MovieChat Forums > Licence to Kill (1989) Discussion > LICENCE TO KILL or DIE ANOTHER DAY?

LICENCE TO KILL or DIE ANOTHER DAY?

posted 12 years ago by TMC-4
23 replies | jump to latest

Both movies you can argue, temporally killed off the Bond franchise. LTK (which is the lowest grossing Bond movie ever when taking inflation into account) marked the unceremonious end to Timothy Dalton's run as 007 and the start of a six year long hiatus (still the longest in Bond movie history because of legal issues that EON and MGM/UA were having at the time). The most common criticism (besides fans of still recent the Roger Moore era having a hard time resonating w/ the darker more gruesomely violent tone in LTK) that I've heard about LTK is that it plays off like a bad Miami Vice wannabe instead of an actual Bond film (the fact that it's I believe the only Bond film that wasn't produced at least partially in England due too it being too expensive to film there at the time doesn't really help).

While Die Another Day was a huge hit at the box office, it got mixed reviews at best and lead to the reboot (from that perspective, cramming in "cute" little homages to the past 19 Bond movies kind of made sense if this was going to be the last official one in the original 1962-2002 timeline/continuity) w/ Daniel Craig four years later. It was another prime example of how the Pierce Brosnan era started off w/ an intriguing premise/concept (here it's Bond being captured and tortured in North Korea for 14 months) and not really following it through in order to not stray too far from the "Bond blueprint". It was also an example of the filmmakers trying so hard to be "hip and with it" (in order to kept up w/ John Woo, Michael Bay, The Matrix, McG, xXx, etc.) that they load it w/ superficial, MTV style filmmaking gimmicks like slow-motion and really cheesy CGI (arguably the series nadir in regards to stunt work). When Roger Moore (the first Bond in space) thinks that your Bond movie went a bit over-the-top, then you went a bit over-the-top.

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] sascha-17 12 years ago

Gotta be LTK.

DAD felt like a *really* tired re-hash of the old Bond formula. Except for the idea of Bond getting captured and tortured - which was quickly dropped right after the credits - there was nothing original or interesting about it..

The constant clumsy references to earlier films alone are enough to ruin the film for me. Plus you get horrible CGI, cartoon-like action-sequences, the least sexy flirting-scene in Bond-history and a truly dreadful theme-song.

S.

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] TMC-4 12 years ago

If DAD (the best way that I can sum up DAD is that it's 007's "mid-life crisis" film) wanted to be a throw back of sorts to the "over-the-top" Bond extravaganzas like You Only Live Twice, Diamonds Are Forever, The Spy Who Loved Me, and Moonraker, then don't start the movie off on a dark note by having Bond get captured in North Korea and tortured for 14 months (it's as if the filmmakers wanted to have their cake and eat it too during the Pierce Brosnan era).

Even though LTK doesn't feel as epic, slick or polished as the Brosnan films, it at the very least tries to follow through w/ the whole "Bond is a rogue agent" angle. It also doesn't start off considerably dark/serious and then drastically veers into camp/sci-fi territory. Unlike DAD's electro-trash from Madonna (another desperate and really pathetic attempt at the filmmakers trying to make 007 "hip and with it"), LTK has a great theme song by Gladys Knight.

[–] 12 years ago

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[–] Mr_Blonde3 12 years ago

LTK and TLD are actually turning into my two favorite Bond films. Honestly, LTK feels like what "Diamonds Are Forever" should have been. Instead of avenging the death of his own wife, Bond is vicariously seeking revenge by getting the people behind the death of Leiter's wife. It's brilliantly constructed, light years ahead of DAF, which saw Bond and Blofeld have several face/offs without a single word to the fact that he'd killed his wife in the previous film. And it breaks off from the same tired formula somewhat. Both of Dalton's films do.

It seemed like the franchise knew they needed to get back to basics after Moore's last outing, but then when audiences weren't quite ready for Dalton's dark, realistic take, they went back to the tired formula for the last three Brosnan films, finally tapping out with DAD. Dalton was just 18 years too early, and while Craig is great, I can't help but feel that he's getting praise for a portrayal that Dalton spearheaded himself in his two films.

Thankfully though, those reviewing the films are starting to see them in a bit of a different light, it seems. Those that love Craig's version can see that Dalton had it right all those years before.

I love to love my Lisa.

[–] tralycr_c-1 12 years ago

Lumping John Woo--the Godfather of Action--in with Michael Bay? WTF?

I don't see how LTK "temporarily killed off" anything. The six-year hiatus didn't have anything to do with Dalton's critics or box office performance. Die Another Day, on the other hand, became so reviled by fans that EON ditched their leading man and REBOOTED a 40-year franchise.

So, yeah, DAD sucked donkey meat.

There is a man...he travels fast...he has purpose...he brings violence and destruction.

[–] TMC-4 12 years ago

In Tomorrow Never Dies at least, you can argue that there's a bit of influence from John Woo w/ the whole emphasis on slow-motion gun battles (e.g. the shot of Michelle Yeoh flying down w/ the machine gun in the corridor of the ship during the climax) and Bond using two guns at once.

[–] tralycr_c-1 12 years ago

John Woo was an action-making god back then so I'm sure he was on someone's mind, but comparing what they did in TND to anything THE MASTER has done is just silly and I won't have it.

I bloody won't!

There is a man...he travels fast...he has purpose...he brings violence and destruction.

[–] xB11 11 years ago

Yeah, the scene where you see her aiming the gun seemed a bit forced. I mean, she aims okay and I know it was a crucial part of the film, but still it just seemed forced as opposed to really necessary.

[–] xB11 12 years ago

Remember, production and outlining began for a third outing for Timothy Dalton. He had a contract for three films. In addition, it was his choice to step down from the role. It is a big misconception that the James Bond series was killed off with Licence to Kill. That is totally false. Yes the film underperformed in the box office, and yes it was certainly different than anything that had come before, however it did not kill of the franchise. There were legal wranglings between MGM and the company Pathé which was illegally distributing the James Bond films on television without permission. I'm sure you know all of this. There was going to be a third Dalton film slated for 1991 by the name of "The Property of a Lady". However, it never came to be and Dalton decided to step down from the role. He could have been in a third film, but he wanted to pursue other projects.

[–] IndianaMcClane 12 years ago

I have a softer spot for DIE ANOTHER DAY than most as it was the first Bond film I had seen in theaters when I was a kid, but LICENCE TO KILL (In mine and many others' opinions) is far better.

[–] Irishdrummer007 12 years ago

Die Another day starts off good. But after Bond escapes went downhill Very fast. There is no comparing the two Movies. Licence to Kill is Better than Die Another day is everyway IMO.

Licence to Kill did not halt the Bond Films being made in anyway. A Lawsuit did in fact Stop Bond films Being made for 6 years and Cubby was waiting for Dalton to come back into the role. Dalton choose not to return after 6 years of waiting. (Dalton was actually filming Scarlett at the time as well)

[–] domester82 12 years ago

Bond movies always reflect the times they're made in.

TND did seem to have an influence from Eastern action movies, including John Woo

DAD did feel like it was trying to keep up with The Matrix, and recent developments in action cinema. Just like Casino Royale has some influence from the more 'grounded' spy movies like Bourne.

LTK felt a bit like those 80s action movies like Die Hard and Commando.

I prefer LTK of the two (more realistic and better script). DAD does start off promisingly, with the whole 'held captive in N. Korea for over a year' story.

[–] baum6666 11 years ago

LICENCE TO KILL

[–] FridayOnElmStreet 12 years ago

LTK is better but I love both films.

[–] ActionJunkie007 12 years ago

Have to pick DAD on this one. I LOVE LTK, amazing film, but DAD just delivers everything I crave in bond, from the serious dark edged to the over the top male fantasy. I think DAD is one of the most misunderstood films in the series, as the second half was fully intended and designed to be as over the top as it gets. Like Skyfall, and to an extent The Living Daylights, it was an anniversary film, meant as a celebration of everything Bond has been over the last 40 years, and going full on dark edged would have been ignoring a huge part of the fanbase that loves crazy lairs(ice palace), gadgets the kid in all of us wish we could have(invisible car) and unbelievable stunts(tsunami surfing).

Unlike most, I love the second half and feel it compliments the first half nicely, as the story was written so brilliantly, the huge change in direction fits perfectly with the villain's "defect". (why so many disregard two facts, one, that graves LIVES his dreams and how that plays into the jet car, ice palace, and "super suit" make perfect sense amd two, this film was inspired and followed the trend of super hero films that dominated the era , is beyond me)

To credit DAD further, it gave us so many first's, breaking new ground. Bond deconstructed, captured and tortured, bonds torture happening during opening credits, bond theme pop/techno style, bond in a full beard looking scraggly, bond not trusted and made out to be a traitor, slow motion, fast camera swipes, extensive CGI, first adult sex scene, Oakenfolds amazing bond theme remix, the return of bond in a silver Aston Martin, John Cleese as full on Q, Traveling to Cuba and Iceland, a henchman with a gadget laden car, and bond going invisible.

Add the overwhelming homage's that fit in the story perfectly, Brosnans best performance yet, and direction that keeps a constant pace of action amd excitement briskly moving along, its without a doubt the most ambitious bond film in the series to date and obviously, one of my, if not THE , best bond ever IMO.

Most likely this will be confirmed once im done rewatching the series, coincidentally, next up, Licence to Kill ;)

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[–] tbirdman-1 11 years ago

LTK is one of my favorite 007 movies and DAD is at the opposite end being
both my least favorite of the entire James Bond franchise (have seen all
of the films) and in my opinion is Pierce Brosnan's worst Bond movie.
Cannot really blame him since he was fulfilling his contract to do a
fourth film and the weak and lame script is the culprit. As for
Timothy Dalton as Bond, well I have always felt that he was the closest
in spirit as 007 in so far as how the character of Ian Fleming's books
was written. Plus I liked his deadly serious take on portraying Bond
in a more realistic manner as the franchise wound down with the end
of the 80's decade of greed and corruption. As TLD and LTK were
released in 1987 & 1989 respectively then the time for more serious
and realistic James Bond movies was at hand. Now looking back on
these two films of Dalton's well I really wish that he'd been able
to continue for one more movie since his original contract had been
for him to star in three James Bond films. Were it not for the legal
issues in the early nineties that plagued EON Productions and
MGM/UA then perhaps Dalton would have starred in a third 007 film?
Alas we shall never really know though I'm glad that he's had a
successful post 007 movie career as an actor. Timothy Dalton and
Daniel Craig are my favorite of the modern era actors who've been
James Bond and I also like Roger Moore as well. Though his movies
were quite tongue-in-cheek with loads of dry british humor.
For Your Eyes Only remains my personal favorite of Moore's films
as James Bond.

Lorenzo Sunny California

Call me a sailor or a swabby just don't call me a squid!

[–] SuperDevilDoctor 11 years ago

DAD is... both my least favorite of the entire James Bond franchise (have seen all of the films) and in my opinion is Pierce Brosnan's worst Bond movie

Same for me. DAD is truly the nadir of the EON franchise, which I didn't think was possible after AVTAK.

"More... More POWER!"

[–] tbirdman-1 11 years ago

Hello Doctor and I agree with you about AVTAK. As much as I admire and
respect Roger Moore's take on Bond, I feel that "A View To A Kill" is
easily his worst movie as 007. He really should've bowed out of the
franchise after the success of "For Your Eyes Only" and Moore really
looked quite old in "Octopussy." Btw I'm not a fan of Pierce Brosnan
as James Bond though he played an interesting 007 type of character
in "The Tailor Of Panama."

Lorenzo Sunny California

Call me a sailor or a swabby just don't call me a squid!