 years ago

seijaku this is critical analysis of art, therefore scientific process dosn't necesarily apply

art is always subjective and open to interpretation

i like your idea alfa, definately worthy reading of the subtext

i have to repute your 3rd point tho, as gabriel was describing how humans got the cleft between our nose and top lip.

according to scipture, man was molded from clay, and before we "set" gabriel did his thing, leaving a permanent mark on us

[–] jnericsonx 15 years ago

Crevan is right in that point, in the statement is meant that what if a angel, like you-a human, didn't understand his faith anymore.

[–] BobFlame 14 years ago

Interesting theory but when Lucifer said " What if An Angel , just like you , didn`t understand ? " , he meant what if An Angel were to lose faith as Thomas did , NOT that Thomas WAS An Angel !

[–] MSStMarie 12 years ago

I never thought about this, but I totally agree now that you pointed it out.

---------
Aagh; you're a HEDGE!

[–] thecultofhorror 11 years ago

The ending of the film discredits your theory. It is a cool theory but I think you are reading into to a bit much.

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