After she kills her child she becomes delusional. Everything that happens after that point is seen through the haze of her mental breakdown. Once imprisoned she gradually worsens and slips into a world of hallucinations and religious fantasy, Yet in spite of her madness she is clear enough to see that she never REALLY believed, and that there will never be a place in this fictional heaven for her.
sharei think the movie is saying that religious faith is a two-edged sword that can harm you as much as give you strength. what kind of mother are you if you love god more than you love your children? is the idea of going to heaven more important to you than life itself? might as well be dead then ...
share"i think the movie is saying that religious faith is a two-edged sword that can harm you as much as give you strength. what kind of mother are you if you love god more than you love your children? is the idea of going to heaven more important to you than life itself? might as well be dead then ..."
That is an excellent question. What kind of mother are you if you love God more than you love your children? A Christian. Jesus told us in Matthew 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me". God requires total devotion. That does not mean we are to hurt anyone for His sake, but it means that we are to "love the LORD our God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength."
But your right "religious faith" is a two edge sword. Faith in God is not. Is the idea of going to heaven more important to you than life itself? It shouldn't be. True faith is selfless. True faith is faith in God, not what God is going to give you for keeping the faith. And anyone who would do something so horrible like she did in the movie, is not experiencing true faith, and has not truly studied scripture.
Christ has told us "we will be known by our works", and that a tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire.
Hmmm...but what is God? I personally think that we have to admit that none of us really knows. We may believe a certain thing, or think we know, but we do not. This is because the mind cannot understand God. Once we turn off the mind and become aware of how we feel inside, only then can we become aware that God truly is, and can live accordingly. In my opinion God is not something or someone that can be explained, I think that's important to note. That doesn't mean one can't be a great Christian and admit this, I just think it means that claiming to have all the answers is dangerous (I'm not saying you're doing that BTW). In any case, great comments made, thanks for the posts.
share
anytime_is_partytime, it is not about how you feel; it is about what Bible/The Word of God says, and it is also what you think. satan (the god of this world) is the one who wants you to go by what you feel because that is going to very easily lead you in the wrong direction, which is away from God and His wonderful plan for your life. The Bible is also called The Mind of Christ and it is the only way that we can learn about God, through His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ. And it is through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, through confessing our sins and getting back into fellowship with God who teaches us the Word of God through our right pastor/teacher. However, all of this starts after believing and having faith alone in Christ alone.
anytime_is_partytime, it is not about how you feel; it is about what Bible/The Word of God says, and it is also what you think. satan (the god of this world) is the one who wants you to go by what you feel because that is going to very easily lead you in the wrong direction, which is away from God and His wonderful plan for your life. The Bible is also called The Mind of Christ and it is the only way that we can learn about God, through His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ. And it is through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, through confessing our sins and getting back into fellowship with God who teaches us the Word of God through our right pastor/teacher. However, all of this starts after believing and having faith alone in Christ alone
May God bless you also.
God is Grace and God is True. And God is not someone that you feel. He meets us in our thoughts not our feelings. Feelings are very subjective and can very easily lead us the wrong way away from God, which is what satan (the god of this earth wants to do). And the only way to truly know God is to believe in Christ and have faith alone in Him alone and to learn about Him and all that He has done for you by dying on the Cross both physically and spiritually for your sins and the whole world's sins in the Word of God. And yes, God can be explained because Christ explained Him in the Word of God,which is also called the Bible or the Mind of Christ. If you know Christ, then you know God. You can't live accordingly as a Christian without Christ on your own human power. And you can't get to know God any other way, but through His Word/The Bible.
share[deleted]
"i think the movie is saying that religious faith is a two-edged sword that can harm you as much as give you strength. what kind of mother are you if you love god more than you love your children? is the idea of going to heaven more important to you than life itself? might as well be dead then ..."
That is an excellent question. What kind of mother are you if you love God more than you love your children? A Christian. Jesus told us in Matthew 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me". God requires total devotion. That does not mean we are to hurt anyone for His sake, but it means that we are to "love the LORD our God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength."
But your right "religious faith" is a two edge sword. Faith in God is not. Is the idea of going to heaven more important to you than life itself? It shouldn't be. True faith is selfless. True faith is faith in God, not what God is going to give you for keeping the faith. And anyone who would do something so horrible like she did in the movie, is not experiencing true faith, and has not truly studied scripture.
Christ has told us "we will be known by our works", and that a tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire.
May God bless you.
If god wants me to love him more than I love my own children then he is a sick bast*rd and egotistical. Are you overweight? Do you have an illness? Are you rich? What does he do for you? Anything? Cure your cancer? I doubt it.
I will be happy and smiling to be cast into a fire for loving my children more than some so-called omnipotent being that can't even prevent war, rape, kidnappings, etc, etc. I'm a good person and live a good life as a good mother. Isn't that the kind of life I am to lead?
There are probably hundreds of religions out there. They all believe different things but they all believe what they are doing for god is right. So they are all the right religion and they will all have whatever heaven they believe in regardless of believing in jesus or not. Does that mean all the good people in the world born and died before jesus ever came can't go to heaven? That's a sh*tty god if that's true and I don't want to be in that heaven.
As for is god a man or a woman? If he's a man then you are saying he is not a god at all, just a man.
As for me, save your 'my prayers are with you' to yourself. That would be a lie anyway. I want nothing to do with a god who does nothing to save anyone from rape, terrorism, cancer, murder, suffering, kidnappings, war, etc, etc, etc. *beep* that guy.
Life is here now. I'm not living all my days looking forward to dying. If there is a god then I would think that god would want me to live this great gift called LIFE and be a good person. Nothing more. And if he can do anything about war and other bad things, he won't. What a jerk.
Men wrote the bible and it's interpreted the way men want to view it. The same passage is viewed thousands of different ways depending on who you talk to.
All I know is those who believe in the bible or whatever other religious books or religion are all good people and all mean well wanting to save others. So I thank you for your kind thoughts but don't need them. I'm good thanks.
And it's terrible to see all the wars and deaths caused by who's god is the right god. It's sad.
Anyway what is heaven anyway? Paradise forever? How boring is that going to be aver a few hundred years? What if your wife died in a car crash and 24 years later you got remarried and the two of you now die. Will that man now have 2 wifes in heaven? Isnt' that wrong? What if heaven is being allowed to live on earth now and make your own decisions and choices? Ever think of that?
blah... I'm done
Stunning reply. Says better than I could, exactly how I feel about the current disturbing wave of right wing religious conservatism that seems to have swept the world.
Want to see something REALLY scary??...go to the blogs on you-tube on abortion...the comments from those claiming to live their lives according to the scriptures are frightening. They are twisted, vile and slathered in self congratulatory bigotism. I hate religion and all those narrow minded fools that prefer to live their lives with eyes and ears blinkered to the world around them.
Be kind to all, love your family and live live to the full...it's the only one your gonna have!
An interesting post. Very thought-provoking...
sharewhat do you mean we will not hurt anyone for his sake???? almost evey war in the world was started for "his sake"
http://groups.myspace.com/imdbregulars JOIN IT! if you like going to both sites
"i think the movie is saying that religious faith is a two-edged sword that can harm you as much as give you strength. what kind of mother are you if you love god more than you love your children? is the idea of going to heaven more important to you than life itself? might as well be dead then ..."
That is an excellent question. What kind of mother are you if you love God more than you love your children? A Christian. Jesus told us in Matthew 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me". God requires total devotion. That does not mean we are to hurt anyone for His sake, but it means that we are to "love the LORD our God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength."
But your right "religious faith" is a two edge sword. Faith in God is not. Is the idea of going to heaven more important to you than life itself? It shouldn't be. True faith is selfless. True faith is faith in God, not what God is going to give you for keeping the faith. And anyone who would do something so horrible like she did in the movie, is not experiencing true faith, and has not truly studied scripture.
Christ has told us "we will be known by our works", and that a tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire.
I agree with you on this.The writers of this story proably had it different the orignal writers i would liked to read the book and see if it was viewed the same.I believe also people get to into the movies now adays and now hate God or think this is the way he truly is. If a movie can do this and have effect on someone then i would say the writers and the people who promoted this movie didnt know or just didnt read scripture to find out. They should clearly put out this is a story about more cult like activity then the Christian God people know about. People are also mislead in thinking this is a good family home movie for them and there kids. When it turns out it is someone opinion on God they know truly nothing about the God who created them if they did they truly would not be so stupid in being so false. There are historical documents claiming that Christ exist as well as people talking about God who also exist there fore we have a creator. The Jewish branch can prove that there is a I am. The Christian branch can prove in research that there was a jesus. His shroud has been found in Israel. How ever not no where in the bible does it ever say God said behead this person for my treasure or i well kill you. Go to the desert and wait there fore me and kill your daughter. This is something you well never find in the bible.
If this movie is going to go with facts then get your facts straight.
I just watched this movie on channel five last night ktla and it was on at past midnight.
I think the end is meant to be literal. Tolkin's ultimate conclusion is, if one adheres strictly to the Judeo-Christian morality and obeys the word of God no matter what the personal cost, then one is adhering to a moral standard higher than that practiced by God himself--who passively observes the chaos and pain of humankind and yet expects us to follow his rules without question.
In the end, humans are more courageous and moral than God. A facinating take on the problem of evil, IMO.
www.gatewayarts.net
I never took the ending as a dream or a hallucination. This is a difficult film and I think the genius of it is that most of the film sets you up to think Tolkin's going for some kind of condemnation of the kind of religious thinking that produced so much misery in this woman and her family. And, of course, he does do that, I think. But he does that even though the Rapture she has suffered so much to believe in actually does occur, with even more painful and ultimate consequences. It's one of the boldest and most disturbing turns I've ever seen in the movies. I'd love to what Tolkin has said about it.
shareThe ending could also be interpreted as the product of her mind, shortly after her death. I don't think the universe or the planet that we inhabit will be collapsing during the human life cycle. So, it seems as if The Rapture that is going on throughout the end of the film, is the end of her world. I don't exactly know at what point she physically dies, but some perspectives shown in other films, novels and essays, like Jacob's Ladder, Waking Life or the Tibetan Book of the Dead, explain that as the physical body is dying, the experiencer is not really aware that death is going on for quite some time.
There are a lot of issues covered in this film, and I think it is stimulating and well done. I personally don't have faith in any sort of religion, the faith I have is of my own experience and my own morals, which happen to be peaceful and open minded. What I don't understand is the reasoning of damnation as portrayed in monotheistic religion. Why do we owe God so much? I think a life filled with honesty, love, acceptance and peace is a good enough life. In Dante's Inferno, it illustrates just how hard it would be to get into heaven, it is ridiculously hard in his view. So much sacrifice is needed that it would make life unpleasant. Why should an honest, loving person HAVE to have faith in God? In the Inferno, the Pagans who live good lives but don't put faith in God, are condemned to hell, forced to look at the gates of heaven for eternity. If their life is well lived, what does it matter if they believe in God or not? I personally believe that God is a subjective understanding of the driving life force within yourself. Not some monarchistic ruler, who deals with evil actions by implimenting equally evil consequences and judgements. That's how I know that organized religion (monotheistic ones, especially) is too human, too verbal, too symbolisitic for it's own good. Scare tactics don't usually work to change a person's perspectives. Does the reality of prison prevent a person from doing a crime? It usually does not. I think the only way to truly change a person from having negative (or evil) behaviour is making them understand themselves. When a person becomes truly in touch with their being, the life inside them, it dissolves any desire to inflict pain on any other being.
Hinduism is very interesting, but it is not something I commit to, no religion is. At least with Hinduism, it is polytheistic, which is wise, because it contains an openness that can welcome anyone, from all walks of life. I would like to classify myself as agnostic, but that is only when thinking about the conventional views of God. I have had some very personal, very powerful and emotional filled experiences, that I would call mystical in nature, that have led me to make changes in how I approach my daily life. After said experience, I have learned to appreaciate all things and find happiness in everything. I now feel like I can truly love others, and I have become much more contemplative over how I will choose to say something, or perform an action, as to avoid unneccesarily hurting another. I did not come into contact with some great ruler, some man in the clouds sitting on a throne, or touch Jesus' heart, I simply found the underlying truth to everything: that all of the answers are within yourself, found in your own personal experience.
Now, I know that religion can be beneficial to the life of the human being, as all religions are trying to make you live a better life. The fact is, however, that all religions try to offer explanations that they deem as right. All religions in essence are the right ones, whatever works for you, and what works for me is living with my own set of rules. Also, religions are too packed with symbolism that a lot of them deviate from their point. And, a lot of them claim to have the answer to death and the afterlife. This is not empirical, therefore the only thing I accept is that I will die, and it will be my own experience, and not one guided by the aspects of a religion.
I hope that I am not offending anyone because I do not have faith in their religion, or are criticising aspects of them, because this is not my intention. My intention is to make people think really hard about what they are doing and believing in their lives, and making sure that it is right for them. Because all you know is yourself, and that is all you will ever know.
In Hinduism GOD is beyond words, he cannot be explained in words for all words will fail.
he can only be experienced and after one experiences GOD the person does his worldy duties with minimum of attraction which doesnt mean he avoids them or do them in a careless manner.
Wow, a whole thread of non-Christians and uninformed Christians trying to analyze this very simple Christian-oriented film. I say "Christian-oriented" because the events are loosely based on the "End Times" of the Bible.
Yes, the ending is literal. It all happens.
The problem is that Mimi's character went nuts somewhere along the way and then at the end blames God and even though her own daughter begs her to accept God, she denies Him and prefers an eternity in Hell. This is evidence that's she either insane (who in their right mind when faced with Final Judgement would choose to burn in Hell?) or the film-makers are trying to make some silly statement that doesn't for a moment stand a chance in reality. Also known as a form of the "Hollywood Ending".
--------------------------------------
America put the "fun" back into "Fundamentalism".
I say "Christian-oriented" because the events are loosely based on the "End Times" of the Bible.
The problem is that Mimi's character went nuts somewhere along the way and then at the end blames God and even though her own daughter begs her to accept God, she denies Him and prefers an eternity in Hell.
who in their right mind when faced with Final Judgement would choose to burn in Hell?
America put the "fun" back into "Fundamentalism".
Unfortuntely, skiop, there are going to be many, many people who are going to choose the lake of fire of their own free will because of not believing and having faith alone in Christ alone.
(Rom 6:23) For All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.
(Joh 3:16-18) 16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son(The Lord Jesus Christ), that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him (The Lord Jesus Christ) is not judged; he who does not believe (of his/her own free will on earth) has been judged already (to the lake of fire)because he has not believed in the name of the begotten Son of God.
Nowhere, not one verse in the Bible/The Word of God talks about purgatory or limbo, however, there are many verses that speak about a Heaven and a lake of fire. (Revelation 20:1-4)1 Then I saw an angel coming down from Heaven, holding the key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand.2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and satan (who is also absolutely real), and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he threw satan into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it shut, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things, he must be released for a short time.
(Revelation 20:10, 14-15) 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 14 Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Now for the good news. If you choose to believe in The Lord Jesus Christ and have faith alone in Him alone, you will be saved and will spend eternity with God the Father in Heaven. There is no religion or any other way on are own power (that religion falsely teaches we have) to God or to get into Heaven. NO other way.
The apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 15:1-6 - “Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time.”
In Acts 17:30-31 Paul also noted the evidence of the resurrection of Christ. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
And now WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, the Lord Jesus Christ, will NEVER perish, but have eternal life. Joh 3:16
The Bible says, “The wages of sin is eternal death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 6:23
The Bible says “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” Acts 16:31
Right now let’s take a moment of silence. With your head bowed and eyes closed, you have privacy between you and God.
So right now, if you have never before believed in Jesus Christ, in your own words, in your thoughts only, you can tell God that you are believing in His Son Jesus Christ for eternal life.
You are a sinner and you need a Savior. And God loves you with such a precious love that He gave His uniquely born Son to die in your place.
And now He is offering you salvation as a free gift. And all you have to do is accept that gift, by simple trusting faith in Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.” Joh 1:12
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.” Eph 2:8-9
The bottom line is: there is not going to be a final judgement in Heaven of who will go to Heaven and who will go to the lake of fire. That is a lie from satan (the god of this world). Whether or not you choose to believe and have faith alone in Christ alone is a decision that you have to make while you are alive on this earth. God is not going to ask you when after you pass away as you already made that decision on earth, by your own free will.
And here is the even better news: We are now living in the birth pangs of the end times, and although nobody knows the day and the hour that Christ is comng back, except God the Father Himself, Christ is coming back soon!
Matt 24:1-14
24:1 And Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He answered and said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. 5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. 6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 "But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. 9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.
NAS
Now as this is a description of the Tribulation period, which believers in christ will not be on earth for, we can still discern the signs of the times. Mat 16.
Mat 16:1-3
16:1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Him asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. 2 But He answered and said to them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' 3 "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?
Luke 12:54-56
54 And He was also saying to the multitudes, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming,' and so it turns out. 55 "And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, 'It will be a hot day,' and it turns out that way. 56 "You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?
NAS
Let me first say that the discussion of the ‘end times’ is often scary for many people.
Fear comes from ignorance. Fear of the unknown is why people are scared of ‘end times’ discussion.
But I hope to make it known to you.
Supernatural evidence exists that we are living in the end times.
According to the Bible, which we will see has overwhelming evidence of God as the Author, the end times will be exciting for the believer in Jesus Christ.
The believer is protected and even promoted at the return of Christ.
This will begin the greatest period in all of human history, it is not ‘the end’ for believers.
It is not the end of history, but Christ’s return will be the opening event in the greatest adventure in the history of mankind.
The greatest single theme in Scripture is the Second Coming of Christ.
While there are approximately 300 Old Testament passages that predict the first Coming of the Messiah, to die for the sins of the world, there are over 2400 verses in the Old and New Testament that reveal God’s promise of the return of Christ, to rule the earth in perfect environment.
So my question to you now is, are you going to choose to believe and have faith alone in Christ alone and spend eternity with God the Father, and make that choice while you are still alive or are you going to choose to not believe and have faith alone in Christ alone, and spend everlasting life in the lake of fire (the second death)? It is your choice.
"I believe in God the Almighty.
"I do not believe He has ever sent a message to man by anybody, or delivered one to him by word of mouth, or made Himself visible to mortal eyes at any time in any place.
"I believe that the Old and New Testaments were imagined and written by man, and that no line in them was authorized by God, much less inspired by Him.
"I think the goodness, the justice, and the mercy of God are manifested in His works: I perceive that they are manifested toward me in this life; the logical conclusion is that they will be manifested toward me in the life to come, if there should be one."
--Mark Twain
God's answer from the Word of God to Mark Twain..
2 Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
2 Peter 1:20-21, “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
1 Thessalonians 2:4, “But just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men but God, who examines our hearts.”
Gen 2:16-17, “The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
John 1:1-3, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
John 14:6, “Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
Matt 4:4, “But He answered and said, "It is written, "MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.”
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;
Gal 1:3-5, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.”
Acts 16:31 "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."
My prayers are with you.
However, one can't force oneself to believe in something. One can't have faith in something one finds ludicrous. And I've never understood how quoting the Bible to an unbeliever is supposed to convince.
shareNo, actually some guy claimed that god said all that. And you're reading probably the translation of the translation of a translation, edited by some King who wanted it written the way he chose and left parts out I'm sure.
Besides that there are a LOT of religions out there. Are you sure you have the right one?
You are? Well so are all the others out there. You're right. But so is every other religion. You're all right. Because you are trying to be good and just and do the right thing. And THAT's the truth. There are some religions out there that don't believe in jesus at all. They'll still go to whatever heaven they believe in when they die. I hope you believe that and want that for them. If you don't, then you might want to rethink what kind of religion you have. One that doesn't wish good for all mankind worries me.
rant over
I find it interesting that you chose to use the subject of the discussion to defend that same subject. It is by faith alone that you can accept the words of the bible as originating from the mouth of God. Each human being is an island unto himself and, as such, will choose to believe in something of his own free will. Some will do so based on feelings, some based on logic, still others based on what they percieve to be "proof." If you seek to bring to another what you believe to be the wisdom and teachings of God through the medium of the bible, using the bible as a reference to its own authenticity is less than convincing. Anyone can write a book with a "truth" and argue that said book is true because it says it is. Stating that the Bible is the definitive word of God is a matter of faith.
Personally, I see evidence in all life around me that there is a "God." Things occur in my life constantly that reaffirm that to me. Things happen regulary to me and my family that cause me to ask why, and later, in the course of events further in life, I realize that without those events, we would not be where we are today and would most likely be in much worse shape. I am thankful for the blessings that I have in life and know that my life has purpose.
What I cannot do is provide any evidence that the Bible, Q'uran, Torah or any other book purporting to be the word of God is inspired by God. Many of these books contain morality stories that all people can learn from. There are also aspects of all of these books that may be twisted to cruel purpose, and as such, call to question the idea that they are divinely inspired. The majority of wars throughout history have been waged due to a difference in thought, whether political, economical or religious. Terrorists of recent years justify their actions using religious texts. The Bible is no exception to this.
There are also many other gospels and scrolls that have been discovered throughout the years that are positioned as additional testimony to the life of Jesus, and men in high religious positions convene to attempt to determine the validity of these documents. These individuals posit that they are working under the guidance of God to make these determinations. Where is such divine guidance in the ministries of these people who either commit acts such as sodomy to a child or bring people into those ministries who can commit such acts? This form of logic would lead one to believe that the innocence of a child would be less worthy of divine interaction than validating a new potential gospel or testament. If there is divine inspiration, it should be present in all actions by those who lead religious organizations.
I harbor no ill will towards anyone for standing by their convictions. In life, there are few certainties and much of life depends on believing in something (having faith.) What I am saying here is that any one of us could be incorrect, but is that of real importance so long as we live our lives to respect each other, try to be the best people that we can be and make a positive difference in the world?
And for those of you who would say that Satan uses this kind of thinking to remove us from the grace of God, I would like to argue that this is also a product of faith, as the existence of Satan is also advocated by the Bible. The bottom line is that faith is the driving factor for belief in any religion. Is the faith of a Muslim any more or less valid than that of a Christian or a Jew? Each has the unshakable conviction that he adheres to the "true" faith.
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Him and prefers an eternity in Hell. This is evidence that's she either insane (who in their right mind when faced with Final Judgement would choose to burn in Hell?)
>>>Exactly. Pride goeth before the fall.
She was too prideful to admit God didn't
create hell on earth. Man did it to himself.
We have free minds but some will always chose
evil over good.
jtpaladin: this movie is far from christian. its based on cultism. i dont know what bible youve read but the things that went on in this movie were far from what it says in mine. even the rapture is not mentioned as such in the bible, its is a belief of some sects of the christian faith, not all. and the woman mimi rogers played was certainly not a christian, but a very disturbed woman whose child suffered as a result. i loved the symbolizm of this movie. but if youre looking for an end times movie, this isnt the one if you want to actually see it as evangelical christians do. most evangelical christians would walk out of this movie in disgust. i personally think its a very good and disturbing movie
shareI interpret this film more literally. It examines Sharon's faith on its own terms. This particular chiliastic cult has some elements that are (IMHO) very off-beat (i.e., the pearl and the boy), but it basically fits into the groups who take the Second Coming as very literal and very near. Sharon’s march up the hill in the desert to await the end of the world reminded me of William Miller’s group (of thousands) who sold their possessions and took to the hills in New York in 1843. The difference was that Sharon and her daughter went alone. Perhaps this was an echo of Abraham and Isaac, but there is no suggestion in the movie that God told Sharon to sacrifice her daughter as a sort of test.
The question the movie ends on is this: What if her group’s vision of reality was true and she actually saw it to be true? Would that mandate or cause belief? The bars fell, the horsemen rode, Sharon was “caught up” to somewhere. Sharon saw her daughter who told her that heaven was waiting. The deputy believed and disappeared (went to heaven). Sharon was asked by her daughter if she could see heaven (and Sharon said she could).
The question of faith was no longer if Sharon could believe in her mind. Everything pointed to her religion being true. But that reality (which included her killing her daughter) was not acceptable to her. Even if that is the way things really are, she would not join in. In part, she could not forgive herself for killing her daughter and she said that she could not forgive God who had let it happen (even though God used the act to bring the daughter to “a better place”).
In the end, embracing God on God’s terms (whatever those may be) is not a matter of having enough evidence to believe, but having a heart that trusts, even a heart that loves God.
All that said, I don’t share this group’s vision of reality and I don’t see it as Biblical Christianity. I do think the question asked about faith is a universal one.
I think the point of the ending is that so many organized religions concentrate on the word of God through man that concentrate on God himself is what truly separates those who spiritual from those are religious. that's why those who confessed their sins, regardless of what they did before were saved, why she wasn't. She wasn't because she resolved her religious self, not her spiritual self. If she did, she still wouldn't have been in turmoil. I've meant so-called religious people who only welcome you in their church if you look a certain way or contribute a lot of money. That's not God's way or Christ's way. I'm meant athethists who are the most giving and morally center people I've ever meant
shareOk, God raptured her. And very few get raptured. So, what does that say?
share[deleted]
Seemed as if everything that occurred after she fell asleep in the prison cell was a dream. Also seemed the resolution wasn't flattering to fundamentalism, showed how being a zealous true believer of anything (not necessarily radical christianity) was a dead end. I mean, folks, she MURDERED her daughter. In the name of god? What's crazier?
The late great Senator Barry Goldwater of AZ called the theocratic right "a bunch of kooks." Goldwater might've liked this movie.
Oh, for any of the wonderfully "tolerant" fundamentalists in the American taliban who dismiss out of hand any interpretation of the film by "non-christians" might want to keep in mind one needn't be in the mafia to form an opinion of "The Godfather." Nor does one need to be an alien to critique "Star Wars." Amen.
I believe that, I am a free spirit forever. I believe in God, Jesus, and Mary but I don't believe in the bible or the church. I definately don not believe that God would destroy our world, I believe that we (human beings) could destroy it. (I said could not will or destined to destroy it)
Anyways I liked the movie and I wish that my bible thumping friend would see this and understand why I stop believing in the bible. I know that there is such a thing as 'overload religion' or 'religion overload'.
One thing about religious discussions: People use too many damn words in them, and say either a) nothing or b) the same thing over and over again. People also bombard scripture that may or may not apply to the actual original point. That strikes me as just too easy. It lets you communicate without actually using your mind to understand the other party's point. It also makes your religion look bad.
On another note, I firmly believe that if there were 100 atheists sitting in that jail cell at the end and started hearing trumpets (not to mention seeing the bars of the prison falling off) 99 of 'em would be facedown on the floor doing some hardcore prayage before the third note. I've met many atheists who have valid reasons for being so, but I've met just as many who chose atheism by default because they had better things to do than research religion.
As for the movie, all messages aside, I basically gathered that God brought her to the desert, and she got impatient, started willing the End on her own timetable, not God's divine plan. Whether she screwed up, and blamed God for allowing her to screw up, or Satan just got to her, I don't know. The point is, if she'd waited another day before blowing her (incredibly mouthy & annoying) kid, she'd still have had that innocent faith she had before.
I wish there'd been more time in the movie to explore her post-daughter-assassination "awakening", because that's an issue that plagues MANY practicers of all monotheistic religions, myself included. I look at it this way: There are three kinds of religious people. 1. Those who believe and practice what they've been taught -without question-, and stay happily ignorant of WHY their faith is what it is. 2. Those who seek to know the unaltered, unabriged roots of what evolved to become the faith they practice, and 3. Those who are a mix of 1 and 2, but have better things to do than worry about it. I think that's what this movie was attempting to explore; the belief that "Knowledge is the enemy of faith" (someone tell me who originally said/wrote that. I've forgotten).
It always amazes me when I hear Christians tell Jews/Muslims/Hindus/Buddhists they're going to hell, yet those same Jews/Muslims/Hindus/Buddhists often know more about Christianity than the Christian does. Someone needs to write a tract for Christians called "10 things you didn't know about your own religion" and make it required reading. Include things like just how interrelated Judaism, Islam and Christianity really are. Show the tree that all three sprang from. Tell 'em how most of their heraldry, symbolism, ceremonies and identifying characteristics (like Christmas trees) are borrowed from other religions, cults and paganism. Explain to them that there were other contemporaries of Jesus that claimed to be the messiah, they also supposedly performed miracles and incredible feats. Explain why those religions died out, yet Christianity caught on. Tell them that the Catholic Church version bible wasthe Douay-Rheims Bible consisting of 73 books, but the Protestant church only has the 66 books approved by the Archbishop of Canterbury as the King James Bible. Tell 'em that there's around 26-28 other books that some spiritual leader decided were too redundant, or weren't relevant (given the difficulty in printing at that time).
Modern Christianity is so far removed from its roots, it amazes me. Christians wonder why people don't flock to God, but ask them "If I get saved, then spend the rest of my life raising spectacular hell, do I go to heaven if I *really* meant it when I got saved" According to most Christian churches, "Yep! but you're gonna get it at the last judgment first!" Or, ask them at what age a child loses his Auto-heaven pass if he dies unsaved? You won't find many christians who believe that God sends unsaved fetuses, babies or toddlers that die to an eternity in hell. Nor will you find many who believe the same of a 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 year old child. But when does the child become accountable? Ask your pastor that. Catholics cover it with the baptism thing. Protestants don't get that benefit. Darn.
At any rate, it raises serious questions. The fact that most Protestant religions answer is "We don't know" only serves to reinforce the point that the religion being practiced isn't based on its roots at all.
Or, ask yourself (or your pastor, for those who can't think for themselves) this. If all unsaved people go to hell, what happened to the ~50 million people who lived from 1-1500 A.D. who lived in inaccessable, unexplored areas? Post-1500, man had acquired the means to reach most inhabited areas on Earth, so after that point it's our fault if they weren't Christianized. But before then? Do all ~50 Million of them go to hell by default?
When you really stop to look at the beliefs of modern faith - ANY faith. A lot of them cease to make any sense whatsoever. Take the above example. Do I really believe God would condemn 50 million unsaved souls to hell, when it was completely impossible for them to *ever* become saved? No. A just and loving God would not do such a thing. What's more, do I want to worship a God who would consider such an act just? Again, No. The same thing applies to the "At what age are we accountable for our sins?" example. Do I believe God sends an unsaved 14yr old child to an eternity in hell? No. I find that prospect highly disturbing. What of a 21yr old? A 35yr old? There's no clear definition, which leads me to believe that this doctrine of heaven or hell is just plain wrong. If God is loving and just, how can it be any other way? I could almost accept the concept of Limbo, or multiple layers of Heaven, as that would easily explain all those who fall through the cracks of Christianity, but the church doesn't teach that, so it MUST be wrong. Right?
My final, distilled point is this: Man is innately and infinitely fallible. Religion that is interpreted and taught by man is no different. Learn for yourself why you believe what you believe. Only then can it truly be personal.
-K
Me - IMDB http://imdb.com/name/nm1485711/
--------[fear the bible-thumpers]-------
kelani, I really like your take on this. Too many "idiot savant" Christians recite scripture without really knowing what it means, choosing a meaning that fits their biases, and never really give a thought to Christ's actual message.
Hey, thanks Avenger! (nice handle, btw) I grew up Southern Baptist, and being an overly-inquisitive, intelligent kid growing up in that culture definitely made me aware of the fallacy, ignorance, intolerance and general idiocy that permeates most organized religion. It also embarrassed the hell out of me. After that, I decided a major part of my own spiritual discovery path would be to learn all I could about every religion, with the original intent to take the best of all of them and congeal it into a package I could live with. The upshot of that is, now every time I see a religious debate, I can be objective, and accept the differing opinions on their own merits instead of what *I* think. And the one thing I see, more than anything else, are Christians of ALL denominations snuffing intelligent debate with frenzied pasting of quasi-applicable scriptures, usually without actually attempting to understand the other posters' points. In my experience, the worst for this "condemning-of-others" behavior are Protestant Evangelicals (Fundamentalists), then Baptists (Southern mostly), Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons with the Catholics being last) To the non-Christians who have to deal with this, it must seem like talking to a tape recording. It's sad, though. These people trying so hard to do something they believe is good, only to have any credibility destroyed by their overwhelmingly patronizing, ignorant and intolerant methods.
I guess for some people, it's simply because they accept their faith as presented by others at face value, and are content with that. Others, I think it's just an issue of laziness. "Only learn and do enough to get to Heaven". Either way, it makes Christians as a whole look like a bunch of brainwashed morons, which is unfortunate.
Don't get me wrong, other religions are guilty of this to varying degrees, with the militant Islamists being an example of taking it WAY too far. Not to defend their actions, but at least they are, as a rule, extremely well-versed in the history, evolution and tenets of their religion, which due to it's ties with other religions, makes them more familiar with the history and personalities of Christianity and Judaism than many Christians and Jews.
I just wish people spouting religion and scripture at others would stop and think before doing so. Think about just how much you KNOW about your faith, from where you learned it, and from where THAT person learned it. You will realize that, no matter how wonderful your teacher was, they were a human with biases and flaws, taught by another human, also with biases and flaws. Multiply that across several hundred generations of humans, and you have human-induced change that may or may not be correct. There's only 3 ways to combat this. You could learn Greek, Latin and Syrian Aramaic, get access to a bunch of old scrolls, and read from the original sources. Or, you could absorb the current menu of interpretations and accept them as fact. Or, you could look at the history of your faith, then look at it's modern equivalent, and find a compromise you can live with.
Unfortunately, most people just take what Preacher Bob says as The Truth, and anyone who disagrees, well, they're obviously going to hell...
In the 13 years I've been posting on various electronic fora/forums, I can't even remember how many times a Christian has told me (also a Christian, albeit non-affiliated with any major denomination) that I'm going *promptly* to hell when I die, simply because I challenged their statements by asking questions they couldn't answer, or asked them to back up said statements with something besides than a line of scripture (which may or may not have had any relevance to the issue.) Conversely, I've never had a *single* Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Animist, Jainist, Pagan or practitioner of any other religion, big or small, say anything half as presumptuous and stupid to me.
Christians need to learn the origins of Christianity. Learn why we do what we do. Learn how religious and political figures have corrupted, shaped and distilled Christianity into something I doubt Jesus would recognize. Then, we need to wrap our heads around the paradox that our religion prepetuates, which says this loving and forgiving God has, and will continue to condemn innocent, unsaved souls to burn in Hell for eternity. It makes no sense, and should leave a bad feeling in the pit of a rational person's stomach. As I stated in the previous post, if God sends a 11yr old child to hell for eternity because he is unsaved, then he cannot be considered loving and forgiving. Ergo, if you are to believe in a loving and forgiving God, then you have to believe there are exceptions, or that We Just Don't Know.
For the record, I don't believe there is an answer. I do believe that it's a question we're not meant to understand, and therefore, we never will. However, I do believe that affirming the paradoxes exist, and discussing them rationally, can only be a good thing for the faith. That and accepting that since We Just Don't Know, we have no right whatsoever to dismiss and ridicule the spiritual beliefs of others.
End of rant. :) Man, I could go on about this all damn day if I let myself.
I need more hobbies.
-K
Me - IMDB http://imdb.com/name/nm1485711/
--------[just say no to prosetylizing]-------
This is the best thing I've seen written about this subject. Thank you so much Kelani
shareposted by paladin....
The problem is that Mimi's character went nuts somewhere along the way and then at the end blames God and even though her own daughter begs her to accept God, she denies Him and prefers an eternity in Hell. This is evidence that's she either insane (who in their right mind when faced with Final Judgement would choose to burn in Hell?) or the film-makers are trying to make some silly statement that doesn't for a moment stand a chance in reality. Also known as a form of the "Hollywood Ending
She was doomed as soon as she believed her own actions were going to earn her a spot in heaven.
THAT is the problem with fundamentalists, kelani, not the oversimplified argument you gave. Most fundamentalists believe they are so good, they can earn their way into heaven - and this type of thinking is not only arrogant but dangerous, as was the case with the character of Sharon. She thought her own acts could carry her through the tough times, and when they didn't, what does she do? She blames God. Typical fundamentalist (and human) behavior.
True Christianity puts what Christ did on Calvary as the basis for salvation for all mankind. That's why every atheist on these message boards get so aggrevated at Christians - because it's too simple.
Well, God made it that way for a reason. We human beings overcomplicate everything we do and that just confuses all of us running around dealing with whatever life throws at us. If she had simply put her hope in Christ, and what He had done, she quite possibly may not have dispaired they way she did.
And if you think that is a fallacy, I have met many Christians who have gone through some very trying times in their lives and they have not dispaired or lost their hope in Christ...and why? Because Christ is the one carrying their load, not they themselves.
Thats why true Christians are different. They experience all the same things in life that everyone else does, but they have hope for salvation through their savior, and that will bring true peace.
This was a great movie, but its also a sad one.
Sola Gratia/Sola Fide/Solus Christus
That's why every atheist on these message boards get so aggrevated at Christians - because it's too simple.
If these "Christians" cannot defend their faith without resorting to name calling, then they are not only poor Christians but poor examples of human beings as well.
I know why I am a Christian, but it is also the main reason I am scoffed at in life. I am a Christian because the Holy Spirit has created faith in my heart through the Gospel. (insert loud guffaws here!) I didn't have it on my own and there was no way I could even look for Christ on my own, because I am dead in my sins and transgressions.
Real evangelism only takes place when Gods word is taught in its truth and purity, with humility and love, and it is the only thing that has the power to work on the crusty shell of an atheists heart.
Sola Gratia/Sola Fide/Solus Christus
The director, Tolkin, actually came up with the movie after he read a bumper sticker saying 'car will be abandoned in case of rapture' or something along those lines and then he read about a case of a parent murdering her children because "God told her to." The point of the movie, as the director intended it anyway, was to investigate what kind of circumstance could lead someone to this action, belief, etc.
Now if he accomplished this and what people come away from this movie with is totally up for debate. I personally don't think Tolkin was very successful, but to each his own.