MovieChat Forums > Akira (1988) Discussion > An end to the Sub vs Dub vs Dub debate?!...

An end to the Sub vs Dub vs Dub debate?!?!??

posted 15 years ago by havok4lyfe
24 replies | jump to latest

I first learned of Akira through an ad in the Los Angeles Times in late 1988. The movie intrigued me, but I wasn't able to make it out to Santa Monica, which if I recall correctly, was the only place showing it locally at the time.

I don't recall if it was showing in English or in Japanese with subtitles. Not that it mattered, because back then there was no great debate about such things given the limited choices we had.

We watched what was available, which for me, like most others, was an English only VHS copy from the local video store when it finally became available in 1991.

The subtitled version wasn't available for another couple of years!!!

Despite this "deficiency", I loved it. This was one of, if not the first, serious Japanese animated films to reach stateside. I thought the animation; sounds, music and even voice acting were all extremely well done.

Eventually, I watched the subtitled version, but the English dub had already ingrained itself in my mind and heart.

Nevertheless, I began to watch most anime in its original Japanese with subtitles and became sort of a purist champion. I’ve since had a change of heart. (More on that later)

When my roommate got a new HDTV in 2001, we decided the first thing to watch was the just released Pioneer Special Edition version of Akira.

What a letdown! They redid the English dub!

This was not the Akira I remembered.

Still, upon subsequent viewings, I could not help but enjoy the crisp visuals and 5.1 sound.

Slowly, I got used to the Pioneer dub. Now I actually prefer it.

With few exceptions, the voice acting and dialog are so much better.

My advice on Akira?

Go with the Pioneer dub, if you want to enjoy the movie the first time through. You can focus on watching the movie and not reading the subtitles.

Later, if your purist side yearns for Japanese nuance, watch the subtitled version.

Skip the Streamline dub, unless you absolutely have to see every iteration.

As to the debate in general, I believe that watching a movie in its original language is always best, IF you speak the language!

Subtitles are a poor substitute. They usually butcher the actual meaning of the dialog anyways and always distract from the movie watching experience.

Therefore, unless you know the dub to be poor, I would always recommend watching a movie in your native language.

The real question one should ask is:

"What is worse, the subs or the dub?"

Keeping in mind, there will always be something lost in translation.

[–] heishiro 15 years ago

There is no Finnish dub for Akira so for me the only reasonable choise is to watch it in Japanese with subtitles.

[–] TheMisanthrope 15 years ago

I had a bootleg japanese version for about a year before the first dub became available back in 89/90.

We had seen the dubbed version in art school before it was released - and everyone HATED it.

The japanese version you get MUCH more emotion from the voices. IMHO its the only way to watch it - or any foreign film.

In the original language with subtitles.

"God Hates Us All"

[–] havok4lyfe 15 years ago

Heishiro –

I admit I hadn't considered your situation. But since your English is obviously good, wouldn't it make more sense to watch it in English rather than Japanese with Finnish subs? Though, at this point, I guess it makes little difference.

TheMisanthrope –

First of all, I applaud your resourcefulness in obtaining the bootleg back then.

However, I do not agree that you always get much more emotion from the original language, nor do I think that is necessarily what’s most important.

What is most important is the overall performance and to a slightly lesser degree the dialog as a means to convey the story.

Beginning with the performance aspect, why assume that the original language voice actor automatically does a better job then the dub voice actor?

While I agree it was once customary to “phone in” the performance for the dub version, I believe that (perhaps beginning with Akira) a more professional attitude has become the standard.

This can be seen with the number of big name actors that are now utilized, particularly in Miyazaki’s films.

As for the dialog, again why assume that subtitled translations are automatically more accurate?

“All your base are belong to us”, anyone?

Where I will agree with you (perhaps I should revise my original post) is when it comes to live action.

For some, it may be more distracting to hear and see a language not matching the actor than to have to read the subtitles.

But as for animation, it seems to me, that with the right voice actor and dialog, any language can be just as good as the original, since they are all “technically” dubbed anyway!

[–] TheMisanthrope 15 years ago

Why is it true for live action but not animation? The difference is the original actors had Otomo there to coach and advice them = a better delivery in so many ways.

Using the old dub for example. They couldnt even get "I am Tetsuo" at the end of the film right. 3 simple words. The guy blurts it out with no consideration for its meaning. Theres no acceptance,emotion,understanding of context,etc. He says it almost as a proclamation.

I often found japanese dubs to be horrible, boring experiences. Maybe if youre gonna dub a film about teenagers from japan, you should use japanese voice actors, so I dont have to cringe everything I hear a guy from wyoming try to pronounce a japanese name or word correctly.

And as is almost always the case, dubbed version do often change dialgoue. Sometimes drastically so, so that it can actually change the point of scenes, narrative direction, or a film. I understand there might be slight changes because of translation, but often the changes have nothing to do with translation.

Check out the Shaw Bros dubs for some of the worst offenders of this. I grew up watching the dubs, but when I finally saw the films with the original dialogue I was actually shocked how different it was from what Id been hearing for all those years.

I absolutely hate dubs.

"God Hates Us All"

[–] TemporaryAgent 15 years ago

No consideration for its meaning? You may have the dubs confused.

Hate to break it to you, but the Japanese version of Akira was not well acted. The majority of the cast were young and inexperienced actors. Nozomu Sasaki sounded like a little kid and his performance was nothing spectacular.

[–] JTurner82 15 years ago

<<While I agree it was once customary to “phone in” the performance for the dub version, I believe that (perhaps beginning with Akira) a more professional attitude has become the standard.

This can be seen with the number of big name actors that are now utilized, particularly in Miyazaki’s films. >>

And that's why the dubs of his movies are so good; they are all professional in quality, and have excellent to good actors AND voice actors in them (They do make some eccentric choices at times, but I can live with it). It should also be noted that Miyazaki himself wants viewers to watch his films in their native language and he finds subtitles distracting.

Anyway, as for AKIRA, I'm sorry, but I find the newer dub by Geneon to be preferable to the original Streamline dub; the older dub was just plain bad and incoherent. The VAs in the older dub were just not good at all, and the script didn't make any sense. The new dub, on the other hand, has a much more polished and professional sounding script, and it's reflected by the performances, who breathe a lot more life and energy into the characters than the older guys did. (It helps that they had a voice director who coached them to pronounce the names correctly.) They also spent a lot more money on the new dub than the older one--$1 million, to be exact. Streamline's dub hardly had that kind of budget. Personally, I think the new dub is pretty excellent and the only way I'll ever watch this film. It's not without its minor problems, but it's still a well done production.

I DID spot check the Japanese version in places, and I noticed that the dialogue is more synchronized--this is because they recorded the dialogue FIRST and then did the animation, a rarity for most Japanese animated films. Since my Japanese is not very good, I really cannot give any comment about the acting in the native language track.

-Jon T.

[–] havok4lyfe 15 years ago

Thank you, Jon T.

I was beginning to think I was the only one.

[–] Psinex6 15 years ago

I'm sorry but the new voices in the Pioneer dub lack any kind of charisma or attitude. The new script seems to make a point to piss all over the original Streamline script, which has some great classic lines. Purists might enjoy the newer dub more just because it has "fixed" previously incorrect pronunciations and done more of a literal translation. I don't really care about those things if the performances are weak.

There wasn't enough contrast between Kaneda and Tetsuo's voices for my liking. In the Streamline dub, every character has a distinct voice, and they really got into the performances. You could hear the anger and emotion...where everything felt flat in the Pioneer dub. The Colonel sounded particularly flat, which is probably more accurate to a military-type of character, but the Streamline Colonel has some great lines that just get omitted here.

If I could get a cleaned up 5.1 version of the Streamline dub with the new sound effects and 192kHz soundtrack of the Bluray, I would be a happy clam.

[–] ghost_hat 15 years ago

Like many others, I first saw this movie with the original dub.
I didn't understand what the hell was going on and ended up
very confused. Later I saw it with the subs and suddenly the story
seemed to make sense.
Also, felt the dub was overly cheezy and the voices did not sound
as serious as the japanese, nor fit the characters.

BTW, I do understand Japanese and found the Japanese voices fit the
characters much better. Whoever complained about the vocals being
done by a young guy must not understand that the characters were
supposed to be 15. The dub sounds like a bunch of adults pretending
to be high schoolers...

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] TemporaryAgent 13 years ago

JTurner, is that you?

[–] jutuomin 14 years ago

Heishiro haven't answered, but I think I can say something for him/her..

Given that my English is also pretty good and I do not speak any Japanese at all I still cannot see the point.
I also live in Finland and for Akira there is no Finnish dub. Not that I'd want one so I cannot really complain.
I have several animated DVDs in collection and some of them have Finnish dubs (especially the ones from Studio Ghibli). Never have I though that I'd get something more when watching it in Finnish.
In television the animated shows and movies (even more adult stuf like Shrek) usually have Finnish audio only and I really, really hate it. It is not that they are poorly done, but just that sometimes it is so obvious what the characters actually wanted to say and the Finnish translation just didn't fit to that spot. So I've had my share of Finnish dubs.
For once I did watch Shrek from DVD so that it had the Finnish dub and Finnish subtitles (translated from the original English audio). I think everyone should have a test of this kind to see what dubbing actually change from the films..

to not get sidetracked (as I almost did) I'll keep this short..

Since most of films here in Finland have always Finnish subtitles, it doesn't really matter what language the films are. Reading your native language should be practically automatic. So I cannot see where there is a problem in that..
I do think that if you read a foreign language (like when I'm watching a movie with English subtitles), it can be disturbing, but for native language it shouldn't be a problem.
In films the length of mouth movement animation (and the length of different scenes all together) is always equal to the amount of time it takes to say the lines in the language the films is made. When you remake those scenes in another language you always have to look for ways to say the same things at the same length of time. And while this can sometimes be done (and experience can make you pretty good in this) there will always be some parts where the lines don't just fit where their supposed to be (or parts where you have more time than what you'd need - which is equally bad). This is why I think that making audio to a video that was originally meant to have audio in different language is not a good idea..
Especially when you already have a great tool called subtitles which allows you to keep the original flow of audio while you can translate the lines the way you think is the best (where using more or less time than the original is not a problem).

Further more - hopefully not anymore, but some time ago it was actually quite frequent. English is a very influencial language. Having an English audio for a any film can sometime mean that no other audio is not distributed even to a non-Enlish regions like Finland. For instant in Akira that has happened. That I think is always unfortunate, but it is not because of voice-overs and I don't think they are to blame. But I'll mention it as a interesting side-note to this dubbed vs. sub-titled conversation.

[–] Aidan_Mclaren 15 years ago

You people are completely silly.

Nothing is tragic; everything is unreal!

[–] GrownUpKid 15 years ago

I just tracked down a copy of the Streamline dub and I first saw the movie due to the Pioneer release. I don't really see how anyone would choose the Streamline dub except due to nostalgia. Then again it might just be my own nostalgia for the Pioneer dub thats influencing my opinion. Besides the voices, the dialogue and deliveries of the Pioneer dub are better imho but it's all a matter of personal preference.

Still got my fingers crossed, waiting for Judas Contract to get green-lit

[–] JTurner82 15 years ago

I don't think Streamline even MADE this dub; from what I understand, it was done on the cheap by the Japanese company, who commissioned an American dubbing studio to record it in a very quick amount of time, hence why many lines come out as very artificial and unnatural-sounding. It also explains why the voice actors in the Streamline dub sound very off half the time they are talking. Dubs of this nature were often very bad, and while I can say there's a bit of nostalgia involved in the preference of this older dub, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a better dub.

The same is true with another movie that was dubbed in a very similar way before it got a new dub: LAPUTA. The first dub for that film, like AKIRA, was produced very quickly, and as such it sounds awful. The voice acting sounded either robotic or just plain bad overacting, but it was the script that killed this first dub for me: despite not having the sometimes overdone extra lines (or altering the last part of Sheeta's speech at the end), the actual script doesn't sound very natural; many of the so-called "funny" lines are totally bizarre and awkward. Disney's version may have more chatter (and upgraded the music score), but I think the overall voices, dialogue, and delivery of their version outclasses this older one; the performances there sound much more natural (yes, even the somewhat mature-sounding leads; Streamline's leads are just lifeless by comparison).

[–] UberNoodle 15 years ago

"As to the debate in general, I believe that watching a movie in its original language is always best, IF you speak the language!

Subtitles are a poor substitute. They usually butcher the actual meaning of the dialog anyways and always distract from the movie watching experience.

Therefore, unless you know the dub to be poor, I would always recommend watching a movie in your native language."

--------------------------

I disagree on these points OP. Dubs are quite often changed from the original script in order to meet cultural sensibilities, but most often to fit the dialog with mouth movements. This is something that subtitles don't have to worry about.

The limitations of subtitles are largely in readibility. Information has to be written in ways that are easy to read with a glance. There are times when subs are also changed to meet different cultural sensibilities but more often, since subs are thought of as being for 'purists' and dubs are considered as being for 'mainstream', subs are allowed to be literal translations of the original dialog.

In addition, the main reason to watch a film in its original language is in order to experience it with the vocal delivery and energy that it was originally designed for. It doesn't matter if you can't understand the language. So much is communicated via sound and inflection alone. COnsidering that Japanese voice actors are often of a level of professionalism and esteem that far outstrips that of many English ones, I would rather hear the originals.

With live action films, very rarely do the dub actors possess anywhere NEAR the skill and artistry of the original actors. I certainly do not want to hear the voices of these 'face for voice acting' actors.

So subtitles are often NOT the option that bucthers translations. Most of my collection are foreign language films and I speak from experience when I say that accurate and faithful dubs are rare. Dubs that match the passion and delivery of the orginal actors are also.

This is not being a purist or a snob. This is me being a cinema lover that wants to see foreign film as it was made. Subtitles are the most unobtrusive way to do that. I read so many of them that I don't even have to look at them to read, most of the time.

[–] Damn-Deal-Done 15 years ago

You said it all.

Japanese dialogue with literal subtitles, cleaned up for grammar only, added to the nuances of the original dialogue will result in the full understanding of what is being said. Your brain extrapolates the missing information and you get the full picture.

In my opinion, the new English dub is too clinical and the old one is too campy. They were both done by c-list actors with no direction at all, it shows.

[–] russelledwards001 15 years ago

i hate dubs - and always watch non english films with subtitles.

after a while you forget you are even reading subs.

I watched the dubbed version first back in the early 90's, and i found that later on wyhen i watched the subtitled version i enjoyed it more and it made way more sense.

[–] 15 years ago

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] randyhndrsn 14 years ago

A lot of people have a problem with subs because they have to read and can't look at every detail of the picture, that is very important to Akira.

I agree with the OP, watch the Pioneer Dub first so you can look at all the visuals and hear the voices.

After you see that, watch the film again with subtitles and that why you won't be as upset to not see everything.

[–] heishiro 14 years ago

This argument works only if you've only used to seeing movies in English.

[–] havok4lyfe 12 years ago

@randyhndrsn

Thank you.

@heishiro

"This argument works only if you've only used to seeing movies in English."

Noted.

[–] TheSolarSailor 12 years ago

Subtitles are a poor substitute. They usually butcher the actual meaning of the dialog anyways and always distract from the movie watching experience. >>> It has been my personal experience that more is lost in the dub than is lost in the subtitled version. Generally speaking, it is much more difficult to rearrange the dialogue to fit inside the limited amount of time given by the onscreen lip movements. In subtitles, you can squeeze in more and be more accurate. Japanese tend to speak so quickly anyhow, which compounds the problem of trying to get all pertinent information into the translated English dub. I have never even bothered to watch the dubbed version of Akira at all.

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