Did they or didn't they?


Ok this is probably really stupid but I need to know whether Ann and Graham did have sex at the end of her interview (when he lays her down on the couch and turns off the camcorder)? I've always thought they did and that Ann "cured" him of his impotence. Some people I spoke to agreed but others have said no, they didn't because that would lower the two characters to the level of Cynthia and John in a moral sense. I know it's not terribly important in the great scheme of things concerning the movie, but I would just like to know. Anybody?

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I think they did. Ann is a different woman when she visits her sister in the bar - much more relaxed and accepting of Cynthia and at the end, when she and Graham are sitting together and he is stroking her arm, they certainly looked as though they belonged together.

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Yeah I'm thinking that too - it just kind of falls into place at the end and it feels natural for them to take the next step together.

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There is nothing in the film that would really be "evidence" that they did, however there is a logical conclusiveness that leads you there. If not then, in the particular scene referred to, it wasn't much later that they did. The question of morality raised by comparing anything that John & Cynthia did to what Graham and Ann may have done becomes academia. Their actions, as a reflection of their intentions, are comparable only in their great contrasts. As someone else pointed out (in part at least), these two (Graham & Ann) became different people because of the mutual stimulus that they provided for each other. In the beginning of the film they were both dysfunctional, but, I feel, that was due to their inability relate to the basically superficial and base natures of the people who were in their environment (Elizabeth included). They were both far too delicate, in the sense of refined, and inwardly honest and sensitive to function in such a banal atmosphere. Ann was right to reject Cynthia's attitude towards men as something distasteful, but there wasn't a man around her worthy of her tenderness and caring interest, so she tried to direct these attitudes into worthwhile things to care about e.g., the starving people etc. She appeared as a nut simply because there was no social sphere for her to be truly normal. Graham was basically in the same boat. He was crippled after he realized (earlier in his life) that all his externalized aggression was displaced frustration. As a result, he more or less castrated himself. He couldn't get it up, because he had killed out either superficial or base desire, and hadn't run into anyone to inspire the type of deeper (or higher) admiration and love that would motivate him. While John & Cynthia's relationship was symbiotic for the worse, Graham & Ann's took them both in an upward direction.
People who don't care for this film, I suppose tend to be more of the John & Cynthia types. This all reminds me of the Charlotte and Samantha dynamic in "Sex and the City".

(PRN) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id-bFpYQzXE

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Oh they did....

If they didn't why did Graham turn the camera off? They would just go on talking and touching each other (maybe).
They clue is, I think, that these two sexually dysfunctional people started feeling at ease with thei sexuality when together. It is as if they discovered a whole new world... And the body language at the end of the film says it all.

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Turning off the camera was "evidence" only of the end or conclusion of Graham's past; no longer does he need this crutch. It was like the end of a chapter where you are supposed to then fill in the ending. Like I said it is pretty clear where it goes or at least is supposed to go. The last scene where he greets her as she "comes home" while he waits on the porch and they talk about the rain, is closure.

(PRN) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id-bFpYQzXE

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You nailed it. Couldn´t be explained better.

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I rather like that we don't quite know.

In the original script, in reply to John's interrogation, Ann says she didn't *beep* Graham. I prefer the film version where we don't know precisely if she did or not. She would have looked guilty about what she did whether or not his ******** ended up inside her ************ (random number of asterisks).

It's not about whether or not his ******** stayed hard for long enough for them to actually *beep*

The point is not whether he overcame his impotence on that particular occasion. The point is that it was his first attempt in years to actually connect directly with a sexual partner. He made a real attempt to connect with her and to please her in a sexual way. That is the important thing.

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This is nicebat, my cyberpet.

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It seems to me that impotency is not something that is "overcome", in the same sense that insomnia is not overcome. There is something preventing an otherwise naturally occurring shift in consciousness. In both cases, it traces back to some undermining of instinctive functioning because of a hyper-ego uncertainty. (Not exactly a clinical definition but close enough to draw attention to the dynamic involved). Graham, from bad experience, became distrustful of his instinctive life and could not trust to give his heart to another until he found someone trustworthy. Cynthia became painfully aware of the difference between these two aspects of men, i.e., the instinctive response and the spiritual response, when she could compare how unsatisfying John was to her videoed encounter with Graham. (She left Graham on fire, but nothing John had to offer could touch her where she needed to be touched, and he touched her everywhere that a body could touch.)

(PRN) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id-bFpYQzXE

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I saw this film a number of years ago and then again just recently. I think that those several years ago I may have wondered about Graham's character and his impotency issue for the end of the film...but now not so much.

What strikes me about the film now is the lack of intimacy in all the characters lives. They are close in a geographical/familial sense but there is no real closeness between any of the characters and the barriers are made stronger by omissions and lies. Graham and Ann have both decided to withdraw physically as a means of coping with this lack of connection.

The end of the film demonstrates both Ann and Grahams willingness to cross their respective boundaries for a chance at something more than an empty relationship that is based on lies.

More powerful than potency

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If every time that you open your mouth and say something you observe that no one in your environment responds as if you said anything, after a while you would stop talking and find other ways to channel you energies. After a long enough time, you might even think that you're a little nuts and as you attempt to compensate. Those same people in your circle who ignore you would begin to notice that just how nuts you are. That is what happened to Graham and Ann. Until they found each other and noticed that there was something to what they had to offer, because there was someone else who understood what they had to give. Cynthia became aware of this deeper realm only because a longing had been stirred in her that she couldn’t get quenched in the regular way. This film was about how externalities among superficial people simply don't respond to the internalities of deeper, more sensitive ones. This is about the contrast between two-dimensional and three-dimensional people. So expressions like closeness or lies don't reach deep enough to do justice to the gulfs that existed amongst them.

(PRN) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id-bFpYQzXE

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Perfectly said.

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"I might be a Gung-Fu expert... but I need cash!"

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simplypm2004,

I realize your posts here are quite old, but I just saw this movie for the first time, and was so impressed with it that I wanted to read some discussions about it. I could read your posts about this movie all day long. Sadly, there aren't enough. Thank you for taking the time to write out your thoughts. I feel like you're the only one on these boards that really understood what was going on in this movie.

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"I might be a Gung-Fu expert... but I need cash!"

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I don't think it's stupid, scarymonster33. But as for me, personally I don't care if they did.. I really like that that was left to our imagination because it (Graham being physically "cured" by Ann at that moment) was just not the point. The point for me is that Ann had confronted him and touched him in a level no one seems to be able to (at least not since Elizabeth), she healed his spirit. Graham suggests that his lies kept him from connecting with anyone in a deeper level; when he tries to give up the lies it seems he also gives up the hope for connection.. until he is really ready for it. I think it's deliciously ironic that the pathological liar is the most honest character in the story.. Ann then forces him out of his shell, and he can finally be in a truthful, meaningful relationship.

I like the fact that we don't see what happened after Graham turned off the camera, because anything would be too final. And I don't think having sex at that time would lower them to Cynthia and John's level, not at all, because the way I see it it's not about morals.

I think it would be nice if they hadn't even tried, though; I like the idea of Ann curing him, but just not yet. If I had to form an opinion, I would say he just held her, and they kissed and talked..

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Yes but the expression on Ann's face afterwards looked to me as if one way or another she had experienced an orgasm.

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Yes but the expression on Ann's face afterwards looked to me as if one way or another she had experienced an orgasm.
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Yes, they were both quite curious about what she would look like having one. Although obviously the phrase "one way or another" clearly implies that he might or might not have overcome the impotence to provide one.
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This is nicebat, my cyberpet.

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Exactly.

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There are some people who just seem a bit confused about that.

"How on Earth could he give her an orgasm! He cannot be impotent! He must meant that he is celibate but only claiming to be impotent! It's all terribly complicated, because that means that actually he is still a liar and not a former-liar-in-recovery! What are the implications????"

Glad that we are not amongst this sweet but confused/confusing bunch!

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This is nicebat, my cyberpet.

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Very simple.

She cured him of his impotence and he gave her an orgasm. No doubts here. And people, you don't have to *beep* someone to have an orgasm. She says she 'didn't *beep* him. Fine! The ending scene says it all.

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And people, you don't have to *beep* someone to have an orgasm.
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I swear, there are people who don't get it at all!

She leaves us guessing as to whether she beeped him: her guilty look when John interrogates her could mean they did or they didn't.
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Nicebat and I had to party.

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I've just read an interview with Soderbergh where he says:-

"In the early version of the film it was very, very clear that they didn' have sex. And in a stunning reversal Bob Newmeyer, one of my producers, suggested I make some cuts to make it less obvious whether or not something happened. Sometimes I still don't know if we even went far enough."


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I looked at the script book again, and in it she tells John she didn't beep him.

Bravo, Bob Newmeyer! Your suggestion was brilliant!


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Nicebat and I had to party.

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Further thought. Unless Ann was on the Pill, they probably didn't have any means of contraception, so that might have influenced their behaviour.
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Nicebat and I had to party.

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It's too big!

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I didn't care. The movie was that stupid.

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Of course they did. The intimacy between them at the end didn't spring from out of the blue.

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they certainly did something. it was pretty obvious in the scene between ann and her sister that ann was a changed woman. the implication of that scene was that she had had an orgasm and graham had given it to her.

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I know this is a super old topic but I want to point out to anyone reading this topic that

Some type of impotence where you can't get hard can be caused by depression and psychological issues.

The film explains that graham really hasn't had an erection with a woman for a long time.

When he turned off the camera when he was with Ann. I thought that it was because he experienced an erection for the first time since elizabeth and he felt like he didn't need the camera's anymore.

ann was the girl that cured his psychological or depression problems which led to him being able to get an erection.

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