MovieChat Forums > The Accused (1988) Discussion > A problem with how feminists view rape:

A problem with how feminists view rape:

posted 13 years ago by creatorof2002
40 replies | jump to latest

Below is a copy/paste of a comment I made on a board for a movie called Higher Learning that had a "rape scene" which I put in quotes because the actual guilt was never established and the character in the movie never got prosecuted but did get socially ostracized. To me it is very important that rape as a crime have different "degrees" depending on the circumstances the way other crimes do. I feel that SOME rapists deserve either death, life with no parole, or castration, I actually AGREE with the feminists for SOME rapists, just as I approve of the death penalty for SOME murderers. However, lumping ALL rapes together as a single type of crime with no distinction to me is like lumping all forms of murder ranging from involuntary manslaughter to murder one with special circumstances together as the same crime. The 3 monster penalties which as I said are death, life without parole, and castration should only be reserved for monster people and should not apply to some date rapes or other scandal type situations (let's face it famous athletes get accused of rape a lot, look at Mike Tyson)

My biggest problem is THIS: Those feminists waving signs "dead men don't rape" which obviously implies they want this guy to get the DEATH PENALTY. There are three penalties most feminists insist on for rape:DEATH, CASTRATION, or LIFE in prison with no parole.

Now for crimes OTHER than rape we have "degrees" different levels of severity. For example with FIRST degree murder you are eligable in some states for the death penalty, for SECOND degree murder you cannot get death penalty but maybe life in prison, for MANSLAUGHTER (which is basically a lower degree of murder) you can get out in a few years, and even then it is divided into "voluntary" and "involuntary" and there is even a term "negligent homicide" which is what Mike Jackson's father is facing.

There is a lower level of kidnapping called "false imprisonment" and for drug crimes the sentence varies depending on quantity. For theft there is misdemeanor "petty theft" or "grand theft" and "grand larceny" depending on the value of what is stolen, candy bar from seven eleven you get probation steal a car you get state prison.

Yet these stupid feminists somehow think that all rape is EXACTLY THE SAME and they refuse to make distinctions between sickos like Philip Gerido who raped JC Dugard and various other monsters hiding in the bushes or gang rapists like the movie THE ACCUSED with people like the guy in this movie or someone (often a famous celebrity or pro athlete) in some kind of "he said she said" consent dispute where they went into a hotel room together and then she cries rape (like what happened to Mike Tyson).

Maybe these feminazis should allow a distinction between these different types of rape and NOT try to give the DEATH PENALTY to the guy in this movie and Mike Tyson. It pisses me off that they are fine with any other crime (like murder listed above for examples) having "degrees" but for RAPE they refuse any distinction between the different situations.

[–] novastar_6 13 years ago

And how would degrees of rape be determined? Who counts for Rape 1? Pedophiles? Incestual pedophiles? Predators who rape disabled women and children? Or just the ones who kill their victims? And what degree would men who rape their wives and girlfriends be? And male rape victims, where would the crimes against them be lumped into this? What about women rapists? What category would they go in? Murder 1 and murder 2 vary by premeditation, intent to kill, what, are there men who don't INTEND to rape but oops they just accidentally pinned someone down and penetrated them and didn't notice the screaming?

[–] JaeBianca 13 years ago

Please use the term "radical feminists" as all feminists are not one-dimensional extremists...there are gradients.

[–] novastar_6 13 years ago

The definition of feminist is somebody who's for feminism which means equality between the sexes, so men can be feminists, so this guy is saying men blow rape out of proportion too? Hardly.

[–] bite_me_loser_86 13 years ago

a lot of people don't seem to realize that. They think 'feminists' are a homogenous group consisting of bitter, man-haters that all think alike and agree on every single talking point. There are different types of feminists, and a lot of things are hugely debated among feminists.
This is why I hate it when I am constantly asked to explain or justify something crazy that some radical feminist said. Just because you hear a feminist express an opinion does not mean she speaks for feminists everywhere.

There are some core-values pretty much all feminists agree on, and you could say there's such a thing as mainstream feminism, but other than that we are all different.

I for one don't support the death penalty for any crime.

[–] piggoli-imdb 11 years ago

>>This is why I hate it when I am constantly asked to explain or justify something crazy that some radical feminist said. Just because you hear a feminist express an opinion does not mean she speaks for feminists everywhere.

Well you know what, a good way to clear this misunderstanding is to quote from a non-radical feminist from time to time, so that we know that not all feminists are same. It is funny that every time someone posts an anti-male quote from a 'radical' [to quote a poster here] feminist, other feminists jump the gun to point out lamely "oh, we don't say this. Only certain radical feminists do" but the conversation doesn't move beyond that. Reality is that we see most feminists to be silent over whatever a radical man-hating feminist have to say, and their silence is an indicator that they too secretly offer their consent to this worldwide practice of misandry. In conclusion, it can be safely said that feminists consist only of misandrists. Also, why is it that only those 'radical feminists' get so much press and the non-radical ones get none? I am yet to read a feminist who says that 'men and women should be treated equally'. It is always 'women should get this, women should have that' but there is no mention of 'men' anywhere. You may take us men to be stupid enough to believe in your denials but we know there is no smoke without fire, okay?

http://deltabravo.net/cms/plugins/content/content.php?content.316

The fact that feminists are called 'feminists' and not 'humanists' says a lot about the movement.

http://www.rense.com/general63/dur.htm

"Hello, my name is Mary Man-Hating-Is-Fun," one participant said. "I am 23 years old, and I am what a feminist looks like. Ever since I learned to embrace my feminist nature, I found great joy in threatening men's lives, flicking off frat brothers and plotting the patriarchy's death. I hate men because they are men, because I see them for what they are: misogynistic, sexist, oppressive and absurdly pathetic beings who only serve to pollute and contaminate this world with war, abuse, oppression and rape."

You want more such quotes? Be my guest. The web is filled with them. And you still deny that feminists are misandrists? Huh. If you read that article you will notice that only ONE woman disagreed with the radicals; only ONE. That doesn't even count.

And here is one more 'radical' feminist. Sorry I am unable to find any 'non-radical' feminist so far:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1225360/Humiliation-Harriet-Harman-statisticians-dismiss-claims-equal-pay.html

[–] lornamd-1 10 years ago

Most feminists hate radical feminists, but if you only read anti-feminist sources you'll be told a different story

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/26/revenge-porn-victim-conservative-man-penis
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/29/feminists-man-haters-sexist
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/09/men-victims-of-male-aggression-speak-up
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/71020-men-are-not-the-enemy-but-the-fellow-victims-the
http://floost.com/yesmeansyes-post-a-public-service-announcement-from-the-good-men-project-1841227

The "be a humanist, not a feminist" response doesn't make much sense cause humanism has nothing to do with gender issues. A feminist is someone who feels that since men own the vast majority of money, property, positions of power in politics, business, religion and the law, that women are unequal and this needs to change. That doesn't mean you hate men. In fact a lot of feminist have done things that are positive for men.

One of the biggest issues facing men is the many men dying in wars. Anti-war movements have a great deal of support from feminist groups like Code Pink and due to feminists fighting for women to join the army men no longer have the sole responsibility for fighting in wars. The American Red Cross which helps men in the army was co-created by Jane Addams, a feminist (who was also fought for greater factory safety laws for men).

Feminism helps male rape victims. The FBI's definition of rape definition of rape was "carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will," until the Feminist Majority Foundation and Ms. magazine launched the "Rape Is Rape" which changed the definition to include men. Feminists Jackie Speier andClaire McCaskill launched campaigns against rape in the military even though it effects men more than women. Feminist activist Lovisa Stannow, advocated for mostly male inmates and managed to get the federal government to carry out a annual statistical review and analysis of the incidence and effects of prison rape. The biggest support resources for male rape victims is RAINN which is started and run by feminists. The ACLU and Amnesty International are also feminist organizations who do a great deal for issues that affect men like the imprisonment and stop and frisk.

[–] piggoli-imdb 10 years ago

Well thought out response. Actually even if you are a feminist I wouldn't mind setting a date with you because at least you are capable of some rational thinking unlike those other crazy feminists. :)

Since you mentioned war, I thought I should include this link (nothing to do with rape):

The Deadly Consequences Of Feminist Propaganda In The US Navy
http://www.returnofkings.com/39218/the-deadly-consequences-of-feminist-propaganda-in-the-us-navy

You can categorize the website as 'anti-feminist' if you want, but I don't think it changes the facts.

"Kara Hultgreen was a big, strong, and highly intelligent woman. She had successfully flown the A-6 prior to training on the F-14. She was under a great deal of pressure to become the first combat pilot in the Navy. She was being rushed and pushed beyond her personal limits. The powers that be wanted women in these combat roles, and God dammit, they wanted them there right now. This pressure was not only extended to Lt. Hultgreen, but to her commanding officers and anyone else involved with her training.

The top brass of the Navy were watching all of them like hawks. Anything to upset the feminists and progressives would be seen as oppressive double standards—she wasn’t allowed to fail, and none of her male superiors were allowed to fail her. She was out of her depth and everyone around her knew it. Given her intelligence, I’m 99 percent sure that she knew it too, but she pressed on at her own peril, and very likely, to satisfy her own ego. Luckily, Lt. Klemish was able to escape with his life and none of the carrier crew were killed in this tragedy."

Sometimes feminism proves to be a woman's greatest enemy. Ain't that ironical? ;)

[–] lornamd-1 10 years ago

I would definitely consider a website that prohibit women and homosexuals from commenting, says don't work for a female boss and calls all women disloyal to be anti-feminist yes. That doesn't make facts untrue but it does mean I would require a less biased source to back up their facts before I believe them.

[–] englisher101 13 years ago

As males we can't really understand the emotional and psychological damage that can be caused by rape, but women also don't seem to understand why men can't understand that.

Biologically, men don't get pregnant when they have sex (duh). I really think this biological difference is what ultimately lead to the sociological differences between men and women. A man can sleep with a woman and not think twice about it, while women tend to be a lot more protective of their bodies and a lot more emotional when it comes to 'giving it up'.

For us guys, even if we get raped by an unattractive woman, we can probably get over it and move on with our daily lives. It's not the end of the world for us unless we contracted some deadly disease in the process.

Ultimately I think the emotional responses tend to make for a divide between genders (men thinking of women as sex objects because they can't quite get along with women the same way as they can with other men, and women thinking of men with contempt and distrust for that reason). Men and women should be able to talk more candidly with each other rather than being at war. Otherwise these issues never really find any sort of common ground.

[–] novastar_6 13 years ago

And if instead of 'an unattractive woman' it was a guy twice your size and weight, maybe with a knife to your throat, that's no big deal either?

[–] englisher101 12 years ago

I can't imagine it to permanently scar me for life. I've had a gun pointed at my face before and recovered just fine, and the only part of that which terrifies me is the chance of being killed. The sex part I think I can recover from and go about my daily life, and I think that's true of a lot of men and I think that's one of the reasons we have difficulty sympathizing as much as we should with rape cases, not merely because men are bigger than women (I tend to be quite small, BTW, at 130lbs)

[–] sekhmet-net 13 years ago

englisher101, I agree with some of your points, but the comments below I have to take issue with:

As males we can't really understand the emotional and psychological damage that can be caused by rape, but women also don't seem to understand why men can't understand that.

That's a massive generalisation. Unfortunately, there are plenty of men out there who understand the psychological damage all too well ... because they've experienced rape or other sexual assault as either a child or adult.

For us guys, even if we get raped by an unattractive woman, we can probably get over it and move on with our daily lives. It's not the end of the world for us unless we contracted some deadly disease in the process.

For the lucky ones, that might be right (though whether it's a man or a woman perpetrator, their "attractiveness" is irrelevant if you don't want it and they do it anyway). But I've spent the past 15 years working with sexual assault victims (male and female) and the above is an extremely naive assumption. I had a case where one poor guy's life had been ruined by what had been done to him - he was still dealing with it 30 years later. Maybe it wouldn't be the "end of the world" for some. It depends on your support systems, your psychological make-up, your past experiences as to how quickly you can move on. But any crime of violence is going to have a psychologically damaging impact to a degree. I think it can be more damaging to some men because male-on-male and female-on-male rape is not discussed as openly - most people in the community think rape is a penis being forced into a vagina (with the penis being attached to a stranger in a balaclava with a knife) - and often is even trivialised. Consequently, male victims might be less likely to seek out counselling or report it to police, due to shame and/or fear of not being believed, or it being seen as something they should just "get over". Almost every opinion piece, news article etc about rape focuses on female victims and male perpetrators, which by definition marginalises male victims.

Men and women should be able to talk more candidly with each other rather than being at war. Otherwise these issues never really find any sort of common ground.

Absolutely right. I don't think it's all that helpful to see it as a gender issue, to be honest. It's a human issue.

[–] englisher101 12 years ago

But I've spent the past 15 years working with sexual assault victims (male and female) and the above is an extremely naive assumption. I had a case where one poor guy's life had been ruined by what had been done to him - he was still dealing with it 30 years later.

I should have made a distinction, sorry. I was thinking mainly between adults, and between man and woman. Adolescents I think are more vulnerable in nature.

I realize I'm at the risk of coming off as extremely insensitive and I could be flat out wrong, but I can't help but think if a man (male adult) is raped by a woman (female adult) and did not receive any permanent physical harm in the process, that he'd recover from it quite quickly.

How do I dare make such a general assumption? It's because I, and many other guys I know, can imagine having sex with the most undesirable girl we know, and we could shrug it off. In fact, if there was any psychological damage from such an ordeal, I think it'd be from knowing a girl physically bested me more (far worse if other people knew that where I might then develop psychological issues about whether I'm tough and manly) than the fact that she forced me to have sex with her.

Hell, I've even gotten wasted and woke up before next to someone who I'd never want to have sex with when I was sober. I had no regrets at all about sleeping with them. I think women would be quite different there too if they woke up next to a guy they never wanted to have sex with. They'd probably feel violated in some way even if it wasn't rape. The only thing I ever regretted in those circumstances was when the girl I'd never date when sober got my phone number, since then I have to pretend like I'm busy and feel guilty about rejecting the girl. I'm pretty sure there are at least as many men who are like me in this regard as ones that are not.

[–] novastar_6 12 years ago

In layman's terms YOU try it on for size sometime and THEN tell us it's no big deal.

[–] englisher101 12 years ago

That's naturally going to be quite difficult. I'm basing my general observations just on how the two genders treat sex in general. For women it seems to be a much more emotional experience and much more of a commitment.

If a woman sleeps with the wrong man, it seems to weigh in far more to her mind. Of course I'm speaking in generalizations, but this seems to usually hold true. Most guys could just get drunk and sleep with a woman they don't like -- easy targets, and not even think much about it the next day. Most of the women I know can't do that -- sex is much more of an emotional act for them and not purely a physical release like it can be for a man.

I can't help but think that rape is much the same way. If there are gender differences in how we look at sex (whether sociological, biological, or both) and I think there's a vast library of references to suggest this is true, then certainly there are going to be some fundamental differences in how we view rape -- the seriousness of it, and the emotional aspects associated with it.

I don't intend to be callous or to tone down the seriousness of the crime. I am willing to bet a great deal that the amount of psychological and emotional trauma for a man being raped is going to be far less than a woman for whatever reasons, whether sociological or biological. That's not at all to undermine the crime, however. A man's insensitivity does not make anything he does wrong excusable.

[–] Petronius Arbiter II 9 years ago

I don't intend to be callous or to tone down the seriousness of the crime. I am willing to bet a great deal that the amount of psychological and emotional trauma for a man being raped is going to be far less than a woman for whatever reasons, whether sociological or biological. That's not at all to undermine the crime, however. A man's insensitivity does not make anything he does wrong excusable.

Please tell me you're not even remotely suggesting any of that "far less trauma" stuff applies to male-on-male rape. There is a rather large body of work documenting how horribly traumatic that is.

And if you can imagine for even a few moments how violated you would feel after being penetrated by another man when you didn't want it, it ought to be possible to also imagine that a man who is sexually assaulted by a woman might in some cases feel just as traumatized as a raped woman feels.

"I don't deduce, I observe."

[–] InherentlyYours 8 years ago

In layman's terms YOU try it on for size sometime and THEN tell us it's no big deal

. That is because you routinely vent your anger on these topics. Because you were raped, it does not give you the unconditional right to judge others and conclude how rape affects different people. You will never cease in being biased against men, and rape; it will always be on your narrow-minded terms That's right, ignore and keep practicing your denial; it must make you feel special

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] Zorione 13 years ago

I'm not a lawyer, but I think most jurisdictions in the United States--and throughout the world--do make these sorts of distinctions when it comes to prosecuting rape. For instance, this is a list of offenses defined in Chapter 14 of the New Jersey Criminal Code, the section that covers sex-related crimes:

Aggravated Sexual Assault - Victim Less than 13
Aggravated Sexual Assault - Victim at Least 13 but Less than 16
Aggravated Sexual Assault (during commission of crime)
Aggravated Sexual Assault In The Course of a Felony: Consent Alleged
Aggravated Sexual Assault (while armed with weapon/object)
Aggravated Sexual Assault
Aggravated Sexual Assault- Physical Force or Coercion with Severe Personal Injury
Aggravated Sexual Assault(Mentally Incapacitated)
Sexual Assault - Victim Less Than 13 Actor at Least 4 Years Older than Victim
Sexual Assault - Force/Coercion
Sexual Assault - Victim Under Supervision
Sexual Assault (victim at least 16 but less than 18)
Sexual Assault - Defendant Four Years Older Than Victim Between 13 and 16

And these are just the crimes classified as sexual assault. There are many more.

[–] lornamd-1 12 years ago

Why exactly should date rape be considered less than cases with "monsters hiding in the bushes"?

Date rape victims are not any less traumatized because they know the rapist than victims of stranger rape are so why should the punishment be less? And if you read the evidence against Mike Tyson - a witness testified his accuser looked scared and shocked afterwards, she had injuries consistent with rape, he's been accused of rape and abuse by many other women, he told Jose Torres he likes making women bleed and cry when he makes love to them, he says he wishes he raped his accuser and her mother and says he "crossed the line" with other women but not her - you might not be so sure he is innocent.

There is different degrees in how someone is punished for a sex crime and I'll give examples:

Sexual abuse of a child or adolescent is punished more harshly than of an adult
Sexual abuse by an authority figure is punished more harshly
Sexual abuse of mentally or physically disabled people is also punished more harshly
A sexual assault involving violence, kidnapping or weapons will get a harsher sentence
A multiple offender sexual assault is considered worse than an assault by one person

So there are different degrees its just those degrees aren't based on the ridiculous idea that being traumatized by someone you know is somehow better than being traumatized by a stranger and that is what people mean when they say that "Rape is rape". They are saying there aren't different degrees just that rape should always be treated as a serious crime.

[–] englisher101 12 years ago

Why exactly should date rape be considered less than cases with "monsters hiding in the bushes"?

Intent: criminal acts originate from the mind.

Threat: a person willing to commit the crime with any suitable victim is far more dangerous than one who carries out the crime in a very particular circumstance with a very particular victim. Someone hiding in the bushes with a gun and hoping to kill a random person is far more dangerous than a man wanting to kill his cheating wife.

Rehabilitation: the man willing to kill random people in the above scenario could very easily go back to his ways if he's not completely rehabilitated, and it'd be hard to trust him in any case. The man who killed his cheating wife is probably not going to go on a random killing spree.

That said, it's not necessarily a lesser crime. A despicable act is a despicable act, but which one would be more terrifying to have in your neighborhood? A college student convicted of date rape or a known stalker who rapes random women? The latter is far more dangerous and terrifying. For the latter kind, a woman could become a victim simply by walking alone at night. For the former kind, you'd have to actually date the creep to be in any danger.

[–] lornamd-1 12 years ago

Most rapes are planned whether they are date rapes or stranger rapes.

Just because someone is convicted of date rape doesn't mean that they only rape people they date.

For a start date rape can actually be the rape of anyone who the victim knows socially but aren't dating. Most rapists are repeat offenders and someone who rapes someone they date most likely has other victims.

The m25 rapist and the black cab rapist both raped strangers and at least one women they knew or were dating and I know this is an extreme example but Gary Heidnik the serial rapist and murderer also raped his wife. If you read the book I Never Called It Rape theres an interview with a woman who was raped by her husband and he also tried to rape both her sisters.

I would be frightened of a rapist moving into my area regardless of whether they it was a stranger rape or date rape they were convicted of because all rapists are dangerous.

[–] ElizaB27 12 years ago

So let me get this right, according to you there is a different degree of rape? You do know rape is rape, right? Regardless if it's a stranger jumping out of the bushes with a gun or someone the victim knows, the victim is FOREVER traumatized. In the case of Mike Tyson, you weren't there. How could you make that determination? Celebrities are NO different than the average Joe. They are capable of rape and DO get away with it because they are celebrities with money and the jury pities them. Consent dispute, really? That's watering down what date rape really is: RAPE!
Not all feminists think the same. There are different feminists out there.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." -Gandalf the Grey

[–] Tommen_Forever 8 years ago

Shhhhh, he's mansplaining. You must listen attentively and don't interrupt.

-------------
Life doesn't imitate art, it imitates bad television

[–] ElizaB27 8 years ago

Lol. Got it.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. -Gandalf the Grey

[–] InherentlyYours 8 years ago

So let me get this right, according to you there is a different degree of rape? You do know rape is rape, right?

Yes, do you? So, because you're a woman, you have a license to claim-all-or-nothing. That is not fair nor smart of you. So according to you, there is no difference in forced brutal rape by some stinking ugly pig for hours, and a woman being forced against her wishes being at the mercy at her boyfriend whom she already knows and does not incur physical pain.

Regardless if it's a stranger jumping out of the bushes with a gun or someone the victim knows, the victim is FOREVER traumatized

Have you met all rape victims, girlie? Have you? Do you care about men being scarred and forever traumatized, or do you think men can take it? Don't speak for all women. Some women are callous as hell, and some are not.

[–] Arwen2436 8 years ago

What are you talking about? Whether the woman knows the assailant or not is a moot point. If she's raped, she's traumatized. Battered women can tell you that.
And I never said anything about male victims. If anything, male victims are traumatized more because their manpower was taken from them.
And I've met quite a few rape victims over the years, being one myself, and working at the Women's Shelter for 4 years with both women and men.
I can't unsee what I saw there.

[–] InherentlyYours 8 years ago

What are you talking about? Whether the woman knows the assailant or not is a moot point. If she's raped, she's traumatized. Battered women can tell you that.

It's only a moot point if you only see black and white, and not gray. Battered women cannot tell me that, since they fall into different categories, and every woman is different. Some forms of depression are significantly worse than others, some forms of psychosis are different than others, some forms of trauma are worse than others, some victims are stronger/weaker than others. This really should go without saying. But, according to you, that excludes rape.

And I've met quite a few rape victims over the years, being one myself, and working at the Women's Shelter for 4 years with both women and men.

Good for you. Perhaps a trial-work study at a mental-hospital would also expose you to the myriad of conditions associated with psychological pain. Is that your avatar; you are young and extremely self- assured it seems. It may take some wisdom on your part to distinguish the aforementioned differences, if you cannot ascertain the bigger picture now. And use some humility as you go about learning.

[–] Petronius Arbiter II 9 years ago

Okay, four years later so you'll probably never see this, but I'll take a shot anyway...

Once you trot out the word "feminazi," you've immediately surrendered all credibility.

"I don't deduce, I observe."

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Petronius Arbiter II 9 years ago

Paragraph one: Said no credible scientific study, ever. Wouldn't matter if any did. What people may fantasize about when it comes to rape, and the reality of rape, are two completely different things. By definition, nobody wants to be raped.

Paragraph two: See paragraph one. Or just keep believing your Foxbot bulljive, I couldn't care less.

"I don't deduce, I observe."

[–] Tommen_Forever 8 years ago

Once you trot out the word "feminazi," you've immediately surrendered all credibility.

It is curious how many people of low intelligence on the internet use the word like it means anything, instead of just being a made-up label used to silence disagreement by those without the means to articulate a rebuttal.

[–] rafaytherman 9 years ago

I would have no problem with all rapists getting the death penalty, castration or life in prison. They're the scum of the earth.