A food of thought


Stanislav Petrov, colonel of the Soviet Air Defence Forces faced a similar decision.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident

If all the people in-charge of the world nuclear arsenals were anything like Capt.Ramsey, we would already have a nuclear war for sure. It would have been inevitable.

A lunatic who doesn't appreciate the apocalyptic consequences of launching nuclear missiles, instead treating it like just another run of the mill order, shouldn't be be in charge of such massive responsibility.

There are many other posts where his 'sir, yes sir' mentality can be better utilized. Launching nuclear missiles isn't one of them.


Guess Henry Kissinger wasn't far off in case of Capt.Ramsey when he said this:
“Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.”


Thankfully, there are intelligent people among them like Petrov and Hunter to keep them in check.






~Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes~

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Guess Henry Kissinger wasn't far off in case of Capt.Ramsey when he said this:
“Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.”


Kissinger was an asshat. And so are you for agreeing.

The typical Military serviceman is of higher intelligence than the typical civilian. What would you say of a 19 year old out servicing Fighter Jets on the deck of a Carrier with multiple lives and millions of dollars in hardware in his responsibility compared to his classmates back home flipping burgers and asking, "you want fries with that?"

And Kissinger was one of the Architects of the disastrous foreign policy that created the Vietnam War... something Most American Military was against but went because that's what our country ordered us to do, but then Kissinger who sent us... also tied our hands and prevented us from winning.

The US military did not Lose Vietnam. Kissinger and his cronies in Washington lost it for us. We just did the dying.

So frak you and your insulting comment that you support.

https://connoruky.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/mime-attachment.jpg

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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Kissinger was an asshat. And so are you for agreeing.

The typical Military serviceman is of higher intelligence than the typical civilian. What would you say of a 19 year old out servicing Fighter Jets on the deck of a Carrier with multiple lives and millions of dollars in hardware in his responsibility compared to his classmates back home flipping burgers and asking, "you want fries with that?"



I wasn't agreeing with him but stating the fact that military men like the captain do. There are also quite intelligent people in military like the Soviet nukes operator who probably saved billions of lives. Neither I was talking about 'American Military' specifically but military in general. US isn't the only country with nukes.

You on other hand just reinforced his point, again.




As for my view of the American military, its more close to General Smedley Butler's.
http://www.amazon.com/War-Racket-Antiwar-Americas-Decorated/dp/0922915865

Quote from the book:
I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.




So while I agree that they are 'pawns' I don't agree that they are all dumb. Some are intelligent enough to know that they aren't 'saving lives' when carpet bombing villages in third world countries.









~Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes~

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I want to sincerely thank you for that insight into the way the extreme leftist mind operates. That is the true fulfillment of the promise of your thread title, although the preferred way to say it is "food for thought".

By the way, I think many people misinterpret the positions of Ramsey and Hunter in this movie. The discussion in the Officer's Mess early on is a misdirection. In the actual conflict that arises, Hunter's approach is one of meticulously and blindly following orders - he just wants to follow the most current orders, and he's not really trying to assume the role of deciding for the NCA. He recognizes that he is not in a position to appraise the global situation minute-by-minute.

Ramsey is the one who over-thinks the situation and at times seems to put himself in the position of evaluating the need to launch. In other words, once the sub becomes unable to receive new orders, he still presses on based on his own interpretation of the situation on the ground. "They're fueling their missiles!" he bellows, although in truth he only knows that they were fueling the missiles. Ramsey is the one focused on the "Why" rather than just execution of orders.






"Morbius, something is approaching from the southwest. It is now quite close."

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I want to sincerely thank you for that insight into the way the extreme leftist mind operates. That is the true fulfillment of the promise of your thread title, although the preferred way to say it is "food for thought".



Sorry, but I don't have dumb sheep mentality to be categorized in one group. I am anti-gun control and Obamacare. So again, cheap tactics and name calling don't work with me (from either side).


As for the rest of your futile attempt on explaining their actions, sorry but you have totally missed the mark. Even though it has been very long time since I watched the movie, I still remember pretty well the reasons behind Hunter's actions. Since he went into great lenghts to explain to his fellow comrades why he was going against the launch. If they weren't nuclear missiles that insured deaths of millions of American lives in retaliation, he wouldn't have gone so decisively against his Captain. He thought it was their job to make absolutely sure that nuclear missiles have been launched against United States. The ultimatum of "They are fueling their missiles" didn't work cuz they weren't the only US nuclear sub-marine who would have been given orders.


They both even acknowledged their roles:

Capt. Ramsey: You do qualify your remarks. If someone asked me if we should bomb Japan, a simple "Yes." By all means sir, drop that *beep* twice! I don't mean to suggest that you're indecisive, Mr Hunter. Not at all. Just, uh... complicated. 'course, that's the way the Navy wants you. Me, they wanted simple.

Hunter: Well, you certainly fooled them, sir.

Capt. Ramsey: [chuckles] Be careful there, Mr Hunter. It's all I've got to rely on, being a simple-minded son of a bitch. Rickover gave me my command, a checklist, a target and a button to push. All I gotta know is how to push it, they tell me when. They seem to want you to know why.

Hunter: I would hope they'd want us all to know why, sir.




The problem with Capt. Ramsey was that he just didn't appreciate the gravity of launching nuclear missiles. His mind was fixed up on carrying the order.

When Reagan was briefed by the SIOP for first time,he wrote this in his diary:

One of the first statistics I saw was the most sobering.. startling I ever heard. I never forget it. The Pentagon said that at least 150 million American lives will be lost in a nuclear war with Soviet Union, even if we won. And there are still some people in the Pentagon who claim that nuclear war is winnable. I thought they were crazy.




From another source:

"The Pentagon said at least 150 million American lives would be lost in a nuclear war with the Soviet Union — even if we 'won.' For Americans who survived such a war, I couldn't imagine what life would be like. The planet would be so poisoned the 'survivors' would have no place to live. Even if a nuclear war did not mean the extinction of mankind, it would certainly mean the end of civilization as we knew it. No one could 'win' a nuclear war. Yet as long as nuclear weapons were in existence, there would always be risks they would be used, and once the first nuclear weapon was unleashed, who knew where it would end? My dream, then, became a world free of nuclear weapons.... For the eight years I was president I never let my dream of a nuclear-free world fade from my mind."


Autobiography, An American Life by Ronald Reagan


Hunter clearly understood this. I remember something like when Captain tells him: "God help you if you are wrong" he replies "Well if I am wrong, then God help us all".

Imagine the end of the world civilization by the hands of a Captain who thought he was just taking part in some dick measuring contest.




~Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes~

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Clearly you are lost in the far left fantasy and not grounded in reality.

It is obvious you have no real world experience with the Men and Women of the US Military. if you had, you would never have uttered such absolute bullsh!t.

Your "Agreeing with Butler", clearly indicates you are shopping for quotes of those views that fit your already preconceived and limited leftist worldview, rather than looking for facts.



I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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What a load of BS.

'Shopping for quotes' lol. He was the most decorated marine and a highly respected general who saw more action than you ever will. Who do you want me to quote? You? Do you have more experience than him? Do you decide which wars to fight? Why would I care what some grunt thinks down the chain?

All I see from you is rubbish name calling. Save your cheap tactics for someone else. I only engage in grown-up academic debates.








~Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes~

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You wouldn't know a grown up debate if it bit you in the ass.

I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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You wouldn't know a grown up debate if it bit you in the ass.



Grown up remarks like these? Guess I really wouldn't know then 




~Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes~

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