In the movie, Joe Clark fired the music teacher, Mrs. Elliot. However, later he suspended Mr. Darnell. The vice principal tells him he doesn't have the power to suspend a teacher. How come he has the power to fire one but not suspend one?
shareyou cant suspend a teacher but you can fire them
suspending a teacher is giving them a students punishment and a teacher is immune i guess
The principal cannot suspend, fire or even hire a teacher. The principal does have the sole power to recommend or request either based upon what they think is in the best interest of their school. Immediate expulsion/suspension can only be granted after sufficient proof or documentaion has been presented and reviewed by the board. The final decision would then be carried out by the agreement of the board and or superintendent. Only the school district itself which consists of a team of educators, parents atc., has the power to hire or fire a teacher and then only after careful review. No teacher would have been placed on suspension for the reasons that Clark stated regarding Mr. Elliott in reality. That was ridiculous.
Peace.
PCL
Yes, it was interesting how besides Guillaume's reference to her "getting some teachers together" and having "union lawyers threatening me" over her firing, you never hear of Mrs. Elliott again.
That was the one really sour note hit by this movie, IMHO. Joe Clark screwed up royally with Mrs. Elliott, but it doesn't matter in the end because...well, why? It matters to me.
That subplot was grossly mishandled. If it was true, give it resolution. If not, well, that's just a bad script. I'm a teacher myself, and I DID NOT LIKE that scene in the movie one bit. It proved no point and led to nothing, except make Joe Clark look like an unapologetic @$$hole.
I must admit that I really don't see what point the movie was trying to make at all with that entire incident! Mrs. Elliot wasn't on it much before the firing, except sitting at the initial principal/teacher meeting and showing her disgust/frustration at the way Joe Clark handled the meeting. So, I have no idea at all why they added in that scene, just to give the other music teacher a chance to shine through? I really couldn't understand it!
shareThe entire Mrs. Elliot part of the movie was just substance to add to the "Mr. Clark is ruthless" angle that the movie played. They wanted to demonstrate an example of how abusive and ruthless Joe Clark was in that context, and they hit the nail on the head. As far as her role never materializing, it was just background plot that never needed to be expanded. Or at least, that's how the director felt.
My favorite part is when she gets fired and slaps the wall.
actually later on when the vice principle i think was talking to him about firing the music teacher, she mentioned that he does not have the authority to do that, and he said 'ill reccomend then'
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I'm reading Joe Clark's book "Laying down the Law" and she did alot more then that one scene depicted. She refused to follow the procedure for requesting funds for field trips, having guest lecturers, etc and after giving her atleast 10 changes to follow directions he finally snapped and "fired" her. In reality since he can't fire teachers he used the technique of making the teachers lives miserable until they coundn't take it anymore and transfered. She decided to leave the school system so I'm not sure if she or the teacher union made a big stink over it.
shareThank you Lionheart for this comment,
I thought that the firing of this teacher was a fictitious account made for the move, but if it is documented in Joe Clark's book it makes the scene more understandable. However, I do think that Clark went over the line based on the scene in the movie.
Worse was suspending Darnell for "Moving during the school song" and "picking up paper!" At least Dr. Napier demanded that he be reinstated.
Joe
"I am a teacher and I live in West Paterson, about 10 minutes from Eastside High, and I can tell you that Joe Clark is not a very well-respected man around here. The movie version is VERY loosely based on the real man. "
That is interesting, can you give us more details?
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Exactly right.
You can see from the start how the teachers attitudes were. During the first assembly when he's kicking students out. The teacher says "what about me??" A lot of them were not making the effort to reach the students. They were more concerned with their own personal agendas than educating the students. Mrs Elliot did not feel that Joe Clark's movement in the school should have anything to do with her. She believed she was above it and her students were too, separate from the school.
Mr Clark recognized the importance in having a "school song". Mrs Elliot ignored it. Mrs Elliot's choir is bored. She tells them they won't be invited back to NY if they keep singing like that. She is not inspiring them and only concerned with her tournament that they do every year, not worried about the schools problems.
The students are inspired by Mrs Powers. She teaches the students the school song and gets kids interested in the school song
Well, he said he couldn't get her back now even if they wanted her back, remember? Probably she said she'd rather go sell shoes than work with that monster Joe Clark again. They probably put her in another school, where she'd be appreciated.
shareThat subplot was grossly mishandled. If it was true, give it resolution. If not, well, that's just a bad script. I'm a teacher myself, and I DID NOT LIKE that scene in the movie one bit. It proved no point and led to nothing, except make Joe Clark look like an unapologetic @$$hole.
I think that scene was funny.
She's talking about Mozart and Joe Clarks like "WHAT?", LMAO
Even if he handled it wrong, she soudned like she wanted out anyways after he pulled her to the side.
Maybe she didn't know about Mrs. Elliott's firing, which I think was completely out of line. She was trying to get the kids involved in classical music, which apparently Clark has no interest in because he was such a prick. I'm glad she didn't come back-I wouldn't have either.
shareI wouldn't have come back either. I think the real reason why Clark fired her was because she had the nerve and courage to stand up to him and he wouldn't take it. If anybody should have been fired, it should have been Clark himself.
shareFrankly, I agree. So often, as a teacher, I feel like I'm doing something wrong just for maintaining high standards of learning and behavior in my classroom. Sure it's "boring" for my students, but is that really the point of an education in America--that it be entertaining?!
It really hits a sore point with me that teachers get so much of the blame for the problems in American schools when those educators (at least in the public schools) aren't given any ownership of (i.e. empowerment to do something about) the problems.
Joe Clark really comes off now as less of a reformer than just another power-mad, ego-driven school dictator convinced that he could solve all the problems in the system by ranting and browbeating educators into compliance.
It didn't work then, and it doesn't work now. Administrators like Clark need to grow up and knock it the hell off, because they're simply further eradicating an already-scarce resource, our nation's teachers, by doing this.
Apparently, though, it's OK for principals to be tough on teachers, but not for teachers to be tough on their students.
Maybe I saw the firing of Mrs. Elliott from a different angle than most people.
Mr. Clark instituted a rule that EVERYONE should learn the school song. For whatever reason, I do not exactly know. Maybe to implement some school spirit. When Mr. Clark went to Mrs. Elliott's classroom to tell her that all students should learn the school song, she sort of cut him short by saying "all right" and then went on with her business. She clearly was treating the school song insignificant, compared to her classical music class.
Mr. Clark, feeling ignored, decided to have a more heated discussion with this "prima donna" classical music teacher. Of course, in the heated argument that followed, he ended by simply saying, "You are Fired" and she replied "You will hear from my lawyer".
Actually, what you saw in Mrs. Elliott's room was a class full of students participating, learning and paying attention. Not talking back, not being unruly, not breaking rules. Seems to me it was the one class that he did not have to change. As for being a "prima donna", looks to me like she earned it.
If we all liked the same movie, there'd only be one movie!
I'm watching the movie now and I do think that firing Mrs. Elliot was unfair. The woman was just doing her job. Sure, Mr. Clark wanted all the students to learn the school song but at the same time, that can't be the only thing that the teachers focus on during class time. It was ridiculous of Clark to confront her the way he did.
"Sometimes a person takes on the coloring of his associates"
I just came across this...He fires her because she disrespected him. she questioned his authority in front of the students.
"Kick your ass, I will" Master Yoda
"It was ridiculous of Clark to confront her the way he did."
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Agreed. After their brief conversation in the music room, Clark berated Mrs. Elliot because she "questioned my intelligence and my competence." However, at no point did she ever do such. "Crazy Joe" was a fitting moniker for Clark.
That is exactly the point. I have the feeling he wanted the kids to have some sort of school spirit, which to me is such b.s. She just sort of brushes him off, or he feels he does, and then the whole argument starts. If he had said, "Excuse me, Mrs. Elliot, I wasn't finished. Did you understand what I just said?" that might've not led to any argument. Basically, Clark was just a jerk who I think did need help. He also didn't feel Mozart was that important. I think what it would do to the kids is get them interested in other things that are educational. I have the feeling that if it was gospel she was teaching, he wouldn't give a rat's behind.
shareYeah, she calls him a bully and despicable man and then he just fires her. I think there is a great moment when he tells Dr. Napier to go ahead and bail on out. What if everyone just did? Would he end up teaching everyone in the school himself?
shareIMHO I thought that subplot needed resolution because the actress playing Ms Elliott was really really good-looking and I would have liked to see her again!
shareOne thing that really struck a nerve with me with that teacher, was her arrogance. yeah, the way she brushed him off, but her total disrespect for authority. When kids can't even pass a basic skills test, what is so important about Mozart anyway? I agree he was being bossy and showing his total control and power by demanding that they all learn the school song, but I didn't like the fact that she totally brushed him off like he was less than a student. You have to have SOME respect for your boss. He hadn't given her a chance to dislike him with the intensity that she did and that school had to have reform. If I went to that school then I would have feared for my life! I thought schools in L.A. were bad but wow, that was terrible, they even beat a teacher if not to death then close to it. He was bleeding all over the floor and looked dazed. Ripping a girls clothes off in the bathroom. That place was a madhouse and he knew he had to have everybody on the same page as he was and not have a rebel. I didn't think Mr. Elliot did anything wrong until he got mad and dumped over his desk, which was actually kind of funny.
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As I said before, the whole idea of her teaching the kids Mozart was to get them interested in music, which was what she taught. If they got interested in that, maybe they would then try to do other things to make their lives better. Clark couldn't see that, probably because it was Mozart and not gospel stuff. As to the opening where the Spanish girl gets her clothes ripped off, well really her shirt, why isn't she wearing a bra? She has breasts, and nice ones.
shareI thught the lady that played Mrs. Santo was pretty cute.
As for the girl that had her shirt ripped off, the obvious would be for her to have had a bra on, but they wanted the audience to get the full effect of what was going on at that school. Plus, you hardly was able to see her breast.
My job is to inform, not persuade- Dan Rather
Yeah, her and Mrs. Santos. You want to have sex with them like Pamela Smart did with Billy Flynn several years later. Also, Robin Bartlett, who played Mrs. Elliot, appeared in Dangerous Minds several years later, playing Michelle Pfeffer's boss.
shareAlso, to add to what I said in the other post.
This is seen later on when an assembly is called and students all stand on their feet to sing the schools song together. EVERYONE was into it. Clark points out right before this that the white students among them are part of the school and they're all together in it.
He brings unity to the school with this. Mrs Elliot did not bring any unity. Her students all lost interest. She was part of the old ways that ruined the school. Times were changing and she never did.
In truth, Clark couldn't have arbitrially fired the music teacher. The teachers had a union and were not subject to employer at will.
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