I found the scenes with Patricia Barry, the older woman who meets with Al Pacino in the bar, particularly heartbreaking. He tells her, "We'll call you," and she says, "No, you won't." Later she sees him in the bar with Ellen Barkin, and she leaves in tears.
I guess Al couldn't have told her that the point of the meeting was a murder investigation, but it certainly would have helped ease the pain of rejection!
Pacino does that "I feel **** now cos you're hurting and I can't do anything about it" look like no-one else. See also Heat in the scene with the murdered girl's mother...
"That's right, put on the gloves. Don't attempt anything without the gloves."
Heartbreaking is the right word. What a sad, sad scene. It's not relevant to the murder investigation plot, but it's a little nugget of truth right in the middle of your face. Brilliantly played by both.
It was sad. She wasn't bad looking for her age, either. He could have bagged her.
shareI thought she was a red-hot babe, to hell wih age. Patricia Barry is the actresses' name, and she still don't look bad today.
shareWhat a great performance and a really nice touch in the film, to acknowledge the existence of figures like this on the singles scene and give them some humanity.
But I wouldn't call her "jilted" since no relationship had begun; she is disappointed or rejected.
I think you have to be involved in a relationship in order to be jilted; she was rejected from her point of view but it still hurt.
I'm glad I found this thread because I've never forgot this scene and she is wonderful in it.
You're very right: She'd have to be his lover to be rejected. I changed the title of this thread to "The rejected older woman." Thanks!
shareWe're all getting older, alas, and many of us have been jilted multiple times. It makes us stronger. Yes, I choose to believe that.
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just saw it today, so I'm waaayy late, anyhoo, I agree w/OP. It was a good scene. But I was hoping that we'd later see him explaining to the lady what was really going on, just for her closure and esteem. Sucks he didn't bother to clarify that. They coulda just closed with showing him have another glass of wine with her, or sumtin'.
shareBetter late than never, I say! You are very right: It would have been great had Detective Keller explained to her why she was rejected. I guess he didn't bother to think that some lonely hearts really depended on the personals ads to find a significant other -- it wasn't just a place where a killer found his victims. It's been a few years since I've seen this film, but he had the information to contact her and explain things, didn't he?
Thankfully, today those lost souls no longer have to turn to those impersonal personals for meet a lover, for we have the Internet. That's completely safe, right?
If you place it in the larger picture of police brutality as a whole, this incident was pretty benign!
That's very true. We should be more concerned about real-life cases like Rodney King and Abner Louima than a film in which an actress plays a woman who gets her feelings hurt!
shareIts a film, remember! Played for emotion & reaction. & any act of genuine compassion usually plays well & is appreciated!-
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Warped, one reason the scene plays so well and resonates so much is because they DIDN'T choose to do a "closure scene."
That would have sucked, believe me. SEA OF LOVE is a much better movie without it.
Excellent point, filmklassik! The woman's departure is as abrupt as her appearance, and that makes her unforgettable.
shareShe was the one who was reading Pacino's body english etc. and decided to walk away. I could see why she might have been hurt but not so much that she should have felt rejected.
In that sense I don't think she had to get so upset when she saw Pacino sitting with Barkin. She probably should have been relieved that she didn't get involved with him.
That said I thought it was a well played scene even with some flawed logic.
Astute observations, flicky-3! She seemed very much in control of her emotions, and yet somewhat ambivalent.
But that's what I like about that role, brief as it was. Here was a woman who was probably used to rejection, even anticipating it, yet still held out hope that she would connect with someone even when she received evidence to the contrary.
Honestly, I found her a lot more memorable than the rest of this film, and years later I still think of her brief scenes.
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I felt bad for her at first, but then I remembered that their personal ad said "White Male, 43" or something to that effect.
I think she set herself up for heartbreak. As she said, "I should have mentioned my age." YEAH, she should have! It's not realistic that a younger guy like would go for her. Sure, she was attractive, but how many guys would want to have a relationship with that kind of age difference between the genders. Not too many, I think.
She shouldn't have gone into it with high expectations. At least, not high enough to leave the restaurant in tears. Surely she has met with younger men in the past and has experience with rejection?
So, no, I don't feel bad for her now. Actually I feel more for Frank's character, because you see how guilty he feels when this happens, when he really has no reason to. He is so sweet and takes other people's hurt onto himself, even when it's not his fault/responsibility.
Did she really say she was looking for a 43-year-old male in her ad? I haven't seen this film for a while so I don't remember, but if she did, I agree it's misleading because she's quite a bit older than that. And I also suspect it wasn't the first time she was rejected on that basis.
Still, I found it hard not to feel sad for her when you saw the look in her eyes when she felt Frank had rejected her for a younger woman. But I guess that's just the reality of the singles scene and the personal ads. She was wounded, but at least she got out alive.
Today, of course, we have the Internet, and you know everyone's honest there!
Oh, I meant that Frank's ad specifically said "White male, 43" or to that effect.
So, the lady knew well in advance what she was getting into, AND she deliberately did *not* tell Frank her age beforehand. So, I see that as asking for trouble, and she should not have been surprised (or that disappointed) about how it ended.
"when you saw the look in her eyes when she felt Frank had rejected her for a younger woman."
What really happened: (And for some reason, people have not brought this up ..?)
The older lady appears to "leave," but actually ends up "hanging out" at the restaurant afterward, unbeknownst to Frank. She ends up *watching* while he meets with multiple other blind dates. Then, when he is alone again (between dates?) he looks up and sees her sitting at another table.
He looks mortified, and she looks offended, like maybe she is about to cry...?? and she gets up and leaves. I am not sure what they were trying to convey there. That she was really hurt for some reason ? Or that she found it offensive that Frank was multi-dating? (That's how I interpreted it, that she thought he was a womanizer or something.)
The part where he says he'll call, and she says "No you won't," happened earlier. I think she really walked right into it and was not justified in her reaction. Obviously, Frank probably didn't intend to call her again, but it's not like he would actually say so. He was just being polite, but she had to call him on it...?? That was unfair of her, I think.
Sorry, I misread your original post about "White male, 43." It would make sense it was his ad, not hers. And what is it about people placing personal ads and not giving their age – or lying about their age?
But anyway, about that scene:
It's been a few years since I've seen this film, and I have it stashed away somewhere, but maybe you can refresh my memory: What were the circumstances of Frank parting company with the woman? Did he say he had another engagement, or did it naturally come to a close? For some reason, I'm thinking Frank told her he had to leave, and she stayed at the bar for whatever reason, but then later she sees Frank there with a younger, sexier woman – Ellen Barkin, if I recall correctly. So I'm thinking she started crying because she thought she made a connection with someone who obviously lied to her about having to be somewhere else.
I totally agree, though, that basically calling Frank a liar by saying "No you won't" when he says he'll call was completely rude and reeks of desperation. I have met people, told them the same thing, and followed through on my promise. A follow-up call with someone doesn't necessarily mean you want to settle down with them or even see them again – it's just a polite thing to do. Occasionally, I've been hit with the same attitude as that woman used on Frank, and those are the people I definitely would not call.
"And what is it about people placing personal ads and not giving their age – or lying about their age?"
It is totally asking for trouble ! I don't get it. It can only end badly, because eventually you have to come clean, or the person finds out, or whatever. Case in point, this movie. Who wants to end up in a scene like that.
"But What were the circumstances of Frank parting company with the woman? Did he say he had another engagement, or did it naturally come to a close?"
LOL, actually, my copy has a big scratch in it and I never got to see the end of the scene except when I watched a rental, ages ago!! Funny thing is, he lined up blind dates every half hour or so (? When I think about it, that would probably be impractical), and the scenes are conveniently cut, from one woman to the next. He never actually has to break it off verbally with any of them, I don't think... ?
Maybe the older lady actually gets up after that and just leaves on her own..? Like she is offended and so is the one to break it off...
"but then later she sees Frank there with a younger, sexier woman – Ellen Barkin,"
From what I remember, at the moment the older lady sees Frank again and is in tears, he is actually *alone*... Like between dates ? Someone else will have to clarify this...
"So I'm thinking she started crying because she thought she made a connection with someone who obviously lied to her about having to be somewhere else."
Oh gosh... maybe.... ?? I really don't remember now. That could be !
"No you won't" when he says he'll call was completely rude and reeks of desperation."
Yeah, it sure doesn't make me feel compassion for her. I was surprised to find this thread, and read about how bad people felt about it ! I felt bad for Frank, not her.
I thought it was really weird that she even hung out there, too. After what happened, I would think she would want to get out of there fast..
"Occasionally, I've been hit with the same attitude as that woman used on Frank.."
Ugh. That would be awful in real life. How uncomfortable !
I really need to find my tape again to watch this scene, because my recollection is Frank kind of brushed her off when they appeared to be making a true connection. For his purposes, he got what he needed in investigating the crime and needed to move on to the next potential suspect (or was it witness?) in the killings.
Anyway, hopefully someone can reconstruct this scene for us, or maybe I'll find my tape in the meantime. I've watched this movie twice – once in the theater 20 years ago and again on tape a few years back – and that's the only scene that really stood out for me. So that speaks well of the scene, but not of the movie as a whole.
Here's how it goes with the older lady:
Lady: Well. What do we do now?
Frank: Well, I tell ya, I gotta pick up my son in a half hour, so it's umm...the timing's terrible.
Lady: Well, do you think we should have dinner sometime?
Frank: Oh, sure, we'll call ya.
Lady: We?
Frank: We? I said We?
Lady: Yes.
Frank: That's me. All day on the phone, that's all I'm doing. It's "We this, we that". Meaning my company, you know. I'll call you. I'll call you. Me.
Lady: No you won't. (Walks away)
(Two more ladies have dates with him, both of them leave pretty abruptly)
Then he spouts some stuff after the last one, Helen, like "Kiss my tiara, B!tch", and "How many more of these we got?". It's unsure if she hears all that, but she's looking right at him, and the "Kiss my tiara" bit was pretty loud, people were glaring at him.
Kinda harsh, but she should take it as him being a jerk, not a reflection on herself. On the other hand, I couldn't imagine being her age and being in that position. It's gonna hurt some way, depending on who you are.
and she gets up and leaves. I am not sure what they were trying to convey there. That she was really hurt for some reason ? Or that she found it offensive that Frank was multi-dating? (That's how I interpreted it, that she thought he was a womanizer or something.)
It is a very confusing scene, but years after seeing this film, it's the only one I remember. (Well, that and John Goodman singing "Sea of Love.")
For someone who used personal ads, she seemed to be taking this one brief encounter very seriously. And you are right: She'd probably flee from that restaurant pronto after feeling so rejected. Or maybe she wanted to stalk him.
My question really has to do with the other couple sitting next to Frank. At one point Frank goes "How many do we have left?" And then the girl who sits with a guy frowns and flashes two fingers. I wasn't sure if it was just a couple having dinner that was watching this whole thing going down....or maybe some cops planted there. My guess is that it was just a couple having a nice long dinner and watching him go through date after date....maybe overhearing how many dates Pacino had lined up.
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The other couple were definitely undercover cops. I was confused about that as well, but after watching the scene a couple of times it's clear that they were part of his team.
"There's always, ALWAYS, a non-voodoo explanation for everything!"
Yes, as I recall the couple nod to him later or something to show that they're part of the stakeout.
shareI had a lot of sympathy for the rejected older woman. The scenes with her and Pacino are a gem.
shareI agree. I wish the rejected older woman would have had a larger presence in this film, though I guess if she had, she wouldn't have had as much impact. That's the sign of a memorable supporting player – to make a lasting impact with just a few lines in a film.
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like the movie was! well besides Pacino, He's always great though.
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