Why did Praxis explode?


Something that's been bothering me since I first saw the movie in theater, but I don't often start a new discussion anywhere.

If they were mining dilithium, we "know" from Treknology that dilithium is not itself an energy SOURCE, it "only" transfers/converts the raw energy from a matter/antimatter reaction into a form or forms that can be used to power a warp drive, etc. So, a dilithium mine would not explode on its own, no matter how bad the safety precautions were.

To destroy the moon as depicted, seems necessary to have taken a matter/antimatter explosion, which you don't get just from dilithium. And there would be no reason for a "warp reactor" to power mining operations.

As further "proof," the miners in "Mudd's Women" didn't seem too worried about danger of explosions or anything else about their work.

Too bad, the same goal in the movie could have been accomplished another way. But it seems like maybe nobody thought of that before.

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I was on the memory alpha page and it stated that the explosion was loosely inspired by the Chernobyl disaster. I mean Praxis was a moon and that much mining would take a lot of power. It follows in my mind that they may have have had huge anti-matter reactors similar to the nuclear reactors we have today. But that's merely conjecture.

Your's sincerely, General Joseph Liebgott

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Still doesn't seem likely. Nuclear reactors are one thing. But those are used on SHIPS at the present time in order to produce enough energy to MOVE the ship as well as power, in effect, a small city. Mines on land, don't ever have their own nuclear power plant no matter how large they are. In part, maybe, because they don't have to MOVE.

The mining operation on the Horta planet, apparently planet-wide, meanwhile, was powered by an apparently lesser "pergium" (sp?) reactor, which is still nothing like matter/antimatter. (It could also apparently get by for several hours without the main cooling pump!)

And a starship uses the matter/antimatter reactor mostly for the warp drive. Other power, such as for lights and maybe even some energy-sucks like transporters, appears to come from "regular" fusion reactors. (Which are mentioned several times even for Enterprise D.)

It seems like what they were mostly after was just drama, hang the logic. But they could have done that I think just as well, without claiming - and showing - that the majority of Praxis had essentially disappeared.

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Why did Ceti Alpha Six explode?
It seems that Trek planets are just plain unstable.

"After years of fighting with reality, I am pleased to say that I have finally won out over it."

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I haven't followed all the latest theories, but isn't it still at least considered a possibility that our own asteroid belt used to be another planet? It seems at least not too far out of reach for a planet to have a sufficiently unstable core to end up coming apart.

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No
Spoil sport scientists have calculated the effects of a big planet like Jupiter and found that it would divide the asteroid zone into several smaller zones divided by empty zones where no body could have a stable orbit due to perturbations by Jupiter.

Thus no large planet could have formed in the asteroid belt unless the initial mass of space dust there had been great enough to disrupt the formation of Jupiter, and possibly Mars and Earth.

On the other hand several objects did form in the asteroid belt which were much larger than most asteroids today. Their gravitational force compressed their centers and generated enough heat to melt the interiors of those dwarf planets and cause their materials to form layers based on their density, with the heaviest elements like iron deeper. Then those bodies were shattered by collisions with other large bodies into thousands of pieces, some of which are solid nickel iron from their cores.

The only know natural method of shattering a planet is by a collision with another large object, and such collisions only happened in the early period of the solar system, when there were more planetary sized bodies and their orbits had not been regularized by millions and billions of years of gravitational interaction which got rid of the objects that were not in stable enough orbits.

By the time that Klingons evolved on Kronos, the odds against a large spherical body like Praxis being shattered in a collision would be astronomical, and there is no other known way for a celestial body to explode.

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by Porpoise01
Why did Ceti Alpha Six explode?
It seems that Trek planets are just plain unstable.

ceti alpha six didn't explode. it was it's primary sun, Ceti-Alpha.(or something like that, which fvvked up the environment on ceti-alpha 5).


...
Gimli: You'll find more cheer in a graveyard.

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Khan said that Ceti Alpha 6 exploded. You disagree? But his mind is superior!

And if Ceti Alpha 6 still existed, presumably Reliant wouldn't have gone to the wrong planet.

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ceti alpha six didn't explode. it was it's primary sun, Ceti-Alpha.


Yet there is sunlight on Ceti Alpha V, hence there is a sun. Me thinks you don't know what you are talking about. There really is no need to pull things out of your ass. Stick to the points presented in the film, not stuff that you make up.

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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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Maybe Praxis was made of the same kind of rocks that they had on Vaal's world.

"Live long and suck it, Zachary Quinto!"

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They later said that Section 34 had a hand in starting the Praxis incident.

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They later said that Section 34 had a hand in starting the Praxis incident.


They who? Why can't Praxis' explosion just be from over-mining? Why does it have to be some goofy conspiracy to make it blow up?

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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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They who? Why can't Praxis' explosion just be from over-mining? Why does it have to be some goofy conspiracy to make it blow up?


There's never been any indication that dilithium can just explode on its own, no matter how much you over-mine it.

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I was not aware that dilithium mining was ever covered to any great detail in the Star Trek films or series at that point. How about sharing with me some specific on-screen moments prior to 1991 that would directly contradict the explosion of Praxis or require it to be some sort of silly conspiracy?

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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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I don't know anything about a conspiracy, I don't remember it ever being mentioned. Of course if that was in the new awful film, I never WILL see or hear it mentioned. But it's long been established that dilithium has no energy of its own, it is used to convert the "raw" energy from a matter/antimatter reaction into forms usable to power warp drive etc.

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But nothing in this film suggests that dilithium is what exploded. The mining process could have triggered some other sort of reaction within Praxis that led to the explosion. No real information is given other than over-mining. That other person brought up the conspiracy crap, to which I initially replied. Either way, I see no problem with Praxis exploding due to over-mining, as not enough detail is given in order for it to be a flaw.

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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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Maybe in theory. But again, given "known" Treknology, it's difficult if not impossible to think of anything that could cause the great majority of the whole moon to be obliterated, other than a rather large matter/antimatter explosion. Which you don't get just from dilithium.

And what reason would they have to be using such a power source for mining? Matter/antimatter reactions are used, in Treknology, only for powering high-energy mobile systems such as starships. Just as, in our current world, mobile cities - aircraft carriers - use a nuclear reactor, but even the largest land-based mining operations, some of which are also city-sized, don't have their own nuclear power plant. The mining operation for the whole planet Janus VI (Devil In The Dark) is powered by a much simpler pergium (sp?) reactor which can even get along without its main cooling pump for several hours.

They could have avoided the whole issue by just saying it was some kind of secret weapons development, but they didn't.

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[deleted]

Exactly, chipwolfe. A great deal falls under the umbrella of "over-mining". I am not sure why that other guy is so obsessed with acting like this is a mistake when it isn't. Like I said, not enough information is given to be making the vast assumptions required to make it be a mistake. It's just a desire by some to make mountains out of mole hills.

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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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Whatever it was, must've been pretty powerful to send a huge shockwave across the galaxy.

"Live long and suck it, Zachary Quinto!"

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Yes, the shockwave is far more questionable.

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Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

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another strange thing is Praxis would have reformed. the moons of Jupiter reformed several times after being hit by asteroids




















Amy Adams and Jenifer Lawrence chained me up and had their wicked way

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Did any of them re-form after being mostly obliterated? It's a different kind of thing. Plus even if Praxis did re-form, if there was enough mass left to produce enough gravitational force to do it, that doesn't mean it would be usable for Klingon energy production again. Or soon enough, either.

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And how long do you think that it would take for Praxis to reform? How long did it take the shattered moons of Jupiter to reform according to the calculations of the astronomers who suggested that theory? thousands of years, millions of years?

Any survivors of the explosion wouldn't want to be around anyway when Praxis started to reform, which would consist of a massive bombardment of meteorites and asteroids from space.

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Perhaps Praxis was not a dilithium mining station.

Perhaps Praxis was a power generating facility which generated power and beamed it to other planets in its solar system or even to planets in other solar systems. Perhaps there was mining on Praxis to supply the fuel for the power generating.

What would the fuel be? Hydrogen to be fused into helium in fusion reactors? Unfortunately there is no known way to get any kind of fusion reactor - at least any which has been imagined by Earth's most brilliant nuclear physicists in the last seventy years -- to explode.

Decades of research and billions of dollars have not yet developed fusion reactors which can produce more energy than they use, or run for sustained periods without shutting down. It will be enough of a struggle to develop fusion reactors which generate a lot of energy and are absolutely safe and cannot possibly explode, without going farther and inventing dangerous fusion reactors which can explode.

However dangerous fusion reactors which can overload and explode like fission reactors do seem to exist in the Star Trek universe due to some as yet known discovery which would revolutionize nuclear physics if made in real life.

Even so, why mine hydrogen on Praxis, when hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe?

Possibly unknown aliens who isolated and collected a vast amount of deuterium, or heavy hydrogen, which is easier to fuse, stored it on Praxis, where it may not have mixed with regular hydrogen due to some factors which kept the two isotopes separate. The Klingons may have mined veins of gaseous, liquid, or solid deuterium which were actually the storage system of the ancient aliens.

The Klingons possibly generated power in massive orbiting power stations. They may have used a lot of that power to make antimatter, the most concentrated power storage imaginable, to fuel their starships, and some of those facilities may have orbited Praxis to be closer to the power generators.

And the orbiting power generators and the orbiting antimatter factories might have been attached to the surface of Praxis by space elevators to bring up the mined deuterium easier.

As the Klingons mined the deuterium they may have piled up vast heaps of slag which may have been ices of water, methane, ammonia, etc. all mixed together. Heaps of ices which were dangerously steep even on a low gravity world like Praxis.

All powered activity, such as mining, tends to produce waste heat. Waste heat might melt some of the ices in the slag heaps to liquids which would lubricate the ices remaining solids. When enough of the ices were melted into liquids, a slag heap would become liquified and act like mud - it would collapse.

Molasses flows slowly under most normal conditions, but during the Great Molasses Flood in Boston it surged faster than people could run smashing everything in its path like a tsunami of mud. A slag heap could undergo sudden catastrophic failure and suddenly smash the mining facilities. Perhaps it would smash into some of the space elevators and pull them down toward Praxis.

When the orbiting powoer generators and antimatter factories smashed into Praxis, the unsafe Star Trek fusion reactors would explode and the stored antimatter would explode in gigantic explosions. These might trigger the deuterium deposits to explode, which might be enough to start the ordinary hydrogen throughout Praxis fusing into helium, resulting is a sufficiently gigantic explosion.

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[deleted]

1) The Excelsior was hit by a SUBSPACE shock wave which might not have affected anything that was totally in regular space, such as an astronomical object, for example.

People in the same solar system as Praxis might have had to worry about gamma rays and particle radiation and a shock wave in normal space but wouldn't be bothered by the the subspace shock wave if their ships,installations, or planets were totally in normal space.

Starships traveling at warp might be interfacing with subspace and thus affected by a disturbance in subspace even at a distance of many light years.

I can believe that if our moon exploded the good people of Alpha Centauri would not have to worry about any shock wave of superheated gases reaching them, though they might have to worry about the intense flux of electromagnetic radiation and particle radiation heading their way.

But it s perfectly plausible that if the moon created a subspace shock wave it might interact with and shake up starships passing at a much greater distance than the distance to Alpha Centauri.

2) According to the TNG episode "the Emissary" there was a hot war, a shooting war, with the Klingons 75 years earlier, about the time of TUC. In order for our heroes peacemaking to not be a failure, the shooting war with the Klingons must have been before TUC - shortly before, with a recent peace treaty signed not long before Sulu and the Excelsior left on three year scientific mission.

This war may have ended with the Klingons ceding a lot of planets to the Federation,so the new border with the Federation may have been just a few light years from the solar system of Praxis and Kronos. Before the war Kronos and Praxis had been in the center of the Klingon Empire, now they were very close to one of its borders, as I describe in my thread "the Klingon Empire Has Fallen".

If that seems like a very strange situation to you, my thread about the voyage of V'ger in the Star trek the Motion Picture board suggests that there was Klingon outpost as close to Earth as Bernard's Star in that movie.

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[deleted]

The reason is explained in the video game Star Trek: Klingon Academy

*SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO PLAY KLINGON ACADEMY, PLOT SPOILERS FOLLOW FROM THIS POINT ON*

During a brief civil war within the Klingon Empire, a Klingon Usurper named Melkor is making his bid for the Klingon Throne by declaring himself emperor. and during a failing battle Melkor caused the Klingon Empire to lose it's main source of energy, the 'Talinor gates' by causing the Talinor sun to go supernova. So now starved of much needed energy, a much higher demand was placed on Praxis and overmining led to it's destruction.

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The reason is explained in the video game Star Trek: Klingon Academy


But that's just retcon. The movie came out in 1991, the video game in 2000.

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Well, you mentioned some good points-- like how antimatter doesn't interact with/mutually annihilate dilithium. But an industrial facility as important to the Empire as Praxis was, you've gotta think that they'd equip it with powerful defenses.

So perhaps it had defenses-- not the mining hardware-- that were powered by a matter/antimatter reaction assembly. I mean I imagine the energy source for a warp drive powering just a shield and weapons, without the engine to operate, would provide a pretty solid defense.

So if that were the case, it could have been an antimatter containment failure (which can happen for a number of reasons). Normally such an explosion would be limited to mutually annihilating the mass of the ship carrying the M/ARA, but a moon would provide a lot more (non-dilithium) matter for the antimatter to interact with.


I'm an island- peopled by bards, scientists, judges, soldiers, artists, scholars & warrior-poets.

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It wouldn't matter (har har) how big the moon was, antimatter would only interact with/destroy an equal amount of matter. That's the whole 1:1 thing.

Of course, it wouldn't take the whole part of the moon that 'disappeared', to produce a large enough explosion to blow it apart.

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Well, no, I wasn't trying to say that "if it was a matter/antimatter reaction it would necessarily have destroyed the whole thing," just that the amount of antimatter that they may have had on hand for a posited M/ARA to power defenses could have produced a much bigger explosion than, say, a starship exploding, because the moon offers more mass to react with.

Supplemental to that idea, while I know that antimatter doesn't interact destructively with dilithium, I wonder if the energy liberated by its interaction with all the other matter present would have destroyed the dilithium being mined, or if the only debris left in the giant gouge the blast took out would be bits of dilithium that went untouched by the exploding antimatter.

Anyway, that remains my best guess: a 'warp core' (as opposed to the arguably safer fusion reactors they might have used on a less vital facility) hooked up to no engine but a buttload of shield generators and disruptor banks to keep threat forces from ganking Qu'onos' main powerplant. And the irony is not lost.

I'm an island- peopled by bards, scientists, judges, soldiers, artists, scholars & warrior-poets.

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Again, it wouldn't matter (har har) if the moon is a trillion times the mass of a starship. If you have (to put it simply) a ton of antimatter, it will only interact with/destroy a ton of matter. Whether that ton is part of a starship, or part of a moon. 1:1 is the universal ratio. 1 ton of antimatter will not interact with/totally convert to energy, any more than 1 ton of matter. That's just how it works. Once the 1 ton of antimatter interacts with 1 ton of matter, the antimatter no longer exists. (And neither does the matter, but that's the point.)

Now, a moon having greater total mass, means that the explosion of the one ton of antimatter and ONE ton of the moon's mass, has a lot more excess mass to throw around/vaporize/etc. As in the case of the cloud creature destroyed by an antimatter explosion that "ripped away (some large portion) of the planet's atmosphere." The antimatter didn't destroy the air. The TOTAL CONVERSION TO ENERGY of - as I recall - JUST ONE OUNCE of antimatter, with JUST ONE OUNCE of matter (which the magnetic bottle alone was more than sufficient to provide) produced enough energy to disrupt the planet's atmosphere.

A starship might carry enough antimatter to produce an explosion big enough to destroy the whole planet, perhaps several times over. But if that antimatter explodes, the whole mass of the ship isn't that much to blow out into space. On the other hand, the same explosion perhaps deep inside a moon, might easily blow the whole moon apart, even if it's only a tiny fraction of the moon's whole mass interacting with the equal amount of antimatter.

I've never heard or read anywhere that antimatter doesn't destroy dilithium. And it wouldn't make sense for anyone to claim that. Dilithium is matter, and that's what matters (again, har har). As far as I "know," the matter/antimatter reaction is contained within magnetic fields, not some kind of dilithium shell or casing. The energy released, think of it in terms of light, is converted to usable forms by the dilithium acting as, in this analogy, a solar cell/panel. If the matter/antimatter reaction produced magnetism, the energy might be converted to electricity by having coils around the reaction that work like any other generator does, but also without the coils actually coming into contact with - and hence being destroyed by - the antimatter.

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I've never heard or read anywhere that antimatter doesn't destroy dilithium. And it wouldn't make sense for anyone to claim that. Dilithium is matter, and that's what matters (again, har har). As far as I "know," the matter/antimatter reaction is contained within magnetic fields, not some kind of dilithium shell or casing. The energy released, think of it in terms of light, is converted to usable forms by the dilithium acting as, in this analogy, a solar cell/panel. If the matter/antimatter reaction produced magnetism, the energy might be converted to electricity by having coils around the reaction that work like any other generator does, but also without the coils actually coming into contact with - and hence being destroyed by - the antimatter.


Then I gather that you've never read the Enterprise-D technical manual, because that's where I found Michael Okuda's explanation of how the warp drive works. Have read it a few times because I really am that big a nerd, and it states (about as canonically as you're gonna get out of authorized Star Trek material) that dilithium, for some reason 'r another, does not mutually annihilate when it interacts with antimatter. It's described as having a porous or lattice-like crystalline structure that the deuterium and antideuterium both sorta' flow into from opposite sides, and the reaction between them takes place within the crystal, with its physical structure + EM fields expelling the resulting plasma perpendicular to the axis along which the reactants travel. That plasma stream is split and most of it goes to the warp nacelles to work its spacetime-distorting voodoo in the warp coils, with some of the energy being drawn off by the Electro-Plasma System (EPS) tap to run the rest of the ship's systems.

So... yeah. Something about the makeup of dilithium not only lets it channel antideuterium without them touching and exploding, but lets it stand up to the matter/antimatter explosions taking place inside its matrix. So sayeth the guy most intimately familiar with and responsible for overseeing 'Treknology' in every iteration of the franchise since TNG. Or at least, up until the latest reboot where they dispensed with any pretense of respect for canon and they turned Engineering into a goddamned beer brewery. Now who the f--k knows, it probably runs off Orci's polished turds magically turning antimatter into pure lens flare energy.


I'm an island- peopled by bards, scientists, judges, soldiers, artists, scholars & warrior-poets.

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The matter/antimatter reaction would be producing pure energy, not 'plasma.'

The resulting energy might be used to "excite" some other plasma, perhaps - as indicated previously - by directing the energy through dilithium. But plasma is still a form of matter and matter/antimatter would give you annihilation + energy.

Michael Okuda is a graphic designer. And L. Ron Hubbard also wrote "canon."

And William Conrad WAS Cannon.

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This isn't going to be a productive conversation if you insist on applying real-world science to a fictional universe where they invoke 'magical'-science at every turn. I'm just telling you what it said in the book that was published with the franchise's stamp of approval, by the principle guy invested with the authority to make up 'explanatory' treknobabble.

Okuda is one of the made-up universe's chief "wizards" and he has written "here's now a warp core works;" I can know it's nonsense, and you can know it's nonsense, but we must cede that what's canon is 'real' in the fictional world, and supersedes our real world knowledge, and must work from those assumptions if we're to discuss happenings within the fiction. If the book says "the warp core's output is plasma" we're obliged to work with that, however silly we know it to be.

Invoking Hubbard isn't really useful, either, it's apples and oranges. Obfuscation as to whether his writing was meant to be fiction or real has had real deleterious consequences in the lives of people, so it's fair to pick his work apart to highlight the bulls--t. Unless we're debating whether or not your local government should build an antimatter reactor in your back yard, "what went wrong on Praxis" doesn't have enough real world bearing to merit the same level of scrutiny as Scientology. If that tech ever does become real and could blow up your city, then okay, we could reasonably dig into the fiction we associate with it to debate whether it was misleading people in the realm of policy, or whatever. But until then I don't think Okuda needs to be lumped in with Hubbard, do you?


I'm an island- peopled by bards, scientists, judges, soldiers, artists, scholars & warrior-poets.

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Only to the extent that they both wrote made-up nonsense and pretended it was "real." As to whether lives are damaged or ruined by both, wellll... :-)

Unless we're going to start believing that Star Trek takes place in some entirely other universe, rather than (supposedly) our own future, then some things that are "known" have to behave the way we know them to behave. For example, the crew breathe through their nose/mouth and excrete waste through their rectums, rather than the other way around. Even if Okuda wanted to write it that way in the "technical manual."

Matter and antimatter don't produce plasma. They annihilate each other, and generate large amounts of energy. Okuda should have thought about it some more, and maybe looked up something in a book first. Or just asked someone else who knows more about science. I feel no more compelled to accept his explanation of a warp core, than I would if he was wrong about the previously mentioned biological facts.

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You keep going on about Dilithium being safe, etc. Mines on Earth (likely miniscule compared to a Klingon moon) explode frequently, never is it caused by the substance being mined. When you dig a hole to get at worms, you don't just find worms.



Ya Kirk-loving Spocksucker!

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Well, all they really say is that Praxis is "their key energy production facility." They don't really say HOW, or for WHAT. "Overmining and insufficient safety precautions" could mean something like, the overmining caused ground underneath a matter/antimatter power plant to become unstable, and so the power plant exploded. Since we "know" that just 1 ounce of antimatter produces an explosion large enough to "rip away (half?) the planet's atmosphere," and the Enterprise apparently carried a lot more than THAT, if something caused such a power plant on Praxis to explode, it could very easily turn out to obliterate most of the moon itself.

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Yeah that exploding Enterprise in Star Trek III really blew up Genesis, or NCC-1701-D blew Soran and Picard on that planet in Generations.

Matter/Antimatter explosions are as powerful as the script dictates... An exploding Enterprise could destroy Vger but no one made a M/AM torpedo to fight a borg cube 

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Red Matter?

Voluptatis avidus,
Magis quam salutis,
Mortuus in anima,
Curam gero cutis.

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