Could Something Like This Really Happen?
Awesome movie!
When the captain was interviewing the new XO and he said "it was a short list" was that kinda sorta a subtle insult?
Awesome movie!
When the captain was interviewing the new XO and he said "it was a short list" was that kinda sorta a subtle insult?
Awesome movie!I agree that it's an awesome movie (exciting, thought compelling, and well executed).
Could Something Like This Really Happen?The short answer is NO.
When the captain was interviewing the new XO and he said "it was a short list" was that kinda sorta a subtle insult?It was kind of intended as a snarky joke. The Captain was reading off Hunter's file and pseudo complimented him when he said his name was at the "top" of the selection list of XO candidates. After Hunter says "thank you", the Captain then goes on the say "it was a short list", indicating that Hunter being the best available at the time isn't really saying all that much. Basically, he was just being a dick for no reason. But as I previously indicated, that whole scenario is completely unrealistic.
First off, You are absolutely correct in that the situation would never happen and the film takes a lot of liberties and falsehoods regardling Naval procedures.
That being said, your post is as filled with innacuracies as the movie is. lol.
For starters... it is just XO. Not EXO as you repeatedly made a point of.
You stated your background was in Military communications, yet no one who was ever in the Navy would ever refer to the XO as the EXO, So I would like to ask for you to expand upon your Military communications background if you will. R/T guy in the Army? what? You were not a Navy RM (Radioman) for sure.
1) CO hiring and hand picking the XO.
Nope. Not the way you claim it. The CO does have some say in it and can reject an XO that he cannot work with or Trust. But he does not hand pick the XO or hire the XO, nor is the ship going to Not sail if the CO does not pick one. The ship WILL sail, and with an XO. The CO will just have to put up with who he has until transfers can be made.
2) Broken Radio.
Yes we do have multiple redundant radios You are correct on that score. But unlike a surface warship, a Submarine has a limited number of antenna housings. Also while we swap between different redundant radios of the same type, you cannot simply swith between different types as you have suggested. Different radio bands are used for different reasons. What may work for VHF may not be suitable for UHF. Ranges, atmospherics, radio horizon and curvature of the Earth. Satcomms.
Nor can ELF be used in place of the others just like they can. ELF transmissions can take several minutes to send a single character and teying to use it to send a regular radio message is impossible due to it's extremely low bandwidth.
ELF transmissions then, are generally going to be 3-letter code groups to give basic but vital info. Most often it is used only as a "bell ringer" to fet the sub's attention and the code group merely instructs them to come shallow and establish more direct comms for a following detailed message.
3) Threatening to shoot Weps or the Petty Officer for the 2 launch keys.
You have completely misinterpreted that scene. It is not the two keys he was trying to get at. He has his key and the XO has his key.
What was needing unlocking by Weps was the Tactical firing trigger.
seen here:
https://flic.kr/p/NmD14G
Your discription of the events is just... completely wrong and misinterpreted.
4) The mutiny.
I can find no fault there except to say the entire thing would never happen to begin with because even the CO would use the time between launch rediness ro attemot to confirm an order cut off. He would not follow an order cut off as it is not valid, but it could be a valid message cut off and he would use the time availble to try to confirm. Which is all the XO was wanting to do.
But more to the point, the entire basis of the plot is a plot hole because as you pointed out... A nuclear launch is an absolutely last resort. And because of that, the order is only ever going to be given if there is never going to be any changing of minds. Thus there is no rescinding a nuclear launch order. No cancelling once given. That's it. It's done. The President must be 100% sure it has to be done BEFORE giving the order because there is no take backs.
Other than that... Spot on.
I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!
For starters... it is just XO. Not EXO as you repeatedly made a point of. You stated your background was in Military communications, yet no one who was ever in the Navy would ever refer to the XO as the EXO, So I would like to ask for you to expand upon your Military communications background if you will. R/T guy in the Army? what? You were not a Navy RM (Radioman) for sure.I stand corrected. I'm Air Force, my dad was Navy.
1) CO hiring and hand picking the XO.My dad was an enlisted sub mariner (attack subs) in the 70s. He tells it differently, so I guess I have a conflicting account. But you've probably been in more recent than him. Are you a submariner by any chance?
Nope. Not the way you claim it. The CO does have some say in it and can reject an XO that he cannot work with or Trust. But he does not hand pick the XO or hire the XO, nor is the ship going to Not sail if the CO does not pick one. The ship WILL sail, and with an XO. The CO will just have to put up with who he has until transfers can be made.
2) Broken Radio.I'm aware of that, and I wasn't suggesting that you could swap to a different radio band in the same circumstance. Merely that you've got multiple types AND multiple redundancies of those radio types.
Yes we do have multiple redundant radios You are correct on that score. But unlike a surface warship, a Submarine has a limited number of antenna housings. Also while we swap between different redundant radios of the same type, you cannot simply swith between different types as you have suggested. Different radio bands are used for different reasons.
What may work for VHF may not be suitable for UHF.UHF and VHF radios are pretty comparable in most circumstances. They are both LOS radios with similar ranges, and many features (voice encryption, guard channel) is shared between them (though on different frequencies). UHF is a higher bandwidth and probably has more capabilities with respect to digital transmission, SATCOM, etc. But for the most part, they can do the same thing. Although in this particular instance (submarine submerged) they both have the same limitation.
Nor can ELF be used in place of the others just like they can. ELF transmissions can take several minutes to send a single character and teying to use it to send a regular radio message is impossible due to it's extremely low bandwidth.Again, I wasn't suggesting that they use the ELF in exactly the same way as a UHF radio. My point was that they had multiple options available to them other than what was depicted in the film. The success of failure of their ability to receive a message was not limited to a radioman fixing ONE radio receiver.
ELF transmissions then, are generally going to be 3-letter code groups to give basic but vital info. Most often it is used only as a "bell ringer" to fet the sub's attention and the code group merely instructs them to come shallow and establish more direct comms for a following detailed message.
3) Threatening to shoot Weps or the Petty Officer for the 2 launch keys.You're right, it's been a while since I've seen the movie. As you are describing it back to me, I remember that now. However, I find it extremely difficult to believe that the weapons officer would be the only person on board to know the combination to the tactical firing trigger. I also believe there was a scene in which the captain ordered the "XO" to give him "the missile key" (implying there was only one). Correct me if I'm wrong.
You have completely misinterpreted that scene. It is not the two keys he was trying to get at. He has his key and the XO has his key.
What was needing unlocking by Weps was the Tactical firing trigger.
4) The mutiny.I agree. The movie attempts to explain this away (from the CO's perspective) as it being too dangerous to go shallow and reestablish communications because there was an Akula attack sub hunting them. I think that's BS personally, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief on account of the CO being "crazy" and it being a just a movie.
I can find no fault there except to say the entire thing would never happen to begin with because even the CO would use the time between launch rediness ro attemot to confirm an order cut off. He would not follow an order cut off as it is not valid, but it could be a valid message cut off and he would use the time availble to try to confirm. Which is all the XO was wanting to do.
But more to the point, the entire basis of the plot is a plot hole because as you pointed out... A nuclear launch is an absolutely last resort. And because of that, the order is only ever going to be given if there is never going to be any changing of minds. Thus there is no rescinding a nuclear launch order. No cancelling once given. That's it. It's done. The President must be 100% sure it has to be done BEFORE giving the order because there is no take backs.Exactly!
Other than that... Spot on.
I also believe there was a scene in which the captain ordered the "XO" to give him "the missile key" (implying there was only one). Correct me if I'm wrong.
I agree. The movie attempts to explain this away (from the CO's perspective) as it being too dangerous to go shallow and reestablish communications because there was an Akula attack sub hunting them. I think that's BS personallyIt is BS. The CO is well aware of the sub's capabilities and is fully aware of the comm buoy. He would not have needed convincing by the XO to do so.
My dad was an enlisted sub mariner (attack subs) in the 70s. He tells it differently, so I guess I have a conflicting account. But you've probably been in more recent than him. Are you a submariner by any chance?
The captain had his key. He was demanding the XO give his key. The CO needed both. There was no implicationnthat there was only a single key, that is your misinterpretationCopy. So I guess that's one thing the film got right then. Like I said, it's been a while since I've seen it so I was going off memory. But I plan on watching it again this weekend.
An Officer is assigned to the vessel as XO. XO being a position grooming the Officer for command of his own. Generally replacing the CO when the CO moves on to a new command. The CO does not pick or hire him.Gotcha. AF works slightly differently. The Commander has very little input at all who his Deputy Commander will be. (we don't have XOs). And the Deputy does not become the Unit Commander when the Commander gets a new assignment. A new Commander is assigned to replace him. If the Deputy Commander gets promoted, he will get a new assignment as Commander of a different unit.
Gotcha. AF works slightly differently. The Commander has very little input at all who his Deputy Commander will be. (we don't have XOs). And the Deputy does not become the Unit Commander when the Commander gets a new assignment. A new Commander is assigned to replace him. If the Deputy Commander gets promoted, he will get a new assignment as Commander of a different unit.