MovieChat Forums > Hellraiser (1987) Discussion > Experience Threshold

Experience Threshold

posted 4 years ago by Fandango (534)
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The postmodern paradigm confronts experience as the ultimate raison d'etre. It eschew objective truth and hierarchy, believing the latter to be a form of endless subordination in the form of order and structure. If there is an objective truth, that must mean there is an equivalent untruth, which means one of those concepts have diminished intrinsic value relative to the other. This is an opposing perspective, and therefore with postmodernism, there exists no hierarchy, no structure, and no objective truth. There exists only the pursuit of multi and varied experiences (travel, food, video games, movies, sex).

Hellraiser posits an interesting question, mainly regarding experience. If the main character's sensory experiences have been dulled through overexposure to the full spectrum of experience (eroticism, drugs, traveling and excitement), then how does one fulfill the perennial desire to feel good?

Frank has experienced the full spectrum of experience. He is quoted as saying, "I thought I had gone to the limits, but I hadn't. The cenobites gave me an experience beyond limits. Pain and pleasure. Indivisible." The idea that there is no objectivity (higher God or higher purpose), and that the point of life is to just feel, gather experience, or find your own meaning, leads Frank towards Hell. The cenobites grant him, much like the devil grants those who follow him, endless desire, unadulterated and without limits. Frank eschews objectivity (sleeping with brother's wife, wanting to rape Kirsty). He lives only for his own subjective experience, and views the experience itself as virtuous, independent of means of acquisition.

As he finds Hell, he transcends the experience threshold, reaching a state of ecstasy. The final scene where Frank is torn to pieces is similar to the old practice of lingchi, where victims die of a thousand cuts. There are photos of individuals who, despite their torture, are seen smiling and in a state of bliss.

The final scene embodies the transcendence of experience, culminating in the ultimate orgasm. When Frank says, "Jesus wept," we see his experience as reaching the polar extreme of asceticism, indulging in the ultimate form of hedonism. It is seen as a sacred moment, the culmination of taboo and pleasure.

[–] Moonglum9 (11311) 4 years ago

I don't agree

[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 4 years ago

As a Jewish Gnostic, this movie brought my focus towards Christianity. Since Frank says Jesus's name. I was curious about why Frank had to bring up the name of the most famous Jew in his moment of submission.

There's a story in the Gospels that does remind me of Hellraiser: Mark chapter 5:1-13. Which is probably one of the most occult stories in all of the Gospels.

I agree with your post. I think the real life equivalent to the Lament Configuration is probably psychedelics. Hellraiser is an exploration of pantheism.

[–] Fandango (534) 4 years ago

Jung outlined the black hole present in modern society. Where before that hole was filled with rituals, religion, or God, today that void is filled through consumerism. Fredric Jameson stated that within capitalism, there exists a type of schizophrenia, where the individual has no self-identity. The identity can be filled, at a moments notice, through advertising. The advertisement tells its audience that the object they purchase will complete them, therefore fulfilling the condition of meaning.

Extrapolating this notion to Frank, we see him as an individual stripped of identity and meaning. His identity is that of subjective pleasure and experience. His meaning is its endless pursuit. The squalid nature of his home, possessions, and appearance are symbolic of the disarray and emptiness in his soul.

All of the characters in the film are Godless. Frank's brother says that the religious items in the home mean nothing to him, his wife is an adulteress, and his daughter, willing and ready to utilize her seductive attributes for personal satisfaction. They have no unifying force, and therefore their plight, along with Frank's, can be seen as the result of the crumbling integrity present within society.

The religious symbolism is quite representative of Gnostic belief. As Kirsty is hiding from Frank, a Jesus figure falls down from the closet, giving away her position. This is symbolic of religion as the harbinger of death, as not being there for Kirsty when she is moments away from being consumed by the demonic. In Gnosticism, Lucifer was considered to be sent from God above (as juxtaposed with God the Creator, or demiurge), giving the message to the people of their true nature, that the world they inhabit is imperfect and a prison, from which they must escape. Applying the Gnostic themes in the film to Frank's final statement, we can interpret it to mean that Jesus, the embodiment of Lucifer, is crying—in delight—at Frank successfully escaping this prison.

[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 4 years ago

I will agree that people are more bored in modern society since all basic needs are met, but I don't think it's inherently bad. Most of what I buy are books and movies. Those are stories. Stories are everything to the individual. Stories are life. Buying and selling are apart of life. You're coming off as "Zen Buddhist/Fight Club" with the first point. Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber) let this nihilistic idea of modern society consume him and now he's in actual prison, ironically.

Things are more "simulated" nowadays, such as sex and violence. Video games have replaced acts of violence. A lot of millennials are single. But I don't see that as inherently bad, just as an opportunity to rethink this new epoch. Sex/violence are becoming taboo and less common - maybe why Frank went as far as he did with the Lament Configuration. Sex is an alien concept to radical feminists, incels, and MGTOWers. So is violence, now.

I think the last astrological age was Satanic. Not this new age. We live in the astrological age of "Pisces", which is the symbol of Christianity. Our entire calendar is based off of Jesus Christ incarnating into the world roughly 2020 years ago. You get canceled for the slightest sin in this age, like Jesus said. Even Ellen Degeneres is in trouble for her sins.

Cancel culture in the modern Western world and the whole trend of reboots/remakes in Hollywood is paving the way for Jesus to return, I think.

I combine Judaism, Gnosticism and Christianity. I don't see reality as something to escape. I see it as something to elevate. Spirituality is about elevating the mundane, not escaping the mundane.

[–] Fandango (534) 4 years ago

Good points.

Just to be clear, my posts are not meant to proselytize or condemn. I consider my sensibilities more in line with that of insouciance or neutral observation. That said, there is something to be said regarding the golden mean. We currently appear to live in a world of extremes, so the idea of temperance is foreign to most people. On one end of the spectrum we have films glamorizing materialism (i.e., Pretty Woman, Sex and the City); on the other end we have films eschewing materialism for minimalism (i.e., Fight Club and American Beauty). Neither paradigm should be viewed as aspirational, but rather as a cautionary tale of such extremes.

On a macroscale, this polarity was seen with the Soviet Union, which sought to create a Heaven on Earth without God, believing that Eastern Orthodoxy or religion had failed to produce a viable system. This later developed as a subtextual war of Protestant Capitalism against secular Communism. Oddly enough, "In God We Trust" wasn't adopted on currency until after WW2 to differentiate between the two competing nations.

I believe that items can serve a purpose if their utility is in spiritual or personal development. The mindless consumerism I am referring to is akin to swallowing a pill, where no active participation is required. I would argue that many people today do not internalize the information they're taking in. Consumption has become the goal in and of itself, which is part of the overarching contemporary paradigm of acquiring more and more experience. It is one thing to say that you have watched a film or read a book, but it is another to discuss its nuances and deeper points.

Interestingly enough, depending on the source, we are already in the Age of Aquarius. We can see the welcoming of this era depicted in certain films (i.e., The Graduate, Snowpiercer, Joker). While I understand what you mean, if the slightest sin brought consequences, we would see, for example, condemnation of pedophilia within churches,

As structure and cohesion within society disintegrate, all that is left is base human nature. Frank acts according to his instincts, instead of the cultivated disposition fostered by social constructs and institutional design. The film is arguably showcasing what happens when the latter falls apart, leaving only human impropriety.

[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 4 years ago

I used to watch many films, it used to be my thing. Not as much anymore. Hellraiser was one of the films that inspired me. Movies like Before Sunrise (1995, Linklater), Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me/Twin Peaks season 3, Waking Life (also Linklater), and The Master (PT Anderson) do this sort of thing for me. They remind me that I am not crazy. I only care to watch films like these. They woke me up, made me feel like there is more things to life than I thought. Few movies do this for me now.

Twin Peaks season 3 and Waking Life are the real big ones that pushed me unto my journey. There were weird Gnostic symbols in Twin Peaks season 3, that I had seen before in an occult book that I read. Too coincidental. Then, Waking Life led me to read the Torah.

I was once heavily into Gnosticism. Then Judaism. Finally, Christianity. The 3 are connected. You can't understand Christianity without first understanding Judaism/Torah. I wouldn't understand Torah without Gnosticism. Torah and Jesus are one in my head. I found Jesus in the Five Books of Moses, which was not easy to do. I've had a lot of luck though, in what I've discovered. Most Jews and most Christians can't actually tell you what the Bible means. I've had to do it all by myself. There is much more underneath the surface than one sees.

Ah, you remind me of a point in Leviticus and what Philo of Alexandria said. Moses commands you in Leviticus 11 to only eat animals that chew the cud and that have divided hooves. Those animals are: cows, goats, and sheep. They regurgitate the cud (several stomaches to process the food) - meaning to keep on "ruminating" on what you consume. Always ruminating and chewing on what you consume. To ruminate on the divide (divided hooves). Come and see, these animals are also vegetarian. Predatory (lions, panthers ) animals do not keep chewing. They only have one stomach.

[–] Fandango (534) 4 years ago

I find it interesting how you have ultimately chosen Christianity as your faith.

Do you believe there is an inherent supremacy within Jewish faith, which ultimately lends itself to a stifling spiritual development?

Rudolf Steiner, while not necessarily writing much about Judaism per se, makes reference to the "Ahrimanic forces" found within the spiritual world of humanity. This could be strongly expressed within Yahweism, which is attributed to materialism, control, gold, and concern over heredity.

There is much within the Christian experience which he described as "Luciferic" (aspiring towards idealism, sublimation, and mass emotion). Steiner regarded the Christ event as a kind of "fact of spiritual science," believing that a connection with the Christ element (incarnation of the Solar Logos on Earth) was a means by which humans could balance these two opposing forces within a human life. He posited that evil was merely a form of extreme imbalance within the psyche of humans (or the spiritual realm). We can see this in the form of extreme control with global surveillance grid, coupled with the out of control moral degradation led by those in control (pedophilia, greed).

The Old Testament and the Talmud do seem to be a repository of a lot of unbalanced ideas.

I find, and have discussed before, that the issue with contemporary religion is the inability to differentiate its temporal and spiritual aspects. It exists in the arena of competing tribal interests, with additions serving to benefit its aims as opposed to spiritual improvement.

Consider something like prayer, for example. If originally prayer was designed to bring one to proximity with God, now we see prayer directed towards prosperity, well-being, and abundance. It exists in the temporal realm as a means of material acquisition, lacking that spiritual component.

[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 4 years ago

Israel is at the center of the world. Israel is at the crossroads of Africa, Asia, and Europe. I don't know where else God could meet us at. If God is real and doesn't care to talk to us or give us the proper religion, then the world is truly Gnostic. Gnosticism is really like atheism, but with a thin layer of cold spirituality, in my view.

Ah, don't let other people explain it to you. There are good Torah/Bible/spiritualist commentaries out there, but some of the best insights I've made have been on my own. Completely on my own. And it takes a lot of time and focus. Sometimes, commentaries don't help at all. The Torah is kind of like calculus and math. A lot of different variables. It's a curse at times. When Deuteronomy/Joshua tells you to read it night and day, that's what you do.

The obsession of heredity is a spiritual lesson. It goes back to Adam and Eve. Your mate/lover should be of "your own bone, your own flesh". Since you're two halves of one body. Your lover is someone who is exactly like you (since Eve is taken from Adam's rib). Another example: Numbers chapter 36 - the 12 tribes of Israel will not be intermixing at all together, but each tribe shall remain separate. Each tribe has it's own different inheritance that cannot be forfeited.

You're very intelligent, but you're going about it from a textbook point of view. The Torah is not a textbook, but an evolving entity. I know that's vague and weird to say, but believe me - it is.

[–] Fandango (534) 4 years ago

Interesting perspective.

You have given me some things to ruminate over. I appreciate your input.

Thank you and stay safe.

[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 4 years ago

Dude, thank you. I appreciated our exchange. You made me do an interesting thought train. It's rare when I get to talk like this. I work in the private sector, so I'm not always allowed to. Have a good day!

[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 4 years ago

I love how historical the Jews are. Judaism had an original beginning: God speaking out loud to 3 million people at Mount Sinai. A nationalist revelation is rare to come by these days, spiritually speaking. Most religions are founded by the "individual" revelation. Think Muhammad, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, whatever have you. Single individuals experiencing a revelation, instead of a nation. So, the Jewish divine revelation is original.

The Jews were scattered in 70 AD, conquered by Rome. They've crossed paths with every civilization since then. They were spread out all across the world and then persecuted nonstop. They've been kicked out of every European nation. Hitler wasn't able beat them. Amazingly, they got back their homeland of Israel in 1947 after almost 2000 years of exile from it. I like their endurance, I like what they have confronted, I like their style. Those are a few reasons why I think they're interesting.

[–] motorcycledriveb (303) 4 years ago

Watch out for Cain, dude.

In Genesis chapter one, God spoke existence into being. 7 days, like us. It was very mundane, tedious, long and repetitive. But that's creation. That's true work and productivity. When Cain kills his brother in Genesis chapter four - it was very thrilling, mindless, quick, and primal. That's destruction. That's not humanity. Destruction is for animals and children.

What we're doing right here - conversation. Language. The writing of symbols and the meaning to them. It's something only humans can do. Other species can't speak.

Always believe in life, bro. Not death. Not Cain. Not Lucifer. But life.