I don't get it, how did Cleon go from "guy who cuts and saves someones head as a souvenir for good luck" to "guy who freezes up during a heist and rats his friends out"?
his sudden change of character never made sense to me, especially to that extreme.
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After watching this yesterday, I'm thinking that there had to be a lot left on the cutting room floor, unless the script was just that under-developed. There wasn't character development for any of the characters. If I didn't already know about post-traumatic stress disorder and drug abuse in returning vets or socio-economic stratifications along racial lines, I'd have been really confused as to the motivations of any of these characters. Sure, you can make certain assumptions about the knowledge of your audience, but the whole point of the film couldn't have been: nice guy goes to vietnam, returns home to economic disparity, robs bank, goes to prison, the end? I could've saved myself two hours and just read the synopsis on netflix. I haven't read the book, but I think I might because it HAS to be more interesting and engaging than this film.
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Cleon did not save the head. Cleon was Anthony's brother who had previously done a tour of Vietnam. Cleon became a preacher after serving and ratted Anthony out.
shareI beg to differ. The character 'Cleon' (Bokeem Woodbine, who was also in the dark comedy The Big Hit with Mark Wahlberg and Lou Diamond Phillips) was one in the same. I don't think or recall if he was ever was related to Anthony, but he did indeed snitch on him and Kirby in the end. And who had some sort of spiritual epiphany and who became a preacher after the war. To this point he certainly was the one who saved the head of the dead Viet Cong soldier in a dittybag for days, and for good luck, and to the point that it disgusted every member of his unit.
IMO, Skip played by Chris Tucker was cast into this part/movie for some smidgen of comedy relief, and this was exhibited when he expressed his own disgust to Cleon over carrying around the decomposing head of the Viet Cong soldier, by snapping, "F%&k you, man. It stinks like a sack full of a&&h0les." As well as when he was walking Anthony back home after the war, telling him that he had a form of STD, and then yells to someone across the street, telling him, "that he'll be by later to see his sister." However the ending and his role in it was anything but comedic.
I liked the movie and many of the characters in it - From Keith David to Terrence Howard, to Clifton Powell and to my surprise Martin Sheen, who I see went un-credited in this one. And not so much for the shock value either, but in identifying with the plot of growing up in the city, what war can do to the fragility of the human spirit, as well as certain social & cultural values that were in-play and well portrayed in this period film.
And of course this movie isn't for everyone. But that's just me.
- DominicD
"Always make the audience suffer as much as possible." -- Alfred Hitchcock
No, Cleon wasn't related to Anthony. Remember early on we saw Anthony had an older brother who was going to college. He met Cleon in that recon unit where him and Skippy and Jose were.
I always figured Cleon to be one of those born again characters who suddenly gets religion and that changes everything for them. So he went from hardened killer to preacher.
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I also suspect Cleon got off easy compared to everyone else. Delilah, Skippy and Jose were dead. Anthony got 15 to life and probably a few years added on for his outburst which included the chair throwing. Kirby doubtlessly received an equally long sentence or possibly longer. However, because he turned states evidence, Cleon probably received a (compared to Kirby and Anthony anyway) lighter sentence and after getting out probably went back to preaching and including a few sermons about how crime doesn't pay.
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Cleon was the son of a preacher. They said so several times during the Vietnam scenes.
After the war, he apparently followed in his father's footsteps and became a Pastor.
http://formspring.me/JayDeezy229
It was still extreme though; the becoming born again factor happened very quickly. And IMO these born-again types always tend to edge back into their old ways... I would have preferred if Cleon had stayed as hardcore as in the Vietnam scenes, because he's the sort of guy you'd want on your side in a fight...
shareI also suspect Cleon got off easy compared to everyone else. Delilah, Skippy and Jose were dead. Anthony got 15 to life and probably a few years added on for his outburst which included the chair throwing. Kirby doubtlessly received an equally long sentence or possibly longer. However, because he turned states evidence, Cleon probably received a (compared to Kirby and Anthony anyway) lighter sentence and after getting out probably went back to preaching and including a few sermons about how crime doesn't pay.
"As well as when he was walking Anthony back home after the war, telling him that he had a form of STD, and then yells to someone across the street, telling him, "that he'll be by later to see his sister." However the ending and his role in it was anything but comedic. "
Agent Orange -- Skip wasn't talking about an STD--he mentioned other soldiers were having odd problems too. He was referring to Agent Orange; at the time everyone didn't know about the effects it would have on the soldiers.
Agent Orange -- Skip wasn't talking about an STD--he mentioned other soldiers were having odd problems too. He was referring to Agent Orange; at the time everyone didn't know about the effects it would have on the soldiers.Presumably that was the inference in the screenplay, however he stated that was receiving VA disability 'benefits' (50%), and presumably for "Agent Orange?" and presumably based on a diagnosis from a military, or even a civilian doctor, or scientist?
You present a pretty good point here.
I imagine either:
a) the writers didn't go -that- deep and were alluding to AO, or
b) since he didn't know it was AO, if he applies for benefits saying "I'm suffering these pains" they may have been granted. If he applied saying "I'm suffering these pains -because of AO-" -->denied.
I'm leaning more towards "a" though. I think you're making a historically accurate point, but the movie isn't going -that- in depth; it's just referencing the period.
Not to be anal retentive, but Tucker didn't say that line about the head stinking, one of the white soldiers did. You're correct on him not being related to Anthony, though- he only meets Cleon in Vietnam and tells Kirby (keith david) about him via a letter.
"Hey, look at that! She's not crazy, she's being chased by a cheetah!"
Cleon was unstable, and you never knew what to expect from him him and it seems like half the time he didn't know himself what he was going to do next.
I mean you really have to wonder about someone who walks around with a severed head because he was envious that the man who got to Nam the same time as him found an officer's belt buckle. Even his sermon "I was a man who maimed. Who killed. Can I get a hallelujah up in this house of God?" would be cause for concern for me especially if I had children present.
When Anthony first made the offer for him to join the heist, he was undecided but his love for money finally prevailed. During the actual robbery, he was undecided about whether he was going to be an active participant. After the robbery when they were counting the money, he was undecided about whether he wanted his cut. Those were all danger signs that he might be the weak link in the chain.
I can understand why Anthony trusted him because he had to trust him with his life in Nam. However, if they had ever gotten captured by the enemy, I really think you would need to watch your back around Cleon.
As soon as they heard Cleon had bought a new Cadillac and was handing out $100 bills talking about God gave them to him, they need to go snatch him up right then. Put down the pool stick and head out the door. I'm not saying they should have killed him like Kirby suggested, but he clearly needed a very firm "talking to" so he could collect himself and act like he had some sense.
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I'm wondering the exact same thing. It is hard to believe (at least for a movie) that a complete psycho during the Vietnam War would come back as a preacher, act as a coward, and rat his friends out after a heist. However, I will note that before Cleon squealed, he told the gang that he had done many bad things in his life, and being part of the heist was the greatest insult he made against God. So, he had a guilty conscience in being part of this and talked to the cops. As someone else mentioned on the board, a lot was most likely left on the cutting room floor.
share"being part of the heist was the greatest insult he made against God. So, he had a guilty conscience in being part of this and talked to the cops"
I'd say that his motives were far less noble than that.He talked to the cops to save his own ass as much as possible.
This character never made sense to me.One minute hes a total badass carrying around a severed head,then he becomes a man of god,then he turns to to crime again,and despite being a Vietnam veteran he's about as useful to the operation as a 6 year old girl would be.If the film had gone on longer he probably would have had a sex change,joined the circus or something ridiculous like that.
Cleon's character was always conflicted. He was a loose cannon, someone whose actions were unpredictable, and one that couldn't be trusted to stay on one course. His actions in the end were consistent with who he was thru the whole movie. Even in 'Nam, he would speak religion while killing, cut a head off to one-up Dugan's discovery of the belt buckle, and seem to be moving to his own drumbeat at all times. And so, when he was recruited to take part in the robbery, he was that same person: religious and money-hungry, hesitant to do anything but quick to chastise Skip for acting, claiming he didn't want the money but took it and spent it frivolously. Then he gets arrested and being who he was, tried to play hardball for a brief moment but ultimately ratted for his own benefit. He was just the wrong one to bring into the fold, because he was erratic and out for himself by any means.
-D!
Cleon Ya lying sack of Sh@!