That was the one part of the movie that made me cringe the most. Claudia had nothing to apologize for and yet she did to smooth things over. Joanne wants to be the victim because she feels it's the only way to justify her feelings of inadequacy and it puts her in the center of attention.
shareI thought it showed great character on Claudia's part. She was being the bigger person and Joanne still wouldn't let up and retorted with cruelty. As much as I dislike her character (though I absolutely love Cynthia Stevenson) it's easy to see why she has the perspective she does. In her eyes she has this huge burden of being the self-induced caregiver to her parents while her brother and sister live their 'exotic little lives' elsewhere. She's just full to the brim with bitter resentment.
"Living our maggot lives, dreaming of becoming flies."
JOANNE: "Even if I just met you on the street and you gave me your phone number ... I'd throw it away. [Joanne climbs up on treadmill] Do you mind? This is the one thing I do all day that I like."
I would've slapped her.
"FRA-GEE-LAY. That must be Italian!"
"I think that says 'fragile', honey."
That was definitely the salt to the wound.....she couldn't have just said, o.k., I'm just stressed because I'm taking care of mom and dad all the time?
shareI fail to see how she is taking care of her parents. And her unacceptance of Tommy is unforgivable.
shareAgreed.....there are fully competent and taking care of themselves. She wants to feel like she is doing all the work. When she says "I know people in Boston" uh, that was horrible.
shareJoanne is obviously conflicted and possibly regretful of her decision to become a stay-at-home mom/wife. She is jealous of her siblings' "glamorous" lives (as she imagines them to be) and uses the whole martyr thing to try and make herself feel better. Doesn't work, obviously! No - Henry & Adele don't need her to look after them. She won't ever be happy unless she comes to terms with and accepts the choices that she has made.
As for her treatment of Tommy...I can only agree with Claudia: what a dick!
Yeah, she is a dick.
shareThat's one of my favorite lines: "Joanne. What a dick."
In that scene in the basement of Joanne's house, I lose my anger at her and just feel a kind of nauseous pity.
You can see that things for Joanne is worst after she got kids, by seeing the flashs of the past at the end of the movie. She looks so greedy and envious about the liberty Claudia and Tom have now to be far but i really dont understand why she says that she's looking after her parents, she cant even eat the turkey her mom had made, i think its a lot of disrespect to have another turkey because its her turkey and her side of family have to eat only her turkey, this is so pathetic..
I just cant stand her non-openminded about his own brother and.. i really hate the way that her own daughter is manipulating her ('Mom, i'm bored can we go now', 'if i got a stain on my dress i'm telling you')and i'm really despise her daughter, what a little egocentric princess.
I feel they really need to be patient with Joanne. Claudia & Tommy need to spend more time with her and make her feel like she is really part of the family and not just a "product of baboon lovin"
I'm still laughing - Joanne is so damaged, nothing is going to fix her for many years to come. Joanne has the martyr complex and wouldn't apoligize to any one even if her life depended on it. I think we're related because I have a few of these in my family. "Always Right", Control Freaks that bring their own turkey to thanksgiving dinner. BEt you she is from Connecticut.
Macklin Crew
..."product of baboon lovin" ... HA!! Okay so maybe that was a little over the top.
You make a good point though, Macklin - there are 8 siblings on my in-law side, and even in middle age they have little clique-type behavior and make little digs to hurt each other. Joanne is probably jealous of the comfortable, loving relationship that Claudia & Tommy share, which might contribute to how judgmental she is of them. The family dynamics in this movie are so realistic, maybe that's why it's so fun to watch over and over. Just this year I noticed the painting of Tommy hanging on the wall that Claudia painted - a big, prominent portrait of the only son... made me pay more attention to how Adele and Henry each deal with Tommy being gay in their own way (I've got the gay brother-in-law, as well) - it's both funny and sad that Adele's technique seems to be humming loudly whenever the subject comes up! :)
I think her behavior is typical middle child behavior
The first born is always favored a little bit more than the others
The last born is always the baby, therefore favored
the middle born is not ignored,but lets say passed over in consideration
I am not specialist, but am a middle child
second son followed bt 2 sisters
I'd rather go hunting with Dick Cheney, than driving with Ted Kennedy
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Joanne is a great character - you almost hate her, but you (SLIGHTLY, ok?) see where she is coming from. She has assigned herself the role as caregiver to her parents, and clings to this role because it is all she has in the family. It is easier to bitch about her siblings' "glamorous" (and by this she means irresponsible and immature) lives than face up to the facts that they are responsible adults with children and/or loving relationships, AND still managed to move away and live lives outside of their small town. It takes effort and time and understanding to get to know people that Joanne obviously is not willing to give. Also, getting to know her siblings (and parents) as good, kind, functional people means that she would not get the satisfaction of judging and looking down on everyone as not as good as she and her middle-America family.
Let's face it: Tommy can be obnoxious, even to those he genuinely cares about. And he really did "start it" on Thanksgiving by attacking Joanne's car from the very beginning - he's making the preemptive strike. Things only go downhill from there. With Claudia, it's a different story: she's only too willing to get along with Joanne and be polite, but Joanne isn't having that, either. Early on, she makes the crack about how her dress isn't something that Claudia would ever be caught dead in, but she likes it.
Claudia and Tommy clearly have a close relationship with one another and with their parents, which seems to burn Joanna even more. She doesn't get that her own nasty attitude due to her glaring insecurities is what really keeps them all from getting along.
I have many family members (and former friends) that remind me of Joanne. In a lot of movies, people like her "learn" something and "grow as a person," but in reality, most nasty people don't change. That's what I love about this movie: it doesn't pander to people who want to see it all "work out" in the end. Claudia still says goodbye to her aging parents, who she loves very much. She returns to Chicago without a job. She doesn't know if her new romance will come to anything. She doesn't work things out with her sister. But there is a glimmer of hope in her life, and that is what matters.
JOANNE: "Even if I just met you on the street and you gave me your phone number ... I'd throw it away. [Joanne climbs up on treadmill] Do you mind? This is the one thing I do all day that I like."
It was really sad to hear Joanne saying she wouldn't even talk to her own sister on the street. It is sad.
shareI think Joanne was bullied by Tommy/Claudia alot while she was growing up. And the parents just tended to blow the situation off. I mean one was the family baby and the other the talented eldest. Joanne was stuck in the middle with no allies. So a lot of anger grew inside her over the years because of the past.
But she did go over the line about stating that she would throw away Claudia's phone number. They both knew it too, because both them were on the verge of crying.
Whether or not Joanne was "bullied" by her siblings as a child, this would only explain her behavior, not excuse it; as adults, we are responsible for our behavior, regardless of the behavior of those around us.
shareYes, even if she had been bullied (which I saw no evidence of, especially not from Claudia), she started out the whole day with a nasty attitude and saying snide things about Claudia and Tommy being "the ones who can do no wrong because THEY got away" right in front of them. Claudia tells her, "Joanne, I'm hearing this," and Joanne replies, "I don't care." How did she THINK this would come off? It's passive-aggressive and childish, and Claudia takes the high road, not letting herself be goaded into a fight.
If we see any kind of pattern playing out between the siblings, it's one of Joanne and Tommy being at each others' throats, and Claudia being the peacemaker, while feeling more loyal to Tommy, who she has a real relationship with.
What did Tommy do to her and her family for practically the whole damn film?
He knows she is high strung and breaks into hysterical outbursts. But instead of just ignoring her stupid comments (like Claudia) he sets out to torture her on one of the few days of the year his parents get the whole family together. He couldn't control himself a bit?
That is what I mean by bullying. And Claudia does nothing to stop it. Sometimes eggs him on. The parents should step up more to calm things down as well.
Anyway its obvious the whole family is bonkers. But Joanne is not solely the bad guy.
I agree with you kaskait. Tommy was an annoying, immature instigator. He picked on Joanne before she even got out of the car.
I felt sorry for Joanne. Not that that would excuse her behavior. Her last line about throwing her sister's number away was hateful.
Bullied? I dunno... I didn't see anything in Tommy and Claudia's behaviour, to each other or to Joanne, that I haven't seen with my own brother and sister. The difference is that none of us take any of that stuff seriously, whereas Joanne clearly does. It's sad, but if she just laughed instead of yelled, everyone would have a good time and no feelings would be hurt.
"The only straight I am is straight-up bitch!"
They may not bully her outwardly as grownups, but the way they are with each other leaves her clearly on the outside. It is difficult to feel left out, and those feelings from childhood often follow us into adulthood.
I see the same pecking order in siblings as they grow up that they had when children. If you happened to be the one left out, you may never really leave that role.
Not only are Claudia and Tommy close, they both moved away and have what Joanne sees as "glamorous" lives. She is the one living in the old home town, raising her kids, and taking care of the parents.
Her comment was beyond the pale, but if you really know her, it's easy to see where it came from. The way she says she would treat Claudia is the way she feels she has been treated.
"I can't sit down. These aren't my pants."
I do think Joanne was stuck up, but I felt she was left out by her siblings.
shareI don't think she was left out, per se. She dislodge herself from them with her growing resentment of them. She has an annoying daughter; whereas, Claudia has a loving daughter. She has a controlling husband; whereas, Claudia divorced hers. Joanne cannot change her life immediately in the manner than her sister can. She's jealous. That's the wedge that she has to remove. Claudia and Tommy are moving on from that "train of drama" that Joanne insists on riding.
I must warn you. I'm very susceptible to flattery.
Very nicely put, Stranded.... Coming from a large family with many siblings I have seen this happening. Many of us went and did our own thing, as we all were encouraged to do. A few stayed behind and played the martyr.... It was the same in my husband's family.
Someone here said that the whole family was bonkers. I don't see that. Over the years each family develops their own dynamics It's natural! Two people get married and they develop their own relationship and how to live with each other. They become parents and they deal with each child in different ways because each child is different. Put them all together at the Thanksgiving table as adults and you will see and hear the tension and I can see it seeming "bonkers".... The truth is that it's normal. Is anyone's family get together during the holidays perfect?
I feel that this whole family is very true to life. They are like any other family who do not always see each other every day....
As Claudia says, "We're all getting older"
Parents don't always get that. It's natural because we will always be parents to our children.
I felt a kinship to each of the siblings. I could understand each one and where they were coming from.... even Joanne.
Claudia was the one who stated the truth. I can't remember her exact words but what it all comes down to is that you may be family but that doesn't mean that you have to like each other.
"Fasten your seat belts!
It's going to be a bumpy night!"
You hit it right on the nail. I adore this family because my family's like this, even down to the wacky aunt and siblings. That makes this movie so special. You can relate to its honesty.
I must warn you. I'm very susceptible to flattery.
I must say that although Joanne was by far my least favorite character, Cynthia Stevenson portrayed the role of the middle sibling caught in the midst of a very dysfunctional family rather well. I felt little to no sympathy for her character due to the arrogant and egocentric way in which she treated her siblings for various reasons. Anyone that comes from a dysfunctional family of any kind can certainly relate. Jealousy and resentment are clearly the reasons for her behavior, as she even conveys when she says that Claudia and Tommy "got away." The lowest point is when she says she would throw away Claudia's number if they met on the street and Claudia gave it to her. I have to admit if I were Claudia, I would have retorted, "I would never do that to you." Claudia wanted to be the peacemaker, and Joanne wanted nothing to do with her or Tommy. You can tell both were somewhat hurt but Claudia was genuine whereas Joanne was not in my opinion.
In my opinion, Joanne may at worst fit the profile of a pathological liar and at best have an impaired conscience. Not sure about husband Walter, but he is no doubt part of the problem and the kids are no better. Brittany is a little diva, and the younger one is just a tool. Just imagine if you tried to get along with your siblings and they yell at you, swear at you, and hang up on you when and if you call. Or they feel inferior to you so they mask it by acting superior because you "intimidate" them so they look for things they don't like about you and use them against you. Plus they feel that they must be the "caretakers" of their parents. But when all is said and done, it may be best to have nothing to do with them if the feeling is mutual.
But with all of this being said, this is what makes "Home for the Holidays" a true and hilarious slice of life for the holidays and even any time of year!
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As many other posters here have commented, one of the things that makes this film so great and refreshing is the realism of the complex relationships between family members. I think we are purposely led to dislike Joanne's character through most of the film, in particular when she says such hurtful things to Tommy, but then that last scene between Joanne and Claudia gives a bit more insight into their relationship, and it illicited greater sympathy for Joanne from me.
I know she plays the martyr card and is a busy-body, but, nevertheless, she IS the one taking care of her parents as they age, while her siblings are able to pursue their careers and "lives" more freely. Sure, their parents are mostly still ok right now, but, as anyone who has taken care of aging parents knows, these changes tend to be gradual and one child usually DOES end up taking on more of the burden, often simply due to physical proximity.
We can see that Claudia is favored and encouraged to pursue her independent dreams -- her mother praises her artistic ability and her father recounts how fearless she was as a child. Her parents' expectations of her create their own type of burden on her, but there would naturally be jealousy on Joanne's part. So Joanne could easily start to take on the identity of being the one "who takes care of everything". Such dynamics between parents and children and siblings start early, becoming very deeply rooted, and it's exactly these sorts of things that make familial relationships so complex. Noone is wholy right or wrong.
I think Joanne knows she has been wrong/immature/spiteful to say she'd throw away her sister's number, etc. -- that's why she is crying after Claudia leaves. On the other hand, she clearly has years of stored-up bitterness and resentment and I think Claudia saying that their parents are "just getting old" is a pretty over-simplified and easy-way-out view. I think Joanne's right when she responds with, "Oh, that's just great!"
I also think the audience's responses to different characters in the film has much to do with their own family roles/dynamics, which is another brilliant aspect of this film!
Great observation I must say! I especially agree with your last sentence about understanding or feeling for or against certain characters based on one's own family situations.
shareAlso, I would not be so against someone like Joanne and her feelings if not for the arrogant, mean, and petty WAY she and those like her convey those feelings!
shareI always felt the greatness of this movie, was the realism of it. You have to remember that we only see a small fraction of their lives. I've always felt a bit of sympathy towards Joanne, because despite her bitchyness, I've always figured there is a reason for it. We don't know how she was treated as a child or her adulthood up until this point. We don't know what happened off screen up until this point.
Tommy was my favorite character, but he knew he was stirring the pot. He didn't immediately start attacking them the second they pulled into the driveway to make his nephew laugh, he did it because he knew it would rile up his sister and he knew it would set the tone for the afternoon. To many of us the incident in the driveway wouldn't bother us at all, but he knew it would bother Joanne and her uptight husband, He pushed and pushed until she lost it and hit directly below the belt. Childish of her not to just let it go? Of course. However I don't think many REAL family gatherings have adults that are perfectly behaved.
Joanne is obviously NOT the type of person you joke with, or maybe it's just her family can't.
She's my second to least favorite character (her husband was the first) but I reserve total judgement because i've known families where on the surface, the children that seem to be praised the most by the parents, are praised because the parents feel they have to praise their every move, strictly for their benefit. For example, I know a family where the adult eldest child moved back in with his mother and father to help them pay bills and take care of them. His younger brother is a constant screw up, stealing money from the parents and then lying to them, claiming they just forgot they said he could borrow it. Plus going from job to job and using his father's connections to land a job he might hold two months. Yet, he is the one praised constantly by the parents. "Oh, Jon just landed a great job, he's just doing great", "Oh Jon just got his___ color belt in Karate" (Karate paid for by his parents without their knowledge, as my friend tried to point out to them on their online banking. They refused to believe it though).
So let's say we have a Thanksgiving dinner with this family. Jon comes over, life of the party, eats, drinks, makes his parents and other relatives laugh. His brother, who really does all the work just glares bitterly at him, thinking what a snake he is. Maybe making a negative comment or two because he can't hold it in. HE then looks like the jerk, not the actual jerk.
Of course i'm not saying that Claudia and Tommy are like this, not at all. I'm just saying we see one Thanksgiving meal with this family, we don't really know their history.