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I think Dr Cocteau was worse than Simon Phoenix

posted 10 years ago by OptimumTaurus
14 replies | jump to latest

Phoenix is evil. No argument there at all. But Cocteau wanted to strip people of their free will. Even Phoenix himself thinks this is wrong.

Phoenix is an evil who knows he is evil. He may be a killing, villanous, foul human being, but he's at least honest about how terrible he is. He has no delusions that what he does makes the world better.

Cocteau really believed he was doing the world a service.

To steal from The Dark Knight, Phoenix is just a mad dog. Cocteau let him off the leash.

Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment. -Michael Corleone

[–] gpapa1998-24-961204 9 years ago

They are both equally evil. If Cocteau had his way all individual freedom would become history. If Phoenix had his way, you would be afraid to go out fearing for your life. I mean Phoenix killed 30 people just to frame Spartan. So I wouldn't want Phoenix's world but I wouldn't want Cocteau's world either. They are both equally evil.

[–] alioth4 9 years ago

Yeah, I'd say neither are very friendly to individual human rights.

Understanding is a three-edged sword.

[–] gpapa1998-24-961204 9 years ago

If either Phoenix or Cocteau had his way it would be a hell on earth. There is no lesser of two evils in that case. I wouldn't vote for either of them.

[–] demolition18 9 years ago

Raymond Cocteau sacrificed freedom for safety. No such thing as that. Simon Phoenix wanted to bring terror back in the city like after springing 6 cryocons and once he took the place of Raymond Cocteau spring the rest of the prisoners of the cryo-prison.

Dr. Cocteau created a kill free society but didn't leave people with individual freedom. He could've had Edgar Friendly under arrest and placed in the cryo-prison but instead used old criminals in attempts to kill him accusing him of terrorism.

The first thing said by Chief Earle after John Spartan exited the cryo-prison is asking about Simon Phoenix apprehended knowing he's behind the murder of Dr. Cocteau. People are clearly assuming that one of those who threw his dead body in the fire and the Jesse Ventura character who did the work for Simon Phoenix in killing Raymond Cocteau eliminated after never seen again by the cryo-prison blown up.

[–] Kuato_and_George 9 years ago

Phoenix is faaarrrr worse. He killed dozens long before Cocteau released him.

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[–] mercury4 9 years ago

I think Cocteau was naïve and too much of a dreamer. He was a dreamer in thinking his new society would work and he was very naïve to think he had a psycho like Phoenix under control.

[–] OptimumTaurus 9 years ago

Evil is not a toy.

Also thanks for all the replies, I can most certainly understand the viewpoints that

1) they are equally evil, just for different reasons

or

2) Phoenix was more evil

Both are totally legit views and I appreciate the explanations. Also, I suppose part of the reason why I consider Cocteau so much worse had to do with how Phoenix explained in the novelization his views more. The movie alluded to Phoenix hating Cocteau's fascist behavior, and but the book actually spells this out and Phoenix has Cocteau killed for that as much as just about anything.

Cocteau had Bob CASTRATED to limit his aspirations. Phoenix is a bad, evil human being, but he even though Cocteau took it too far and briefly pledged to help Bob feel like a human being after Cocteau had basically dehumanized him.

I consider Phoenix the other side of the John Spartan coin. He's almost exactly what Spartan would be if Spartan was a bad person.

I guess I'm coming from the perspective that I really value freedom. I don't think Phoenix should have had the freedom to kill and steal and torture and maim, but Cocteau's obsessive squelching of personal freedoms on a wide scale made me much angrier than Phoenix going around killing. That probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense but that's how I felt.

Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment. -Michael Corleone

[–] ipacac22 9 years ago

but Cocteau's obsessive squelching of personal freedoms on a wide scale made me much angrier than Phoenix going around killing. That probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense but that's how I felt.

It makes perfect sense. Phoenix is a violent remorseless killer. This is established from the beginning of the movie. You know what to expect from him. Cocteau on the other hand is a totalitarian of the highest caliber. He cares about one thing and one thing only, eliminating Edgar Friendly to achieve his "utopia." He programs Phoenix to this end meanwhile putting the city he supposedly cares about in jeopardy for his own selfish means. He's a liar, hypocrite, and it was poetic justice in the way he was killed.

Utah! Get me two.

[–] OptimumTaurus 9 years ago

I got a whole lot more satisfaction out of Cocteau being killed. Especially the way it was done.

Thanks to all, I think I have a better understanding of the themes in this movie as a whole after this thread. 😀

Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment. -Michael Corleone

[–] OptimumTaurus 9 years ago

From the book:

Phoenix: Why the hell did you follow that guy around, anyway?
Associate Bob: Well, sir, you see, he had me... castrated.
Phoenix: S***! He took your balls?!
Bob: Yes, sir. To limit any aspirations of power I might have.
Phoenix: Well, don't you worry, man, I'm gonna get you some new ones.

I kind of wish this exchange had happened in the movie, too. No, I don't think Phoenix is a good person, but it does explain that he at least values, on some level, free will.

Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment. -Michael Corleone

[–] davidjanuzbrown 9 years ago

There is no doubt that the Doctor was worse then Phoenix. At least Phoenix admitted to being a bad guy Cocteau set himself as God. Stuff like sex was banned, same for music except commercial jingles. Cocteau was about control and anything or anyone ( see Friendly, Edgar) who was even a minute threat just be crushed.

[–] DarklordRB 9 years ago

I don't think Phoenix being honest about being evil and disagreeing with Cocteau earns him any redemption points. Phoenix was still a bastard of the worst kind. He wanted to release people like Jeffrey Dahmer on to the streets when he was defrosting all the cryo-cons. He's a mad dog alright, but one that wanted to let even more mad dogs go wild.

[–] OptimumTaurus 8 years ago

Phoenix is most certainly an irredeemable monster.

I dunno, maybe I like Phoenix better because Phoenix would probably be fun to party with.

Never hate your enemies. It affects your judgment. -Michael Corleone

[–] DarklordRB 8 years ago

Well, I did like his speech that he was giving to his henchmen underground about bringing back the good old days by robing, and pillaging.