MovieChat Forums > Twin Peaks: Fire Walk with Me (1992) Discussion > Messages get lost in the mythology

Messages get lost in the mythology



When people post these long, manic explanations of the logistics of the Black Lodge (which are fun, don't get me wrong), I think people sometimes miss out on the simple symbolic context of all this.

This film seems like a nightmare of Laura Palmer's. Who was molested and murdered by her father, not a literal spirit named Bob.

Lost Highway showed us the "mind of a psychopath" (Lynch called it something like that), this film feels like a metaphorical rationalization for a young woman's decent into darkness; aka, cocaine abuse.

Maybe all the Black Lodge really shows us are projections of Laura's psyche. The creepy father who caused repressed memories (Leland/Bob), the boy who is like a monkey who wants to sort of help (Bobby/monkey/kid), the helpless mother (old woman from BL), etc. All representing the reasons she ended up becoming a junkie who went to extremely low places before she died before her time.

Agent Cooper's "possession" and "psychic connection" seem to be symbolic of his growing understanding of the forces that cause such horrible actions, that lead the people of this small town into a cycle of madness under the veneer of a quiet, innocent community. And learning all of this town's secrets, particularly the shady characters surrounding Laura's death, drove Cooper insane.

This whole "evil doppleganger dweller on the threshold" babble sounds like trying to make too much like trying to literalize a pretty simple metaphor in the end about mankind's evil nature. And a simple story about how her father's sins caused his daughter's, with Leland being a familiar at One Eyed Jack's before Laura. Mike screaming at Leland/"Bob", he was screaming because he knew what Leland was up to. The "ring" was the cycle of addiction. Seems to be this is the real story: cocaine = evil.



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"Maybe all the Black Lodge really shows us are projections of Laura's psyche."

*** - problem is other characters are privy to the Lodge that aren't "connected" to the psychic circle - Sheriff Truman in the series finale, for instance, clearly witnesses Coop going through the red curtains. Other characters - Donna, for instance, encounter Black Lodge characters and there is no evidence she or any of the others have a switched-on psyche ala Coop or Laura.
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"cocaine = evil"

***well, OK, but seems a bit boring, really. I understand where you're going by wanting us to take a step back and see the Big Picture in terms of symbology and mythology, but I do think Lynch's imagination takes us into realms too extraordinarily complicated to be left as pure cocaine-fueled psychic projections. The whole thing about the garmonbozia feud, etc - there are simply too many characters involved. Now, I like your theory, the idea that this is entirely a projection of Laura's, who may in turn be cued in to similarly "switched on" psyches, and therefore her death sends a ripple effect through the town and causes all the chain reactions of behavior on a purely subconscious level, etc. But I think there is enough to suggest that the Lodge is an actual, real place independent of Laura - Truman, Albert, the Major, and Coop have that very important conversation following Leland's demise in the series that addresses this very issue.

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OK - if "The Lodge is an actual real place" - where is it?

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Under the sycamore trees...

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I agree that these elaborate analyses of Twin Peaks are unnecessary, when the point of all of these elements is to induce a certain response from the audience - to make them feel the chaos and terror that defines Laura's world. Which is why these elements don't really have any logical explanations. The point of surrealism is to make you feel a certain way.

But...

Seems to be this is the real story: cocaine = evil.


No. Just no.

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"Maybe all the Black Lodge really shows us are projections of Laura's psyche."

*** - problem is other characters are privy to the Lodge that aren't "connected" to the psychic circle - Sheriff Truman in the series finale, for instance, clearly witnesses Coop going through the red curtains. Other characters - Donna, for instance, encounter Black Lodge characters and there is no evidence she or any of the others have a switched-on psyche ala Coop or Laura.


Very true, however I think the OP has a point. The Black Lodge showed projections of Laura's psyche, to warn her of her fears which played a part in her death. Cooper had a similar experience in the Black Lodge in the series finale, when he was faced with warnings regarding his fears and Killer Bob.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not.

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This is actually my problem with the entire Twin Peaks story and mythology. With some creative editing to both the series and this film, all of the Black Lodge / backwards-talking dwarf / demonic possession stuff could be read as an elaborate metaphor for the presence of evil in the world, and our reaction to it. Laura's rape and murder at the hands of her father is a crime too horrible to comprehend, so we're assaulted with lots of abstract Black Lodge imagery that is equally senseless and horrifying.

The problem is that time and again the TV series asks us to take this mythology at face value (i.e., we are both shown and told that BOB really is a demonic creature capable of possessing humans, that Leland really had limited free will, that the Black Lodge really does physically exist, that beings from this other realm can intervene in human events, and more generally that there's not much subjective about any of this).

I think your reading of the film is absolutely accurate -- this should be read as a bizarre art film about the horrors of incest, and not as a dark fantasy story. But unfortunately, this movie came out too late to rescue the mythology from itself, as the series had already left little doubt about the literal existence of many of these elements. There are just too many points where the supernatural drives the story forward for this all to be going on in Laura and Cooper's heads.

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That was my initial problem with the movie when I first saw it. Oddly enough, this aspect didn't bother me as much on the series or if it did, it was more subconscious. But when I saw the film the reality of Laura's situation was too heavy for me to accept the paranormal aspects of the story anymore. They seemed frivolous in comparison (and they had been my favorite parts of the series!).

Over time I've come to reconcile myself to the mythology a bit more. As you say, Lynch is in a bit of a bind because of the route the show went. He HATES being trapped but he also abides by what's come before. Rather than try to throw stuff out, he reinvents it (think how when refashioning Mulholland Drive into a feature he tweaked a few things but mostly left the TV pilot intact). So in the movie the treatment of the Lodge is very different from the show. The spirits are no longer "out there" in the woods haunting us, they are intermingled with everyday reality (this is probably why Lynch scraps the owls, and replaces them with electricity as the conduit of the spirit world).

And while on the show the spirits seemed to completely control their hosts, in the film we get a much more ambiguous presentation of the relationship. Leland clearly knows what he's done to Laura (no matter what he says in his confession scene on the show) and the spirits seem to respond to human situations, almost as if they are summoned (think how the Tremonds arrive after Laura realizes someone has been in her diary or the one-armed man confronts Leland after he has the flashback of Laura & Ronette in the motel room). This is one reason people read the film as a metaphorical psychodrama (which, incidentally, it is, even if within the world of the film the spirits are real). It is the spirits who generally respond to human events rather than vice-versa.

I think it's also helpful to look at Fire Walk With Me in the context of Lynch's later films: the Mystery Man and the creature behind the diner are real within the worlds of the film but there is no attempt to position them in some kind of understandable relationship with the "real" world. They are abstractions given human form - which is also how Lynch described Bob in an interview with Chris Rodley.

The mythological element of Fire Walk With Me is challenging and at times frustrating, to be sure, but I think it ultimately also has a lot to offer.

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My favorite part of this movie is the way it wrestles the character of Leland back from the horrible choices they made during Leland's death episode on the show. In particular, Leland's chilling final line to Laura during the murder scene -- "I always thought you knew it was me!" That line leaves absolutely no room for interpretation: Leland has always been in there, choosing to drug his wife so he can rape his daughter, choosing to murder her in the train car, and he has always been aware of what he's done even when BOB isn't directly influencing his actions. And that makes me think that BOB has a lot less influence on his hosts than we had previously thought.

Lynch had been working at this before, by having the Leland doppleganger giggle and say "I didn't kill anyone" in the Black Lodge. I think we're on the same page that this story has no resonance if Leland was somehow an innocent bystander, and really did tearfully repent on his deathbed after realizing what he'd done. But FWWM seems to retcon Leland's death sequence, effectively arguing that when Leland was dying and appeared to only then remember killing Laura, that was all an act meant to fvck with Cooper. That clearly wasn't the original intention of the scene, just going by the way the sequence progresses and the music cues and the way all of the cops and FBI agents seem to make peace with the "demon possession" angle. But "I always thought you knew it was me!" is Leland talking, not BOB, and it implies total awareness, and even reflection, at all times of Leland's life.

I think the only way to reconcile this apparent disconnect is your suggestion that while the fantasy elements of this story are "real" within the characters' reality, they are also metaphorical projections of the characters' inner lives. I would argue that most Lynch movies don't really work this way, and that the more surreal elements are instead usually straight psychodrama. While, for example, the Mystery Man does interact with other people at the party in Lost Highway, this does not seem to "really" happen within the story, because the entire movie is occurring within the Bill Pullman character's inner world. In that inner world, all of his suspicions about his wife are true, he's able to murder every perceived corrupting influence in her life, and he can escape his fate at will. But our narrator is so unreliable that it's difficult to piece together what "really" happened, in some outside realistic movie that we don't get to watch. In fact, I've always thought the film works better if we assume that his wife actually never was involved with pornography and never cheated on him, and it was just an insane delusion over a misunderstanding at the party that led him to murder her. I think the party scene (sans Mystery Man), the impotence scene, and the murder we see on video are the only parts that actually happened as portrayed.

Similarly, the crazier elements of Mulholland Drive seem almost too straightforward, in that they are unambiguously projections of the Naomi Watts' character. Everything from the Hollywood conspiracy to make sure she doesn't get the part, to the rotting guilt behind the diner, is just a representation of Naomi Watts' attempts to come to terms with her actions. The only parts there that "really" happen unfiltered are the scenes shown towards the end after the box is opened.

But Twin Peaks is a strange beast, because it's one of maybe two major works (along with Dune) that Lynch didn't have full creative control over. Whenever he stepped away from the writers room, his collaborators made a far-out fantasy series with owls and oil and astrology and petroglyphs that got further and further away from metaphorical psychodrama. I'm curious to see how they continue the series, given that Lynch will be much more firmly in the drivers' seat with the new episodes.

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Great points.

"I think we're on the same page that this story has no resonance if Leland was somehow an innocent bystander, and really did tearfully repent on his deathbed after realizing what he'd done."

Yes (to the first part - we'll get to the second). Many people have pointed out that this is a very questionable way to deal with incest, but quite apart from that it just isn't as compelling as drama: a conflicted character is going to be more interesting than, as you put it, "an innocent bystander." That's just the nature of narrative.

"But FWWM seems to retcon Leland's death sequence, effectively arguing that when Leland was dying and appeared to only then remember killing Laura, that was all an act meant to fvck with Cooper."

I think Leland was being (somewhat) sincere in that he really, really represses his dark side (which is not necessarily "equivalent" to Bob but rather something that works in cahoots with Bob, much like evil Cooper in the finale). I don't believe the blank memory works the way he says it does, but I also think he's half-convinced himself that it does. Which seems to be the way repression often works - on some level, people know but they have all kind of mental tricks to keep themselves distracted from fully knowing. (Though I'm certainly not a psychiatrist, so I may be wrong about that.) I think you see this clearly when Leland is in the car with Laura and she starts asking him if he was home; he denies it, and when forced to admit it turns on her and says "Where are you?" with the subtext "Don't break the rules of our little game here...this isn't something we talk about." Such a sad moment.

But I don't think Leland is being malicious in the jail cell with Coop (even aside from the fact that, as written at the time, it really needs to be ret-conned to fit in with FWWM). I think he's clinging to that last fragment of delusion that got him through life, even as he has to admit to himself and them that he did, indeed, kill Laura.

"I would argue that most Lynch movies don't really work this way, and that the more surreal elements are instead usually straight psychodrama."

That's what I'm not sure about (especially with Lost Highway; Mulholland Drive works almost perfectly with the "dream/flashback" structure though increasingly I do wonder if Lynch was going for something that straightforward). Part of the problem with these readings is a slippery slope...if we start to leave out certain aspects at what point do we choose what to keep (i.e. if he doesn't really see the Mystery Man and his wife wasn't in pornography, how do we even know he really killed anybody at all?). What are the elements that belong to reality and what to illusion, if the whole thing occurs inside someone's head? There's also the corollary to this: if the works are psychodramatic allegories, do we even need to establish a separate "reality" from what happens onscreen? Isn't the reality that these fantastical occurences are pointing back to our own reality, rather than a character's? It's a complicated idea, so hopefully I'm not being too confusing in presenting it.

Anyway, I'd recommend Martha Nochimson's book David Lynch Swerves, which reads Lynch's second-stage works through the prism of quantum mechanics (which Lynch apparently has an amateur enthusiasm for) and the Vedic scriptures (which seem to form the bedrock of his spiritual beliefs). Though I don't agree with all of her interpretations (the Mulholland Drive one particularly doesn't gibe with the feeling I get from that movie), her reading of Inland Empire is by far the best I've seen. What I like about her and other similar readings is that they link the mythology and psychology so that they are really two sides of the same coin: a larger spiritual reality in which these specific stories play a part. It makes the mythological elements feel less like they are distracting from the human aspect and more like they are amplifying it (which is what good mythology should do anyway).

"But Twin Peaks is a strange beast, because it's one of maybe two major works (along with Dune) that Lynch didn't have full creative control over."

This is both what fascinates and frustrates me about the series. It's amazing to see these different, even contradictory impulses, play out against - and inform - one another. And it's very revealing that when Lynch took back the reigns, in the final episode, FWWM, and all the little additions he's made since then (the Log Lady intros, the Missing Pieces, Between Two Worlds) he managed to pull the story back in line with his vision while still respecting the previous material: his ret-cons almost always obey the logic of what came before.

"I'm curious to see how they continue the series, given that Lynch will be much more firmly in the drivers' seat with the new episodes."

He will - but he'll also be in his most full collaboration with Mark Frost since, arguably, the pilot. I am VERY curious to see how they make room for their differing takes on the mythology. And I actually like much of Frost's mythos quite a bit (the only area where I feel he majorly missteps is in emphasizing Leland's "possession"). The whole fear vs. love thing I think is a very compelling lens through which to view the Twin Peaks saga and I'd bet that was Frost (though it's certainly in accord with Lynch's previous works and overall philosophy). The big difference, and this is something Nochimson also emphasized in her first book, The Passion of David Lynch, is that Frost tends to view the supernatural as "out-there" and threatening, with rationality and an effective counterpoint while Lynch seems to embrace and want to go into the darkness (which he still recognizes as dangerous) as has more distrust of rationality. Considering how interesting it is to parse out and reconcile what the two brought to the original Twin Peaks, it's going to be even more so in this case.

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I really dislike when people push aside all the supernatural occurrences, ie. Bob, the lodge, the spirits and the Mythology of it, when it's completely irrational to think like that. Cooper WENT INTO the black lodge, Sarah HAD VISIONS of Bob, of course he was a literal spirit! And the mythology of the Lodge is very much real, if it wasn't the show would be about half as long as it was and completely uninteresting. While Leland was maybe not quite as innocent as he was made out to be in the show, and there may have been shades of grey as far as that was concerned, Bob was a very real entity and to discount that and try and turn it into just a psychosexual case of incest is weak and ignorant.

If Lynch had intended it to be the way the OP has outlined it, why would he include Philip Jeffries, Laura seeing Annie, and deliberately expanded on the mythology that is so integral to the show.

"Animals are beasts, but Men are Monsters..."

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Out of curiosity, why do you feel so strongly about it? I mean, I agree the mythology is there and it doesn't make sense to deny it but I can't say I would like Fire Walk With Me significantly less if it were all in Laura's head. I ask because I've seen this reaction on several occasions now. Sometimes it's been from defensive genre fans who seem irked that people think if a film is good than it can't "really" be a fantasy, but I'm not sure if that's true in your case as well.

I do think Lynch and Frost have somewhat different takes on how to present the supernatural, though. Frost seems to be more into a traditional presentation of the paranormal in which there are certain rules that the spirit world obeys in relation to the the physical world. Lynch tends to play more loosely and ambiguously with inexplicable phenomena, so that we never quite know what's going on or how it works. For example, Lost Highway, Mulholland Drive, and Inland Empire could all feasibly be described as "supernatural thrillers" but few would do so for several reasons - one being how ambiguously he presents ruptures in "reality" so that viewers could (and often do) interpret them as being inside the characters' heads (although there are usual details to contradict this if one looks closely enough; for example, in Lost Highway one of the other characters at the party sees the Mystery Man). And rules are seldom if ever established for how these phenomena work.

Ultimately, the reason FWWM plays so well as a psychodrama is that for Lynch it isn't an either/or proposition. The reality of the spirit world and the psychological significance of the spirits to the people they interact with is intertwined rather than separate. My sense is that part of what he was doing with Fire Walk With Me was taking Frost's direction of the series mythology (which locates the spirit world "out-there") and dragging it as much as he could in his own direction, without contradicting what the series had already presented. Which is why it will be really interesting to see Lynch and Frost work together again and meld their two sensibilities into a consistent framework.

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I just finished rewatching FWWM after rewatching the series over the last couple weeks. I agree the supernatural elements are key. Perhaps Lynch himself was in a different place when he made FWWM and was less interested in the mythology at the time. At least it seemed that way because he didn't include much but I don't think FWWM negates all or even most of the mythology.

The sticking point here seems to be Leland saying in the railway car that he thought she knew it was him. That doesn't necessarily contradict what he said in the jail cell, because those are two different Lelands as far as I'm concerened. Up to that point Leland hadn't existed without Bob since he was a little boy. In my opinion as I watched the series, it seemed to me that Leland became increasingly more Bob as it went along. When he freaked out when they locked the door behind him he was almost 100% Bob, hence acting like a beast. Once Bob left his vessel Leland was 100% Leland the way he hadn't been since he was a little boy. That Leland did not participate in any of what Bob had done using his body. Leland in the train car was maybe 50% Bob. So he was bad Leland really, the one we saw in the Black Lodge. Dale Cooper was cradling good Leland who confessed everything. But good Leland had nothing to do with it. He was a witness really. I think that when Leland let Bob in as a little boy it was probably a mischievous or bad little Leland that let him in. So basically the doppelgangers are in everyone all the time, it's just which one is in control and Bob and the other spirits can use you if you let them, but only the bad you would let them.

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I think the problem I would have with this interpretation is that Lynch goes out of his way to separate Leland and Bob as two separate entires in this scene - one on one side, one on the other. Leland has to be 100% Leland (which means both the good and the bad inside of him, regardless of Bob) for the scene to make any sense. Why pan from 50+% Bob to 100% Bob? The contrast wouldn't be strong and the image/scene would lose its punch.

That said, this doesn't NECESSARILY contradict what's in the series. Recall that Leland says when Bob was in him he made him do terrible things and when he was gone he couldn't remember. This (plus Laura's diary in which she always sees Bob when being tormented) strongly suggests that Leland's abuse of Laura occurred when Bob was controlling him - an idea Fire Walk With Me strongly contradicts. But it doesn't come right out and say it - it's possible Bob made him do other terrible things (including psychic/spiritual harassment of his daughter) but the decision to abuse Laura was made by him. Or even more likely, he could simoly be lying in the jail cell, not out of malice, but out of grief and shame. The ambiguity of Leland's denial in both Between Two Worlds and the finale support this interpretation (although in the finale it's the doppelgänger, plus he says "I did not kill anybody" which is not he same as denying the abuse, so who knows...)

Actually, the biggest contradiction between FWWM and what came before may be with Bob saying, "I always thought you knew it was me." The implication - even earlier in the film itself - was that Bob confronts Laura openly as a spoor it aside from his in habitation I her father. All in all, the scene contradicts a lot of what we thought we knew about Laura, Leland, and Bob so its very interesting Lynch was compelled to include it. I wonder why...

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Your explanation of Leland/BOB is all well and good, if it wasn't for the final episode in the Twin Peaks series.

The final episode shows Dale looking into the mirror and seeing BOB.

Ok ... so we can say that BOB is a metaphor for the evil within taking over ... except other people see BOB too when he has taken over his entity.

A poster was even drawn via recollection of that other girl that was with Laura the night she died. She recollected the face of BOB not Leland.

Sok, I don't see it the same as the Lost Highway delusion.

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You're right, the whole idea of BOB coming from Laura's psyche falls apart with the scene where Agent Cooper sees BOB in the mirror.



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I think the psychology that is drawn on throughout Twin Peaks, including the movie, is more often social than personal. People seeing the same things can at times be a representation of people seeing things in the same way.




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"This is all I am permitted to say."
--Twin Peaks

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To me that would be trying to over read into it. I try to avoid that. If there was more evidence of that in the movie I could go with it but otherwise that's not why I see is being conveyed.

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What do we know about the Palmers, Agt. Cooper, etc., beyond their present lives and immediate circumstances, which we see pretty much from social roles and interactions? What else do we have on which to base a psychology for any of them?


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"The bonsai: the ultimate miniature."
--Will Hayward, Twin Peaks.

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The series.

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And?

Even there, we have to accept them as we find them, which leaves what they do, how they are seen by others and so far as we can tell seem to want to be seen by them, and such, by which to understand them or at least try to make sense of what they do. These are social factors. Or things that might be observed in nature studies.

If a cause is supposed to be some internal motivation that explains a result, or at least some previous factor that invariably produces that internal motivation, I don't think we are offered that in either the series or the movie, especially regarding Leland Palmer.

The thing that he claims in ep10 does not seem to be true on its face, and might not even be a cover that reflects the truth; by that time, he was in the last throes of deflection, and he might be the least reliable narrator in the whole saga.

In any case, there are many who have had such unfortunate experiences who nonetheless manage not to destroy their lives or those around them (the primary case is murder, not rape), so the search for a cause has to extend to additional factors.


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"How should we interpret the happy song of the meadowlark,
or the robust flavor of a wild strawberry?"
--Margaret "the Log Lady" Lantermann, Twin Peaks 27.

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