When does this movie take place? I saw it last night and the plot details said it was the 1860's. Would Australians have heard of Dodge City that early. The big cattle drives to Dodge were in the 1870's and 1880's. Any thoughts?
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It would be sometime arround 1872 or '73 because the cartridge Sharps was just being tested, as Marston says in the movie "An experimental rifle for an experimental cartridge". Quigley`s rifle is probably a '63 Cartridge Conversion rifle that was the forerunner of the '74 Sharps. If it was '72 or even '73 then the Ausies may not have had the 1873 Colt, as Colt had it`s hands full trying to outfit America with the cartridge revolvers at the time.
shareIt was likely much later than 1874 because the rifle had seen obvious use and Quigley's established expertise ("you get used to it [the weight]"). James Hickok suffered glaucoma and was probably already dead by then (killed in 1876) and Quigley stated that Dodge City was a nice place to sleep. The guns in this part of Australia would have been very "behind" most of the updated American guns - after all this is the Outback! Quigley's trip to Fremantle took 3 months AFTER he answered Marston's ad. Quigley's outfit and skills would have been typical Buffalo Bill Wild West show in the early days (1883), but his character would have despised the showman life as too shallow and answering the ad could have been the start of a new life (watch the opening scenes closely). Marston's line about "born late" and in the "wrong continent" could have also applied to Quigley - the right man for the American Old West born 30 years too late.
shareFrom what I have read (sources are packed away for moving, sorry), the cap-n-ball revolvers did not suddenly disappear after 1873; it was fairly common to see them in photos taken throughout the 1880s. Many people considered sidearms much like tools at the time, i.e. "if it isn't broke, why fix it?". Marston's workers obviously felt a need for revolvers, both for usual "cowboy chores" (dispatching wounded livestock, snakes, etc) as well as defense against natives...but it seems that the Aborigines had not embraced firearms the way the Native Americans did.
All of that said, "Cartridges of the World" says the longer .45 caliber Sharps cartridges were introduced between 1876 and 1879, with Quigley's .45-110 being the last of them.
Assuming the movie decided to be accurate regarding the British Army uniforms then it would have to be prior to 1873 when the shako was abolished in favor of the "Foreign Service Helmet" aka the pith helmet and the fact that the soldiers are still carrying what appear to be Snider-Enfield rifles which were replaced in 1871 with the Martini-Henry rifle.
Granted the change over probably did not happen instantly (especially in the more remote outposts of the British Empire) so I will say the movie probably takes place around 1875 or so.
Problem I always had with it is that all the pistols are cap and ball. Again, Oz is a long way from America, so the import could have taken awhile. The Sharps itself was made into the 1900's, so that's not a real indication. Probably the best bet was the British military guns. I think your timeframe is aobut right. 1875-85 is probably the best bet.
"First God created idiots. That was for practice. Then he created school boards." Mark Twain
--
Writes redcoyote:
"Problem I always had with it is that all the pistols are cap and ball."
That could appear so, but in the period following the War of Northern Aggression, the many cap-and-ball pistols in common use (Colt, Remington, etc.) were readily converted to accept cartridges. The modifications could be made by any reasonably competent gunsmith, and there were factory conversions as well.
The fact that the rammer was left on these pistols after conversion (removing one would've changed the weapon's balance as well as quite possibly weakening the frame) might cause the inadequately informed viewer to believe that they were still in their original cap-and-ball firing condition.
On the cylinders (as with breasts), you've got to look for the nipples. The conversions don't have 'em.
In 1868, the 1858 Remington New Model Army appears to have been the first percussion revolver converted to fire a metallic cartridge, while the Model 1851 .36-caliber Navy was perhaps the single most popular privately owned handgun in the American West, "soldiering on" in the hands of the citizenry through the latter half of the 19th Century.
The cost differential between an easily converted military surplus revolver ($5 or less) and a purpose-manufactured cartridge revolver ($12 at minimum) was substantial, especially in an era when the US dollar actually represented real monetary metal and you could purchase a good meal in a restaurant for about ten cents.
Oh good! My dog found the chainsaw!
the War of Northern Aggression
Crazy Cory called herself a Texican. That term died out in the late 1860's.
shareDoesn't help place the date much, as it's never stipulated how long she had been in Australia.
"It just so happens we be Texicans. A Texican is nothing but a human man way out on a limb. This year and next, and maybe for a hundred more. But I don't think it'll be forever. Some day this country's gonna be a fine, good place to be. Maybe it needs our bones in the ground before that time can come." Mrs.Jorgensen, mid 1870's.
"if it was any good they'd have made an American version by now." Hank Hill
"It just so happens we be Texicans. A Texican is nothing but a human man way out on a limb. This year and next, and maybe for a hundred more. But I don't think it'll be forever. Some day this country's gonna be a fine, good place to be. Maybe it needs our bones in the ground before that time can come." Mrs.Jorgensen, mid 1870's.
Crazy Cory called herself a Texican. That term died out in the late 1860's.
That is completely incorrect. Some folks from Texas, still use the term, today.
BTW, it is spelled Texian, not Texican.
This website will tell you a little more about the term, and its use.
http://www.texianlegacy.com/main.html
What, just for once in your life can't you be serious?
Texican is NOT the same as Texian. Both terms were used, as were Texasian, and Texonian.
"if it was any good they'd have made an American version by now." Hank Hill
Well, two years after this was posted (and I'll ignore the 'War of Northern Aggression') even on a small computer screen you can see all the pistols, without exception, are cap and ball, with caps on nipples. Nothing odd about it...casting balls from lead is relatively low tech and in a few scenes in the movie, like Marsten leaving a pistol on the table outside where you can see cap and ball tools, and Cora loading the pistol in the cave. Buying ammo in the Outback would have been much hard then getting caps, powder, etc. None of the pistols show were conversions, like in the Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns.
shareProblem is, Marston's pistol. He refers to it as a "recent invention", which, since it is a cap and ball Colt Army revolver, would place the date at 1860 or just after. However Quigley carries an 1874 Sharps rifle with a metallic cartridge. There again, Colt brought out a new model Army Colt (metallic cartridge) in 1873, therefore Marston could legitimately be referring to this pistol if the story takes place after 1874. This is not the model he's carrying, though, which may be an error on the part of the filmmakers.
"Duck, I says..."
I think that "recent invention" has to be taken in context of the time. 5-10 years would be recent for most things back then. It isn't like today where innovations come about daily.
Also consider that Wild Bill Hickok didn't gain legendary status until the late 1860s. Something else to consider is the 45-110 cartridge of Quigley's, although it would have been known as the 45-2 and 7/8ths - it didn't exist as the 45-110 at that point. It would have been an innovation of the 45-70 government, which was invented in 1873, so this movie has to be at least 1874 or later, which brings up the point that no one was using a Colt 1873 Single Action Army revolver. That could be for a number of reasons though - it may not have been available in Austrailia yet at that time.
My name is Gladiator - Maximus Decimus Meridiusshare
Guns and ammo was expensive even back in the 1870's, my guess the movie takes place sometime in the late 1870's enough time for him to sharpen his skills shooting at Buffalo on the range.
Also it was very common for years in the west for people to still be carrying cap and ball pistols (see pricing)
and many were converted over to cartridge
and things did move slow so technology may not make 15,000 miles in a matter of weeks.
I noticed Marsten's Men all had single shot muskets rather than even a martini-henry or rossi rifles
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