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What was the net result of the final battle?

posted 2 years ago by PittPanthers47 (237)
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I have been rewatching some scenes of PLATOON on youtube and was wondering what exactly the result and aftermath of the final battle was. We know that many men in Bravo were killed and wounded and would no longer be there. Barnes, Lt. Wolfe, Bunny, Junior, and likely a good many others all were killed. Taylor, Francis were wounded and no doubt many others were wounded and medivaced out via chopper. We know that King left the platoon rather fortunately just before the final battle. So manpower was going to be a major problem for the platoon. They would have to rely on a vast number of replacements to take their place. They would be a very diminished fighting force for some time.

We see that Sgt. O'Neil was given Barnes' old job as Staff Sgt. (much to his dismay, it is hard to forget the look upon his weary face as Captain Rogers informs him of his subsquent promotion). Rhah likely will be getting moved up to more of a leadership role by virtue of still being standing after so much attrition. But most of the experienced and seasoned veterans of Bravo are now gone after this battle. It would be interesting to know if they will still be counted on as a fighting force for the time being with some many FNGs coming into the unit. Maybe they will get assigned to a firebase as guards or even rotated behind the lines so to speak to lick their wounds (REMF).

I think we can surmise that the feared NVA 141st Regiment was most likely ripped to shreds while making their attack on the dug in positions of the 25th Infantry that night. Yes, they did find success in overrunning Bravo and its elements but paid a horrible price in doing so and they likely were all but wiped out in the snake and nape attack that Captain Rogers ordered into his overrun perimeter. Whatever amount of survivors from the 141st that were able to trapse out of the area could not have been very plentiful and they were likely no longer a viable fighting force for some time until they could replenish their ranks.

As for the real estate that Bravo defended that night---like most physical land features in the Vietnam War it likely meant very little or most likely nothing at all to the US military and was most likely quickly abandoned. The American forces there likely withdrew once they recovered their wounded and were satisfied that the enemy had left the area.

It is interesting to think what happened after the end of the movie. The war probably just ground on for the survivors who emerged in one piece and the battle likely meant little if anything in terms of grand strategy.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

So manpower was going to be a major problem for the platoon. They would have to rely on a vast number of replacements to take their place. They would be a very diminished fighting force for some time.

yes pitts it is cycle of war. there platoon is finish and a new one will replace them now.

taylor is introduce at beginning coming off aircraft and at end of film he leave on aircraft. this mean that a new platoon will come in and new platoon will have new leaderships, new FNGs, and only a few old face. it will be a new taylor who come in.

I think we can surmise that the feared NVA 141st Regiment was most likely ripped to shreds while making their attack on the dug in positions of the 25th Infantry that night. Yes, they did find success in overrunning Bravo and its elements but paid a horrible price in doing so and they likely were all but wiped out in the snake and nape attack.

yes you can hear radioman after battle say "estimate 500 victor charlie KIA and still counting. Over" meaning 500 VC have been annihilate by GI's.

the radioman also say 37 GI KIA. this is almost consistent with overall kill ratio of vietnam war which was 10-1.... over 10-1 body count is consider big victorys to america in vietnam war. this was strategy - crush your enemys.

it is little known fact that is discuss but america did not lose single major battle in nam. anytime the commies take on america they got hose down like fly shits on windscreen. it is not even funny how much they annihilate but commies brag about winning this war hahahahahha

this was MO of communist - it do not matter how many young men they send to death. it does not matter to them. in stone film 'heaven and earth' a VC says they were like "ants being squash under foot elephant" which is true.

and yes what you say is true. after battle the GI's will police up extra ammo and frags and will leave area. the area mean nothing to them - just staging area for killing many commies. this happen all over war.

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

Some great thoughts once again here, BO! Sorry for the delay in getting back to you as i was caught up in the Pitt hoops game last night. That is a great catch there about the radioman talking about the 500 NVA dead. I'll have to listen for that. What is the size of an NVA regiment? I may guess around 1,000 men strong in full strength. But being that they were in the field it was probably down to like 600, 700 or so. Yes, they got all but wiped out. It is also probably worth noting that many of them were completely incinerated in the American airstrike that Rogers called in. One thing I did notice about the NVA soldiers of the 141st is that their uniforms looked nice and clean like they may have been fresh troops or at least recently refitted.

You also make a good call on Ho Chi Minh's willingness to lose ten of his soldiers to every one of the enemy. That is pretty tough to fight an opponent that is willing to incur those types of losses. And yes, it is true that America really never lost a battle in Vietnam but ultimately was not successful at face value.

One question about the final battle that I did wish to inquire about is the date of it? We know that Oliver Stone took part in a rather big battle on New Years Day 1968 on which he based it on. We know on January 1 that the men of Bravo took part in the village raid and subsquent atrocities. i guess we need to figure out how much time went by until the final battle for the film's sake. Possibly it was very late January when the Tet Offensive got underway. As i noted the NVA do seem to have good and clean uniforms. This would make sense.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

no problems for delay pitt cos i do not mind if you reply two month from now hahaha

One question about the final battle that I did wish to inquire about is the date of it?

yes your guess is correct pitt. end battle is base on real life battle that oliver stone take part in when his firebase become besiege by charlie during tet offensive in jan/feb '68. this is at time when nva throw masses of soldier all over south of vietnam in attempt to pin back capitalist forces. the nva come close to overrunning stone's firebase but airstrikes help them just like in movie

oliver stone being in nam is important as it help make this film look and feel real.

the vietman war was a lot of search and destroy. find enemy and then fight real big battle. for most battle, GI's would wipe out charlie with superior firepower, take a body counts, and claim victory and then leave area they just fight in. then charlie would move back into area once coast is clear and then claim territory back and thus claim victory hahahahah. the nva probably claim they won end battle in this movie when they move in after americans leave hahaha

insane war! all that deaths for nothing but we at least got great movies out of it so not all bad.

yes the nva wear proper uniform and are well train and equipped while vc wear basically pyjamas. they are rag tag. nva more fearsome and trained in soviet tactic. i think you are right nva regiment 500-1000 men - this would be terrifying prospects if they head towards your firebase!! i piss my pant if i were in GI position so respect to all soldier who fight wars.

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

Thanks for the reply, BO. Yeah, I am not sure how much time goes by in the film between January 1 and the day of the village raid until the final battle. But probably assuming that the final battle is a part of the Tet Offensive is not a bad way to go. We get no mention of Tet so it probably was a case of all hell breaking lose that night of the final battle. That would put it at around the end of January to the best of my understanding.

My personal feeling of Vietnam and why we were there was as simple as it merely being a firewall that we put up to stop the tide of communism from spreading at such a quick rate. Both the USSR and China had to put an ungodly amount of money and materials into this war rather than trying to merely spread their brand elsewhere. I suppose in some ways it did work rather well so long as you did not have to be the ones out there fighting it and chewing up the communist supplies.

[–] Enigmaticocean77 (2446) 2 years ago

What A great thread. I had no idea that the Americans never lost a battle in Viet Nam. The media has portrayed it as if America was slaughtered there and got their asses kicked. Thank you for the information.

I have not seen this movie for around 15 years. I will have to watch it again.

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

Thank you, EnigmaticOcean77. BO is a great poster and just full of fantastic insights.

Yes, it really is true that America did do quite well in the major engagements of the war. Take the Tet Offensive of 1968 for example----it was a horrible military defeat for the NVA and VC troops who carried it out but it also very likely spelled the end of any chance of public opinion being won in the US as the massive communist assault all over South Vietnam proved that the Communist forces were nowhere near as vanquished as what was portrayed. It was the end of American public opinion and popular support for the war in the US.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

yes i recommence you watch platoon again. i grow up watching platoon on shit vhs copy that was 1000 year old from local shitty video store and i still think film is great despite not being ables to see half screen. to watch in HD - perfect

i also recommence great film with the goat actor bill paxton where he play advisor in vietnam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fafc0ThP7R0

stones vietnam trilogy - platoon, born on fouth and heaven & earth - great film

apoclypse now is comic book vietnam film. but good. full metal jacket and casualties of war good too. hamburger hill is shit

[–] Enigmaticocean77 (2446) 2 years ago

I would love to own it on VHS! I collect VHS tapes.

I have seen all of them (except for the youtube linked one) but haven't watched any of them in 15 to 20 years. I will have to have a marathon when I have time.

I didn't enjoy the second half of Full Metal Jacket, but I understand when other people do.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

yes i try to start vhs collection from ebays a few year ago for nostagia's but only manage a few so far. my familys rent jaws 3 and superman 3 from video store when i was kid and i buy them on vhs for nostalgia!

i am opposite of you in that i like second half of full metal jackets and not fan of first half so much. i think it is tragedy to see this poor fat man be torture by fellow maggots. i prefer second half with war!!

very difficult for me to watch this scene of code red on private pyle! i see boy be treated this way when i in school and see similar reaction and it haunt me since.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

We get no mention of Tet so it probably was a case of all hell breaking lose that night of the final battle. That would put it at around the end of January to the best of my understanding.

if i were to guess pitt i would say 31st january 68. this is day of attack on america embassy in saigon by viet cong commando squad who were on suicide missions. all major tet attacks were done starting on this day - hue etc. charlie catching everyone with pant down with synchronize attack.

also in this film, they say taylors platoon is 25th infantry which is station on cambodian border. this is strategic point to stop communist troop/supplys coming down from north through "ho chi minh trail" into south. meaning that taylor's firebase that get attack at end of film is at epicenter of nva troops coming down from north... so basically the real shits hahahahahahah

My personal feeling of Vietnam and why we were there was as simple as it merely being a firewall that we put up to stop the tide of communism from spreading at such a quick rate

yes exactly. everything you say here is correct. it was usa 'proxy' war with russkie and china. a chance for american to flex military boner with latest soviet technologys.

if america was as serious about vietnam as they were about ww2, then they would have invade north vietnam and won war within 2 years. maybe with less than 58000 casualties. the linebacker B-52 air raids in 1972 were proof american could win war with quick victory if they want - north were pussying out when the B-52s came hahaaahaha

usa could also drop nukes on nam if they want. they could do many thing, but they also scare of russia and china. they do not think vietnam is worth it. waste of time i say. 58000 dead and many more injure like man in born on the fourth of july. for nothing!!

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

Very well said as always, BO! You certainly must be a student of history. Yes, January 31 was the opening day of the Tet Offensive. Good chance that was when the final battle takes place.

I also agree that the US could have easily vanquished North Vietnam but as you say---the fly in the ointment was USSR and China and the Cold War. Korea was much like this as well. Combat by proxy was the new type of war after WW II with the proliferation of the atomic and nuclear age. By that I simply mean the two sides would in a sense fight each other but not directly. We certainly see that today in Ukraine. Same thing except that the Russians are the ones in direct combat while we provide everything and the kitchen sink. The Soviets excursion into Afghanistan was certainly like this as well. Every time they took one of their fearsome helicopter gunships around a ridge their was a future Taliban with a Stinger missle.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

thank you pitt for your nice words i hope you are having nice weekends. it is pleasure to speak to kind and intelligent poster like you as it make great change from many ill temper retard i see on internet discussions!!

but i must say i am no students of history hahahaha. i just watch video on youtube and read article on wikipedia. i get given history books but can never finish i have poor attention spans hahah.

vietnam is big part of 20th century culture. fascinating wars!!

yes i agree 100% these proxy war are like groundhog day. it never change. american have revenge on russia for vietnam with afghanistan. now it is ukraine. your general le may wanted to nuke russia maybe he has point because they are giant pest that never go away hahah

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

I am having a good weekend, BO. Thank you for asking. My Pitt Panthers did well competing in the March Madness. It was a good season. I suppose that I have been a student of history. I hold a master's degree in American History. i wish I had more time to read like years ago but am mostly relegated to scrolling through things on the net nowdays. But nonetheless a true trove of wonderful information.

The study of the Vietnam War for me has been somewhat peculiar. Growing up in the 1970s and 1980s Vietnam was NEVER mentioned or taught in the public schools. It was a dirty word to a good many people. My parents talked about it as some dirty secret when they talked about it at all. My father was in the US Army from 1959-1962 and just missed being sent there. Both my parents knew guys who died over there. It was not a big subject of conversation around the house. Nor too many places for that matter. That made me want to read about it and learn what really happened there. It was a taboo subject to say the least.

My take on Russia is that the problem is absolutely NOT the Russian people at all. It is the rouge form of government that they are subjected to. It would be nice if the West could fund a revolution, coup, or takeover of the government and eradicate Putin and his regime (as well as the whole silly notion of a communist/facist state). It would be great to establish Russia as a democracy. I think their people would like that. But they have to want that for themselves and be willing to stand up for it. The West could provide them with the needed tools but due to the nuclear threat likely could not invade them. The Russian people need a garbage despot like Putin like they need a hole in the head. It's time for him to go.

One question about Platoon that I do have for you----what type of ordnance was used in the airstrike that Captain Rogers called in during the final battle? We know they planned to use snake and nape earlier in the battle with Rhah's warning.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

is that college sport? i know you american go crazy for college sport hahaha. i see friday night lights - good film. you seem to take school/college sport more serious than pro league. i like this

yes that is unfortunate your parent know people who are killed in nam. i think stone's film born on fourth of july do a good job of showing effect of war on human and peoples back home. it is a film that open my eyes to suffering of one man, so imagine that times many more and it is very bad for so many.

that is great you study america history pitt this is fascinating subject. america is great country with great historys do not listen to the woketards. it was my dream to live there but i do not want to live alongside so many woketards

if the problem is not the russian people then they need to rise together and do something but never do. i agree with what you say helping them with coups, this would help, but do they have desire for this? not sure. russkies are strange

yes pitt good question. they use Mk 82 Snake-eye bomb and napalms in final battle. i think this was standard ordinance for vietnam air strike as i see it in lots of footage. this is confirm with Capt. Hill's conversation with F-5 fighter pilot who circling above battlezone:

Capt. Hill: Be advised, we got zips in the wire down here.

F-5 Pilot: Roger your last, Bravo Six. Can't run it any closer. We're hot to trot and packing snake and nape, but we're bingo on fuel.

Capt Hill: For the record, it's my call! Dump everything you've got left on my pos! I say again, expend all remaining in my perimeter! It's a lovely fucking war. Bravo Six out.

F-5 Pilot: Roger your last, Bravo Six. We copy. It's your call. Get 'em in their holes down there. Hang tough, Bravo Six. We are coming cocked for treetops.

I think it was mostly snakeeye they use. at end of battle you see lots of GI survivors (and zero nva) and that is because most hide in fox-hole/bunker when bomb hit, and napalm was design to burn and also deprive enemy soldier of oxygen who are hiding in cover and they suffocate. so napalm did not take out these GI.

i think GI survive with snake-eye being used. so it must be mosly snakeeye dropped by F-5 fighter with maybe one napalm and that hit center of firebase and incinerate mostly charlie.

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

Great info here. Yeah, okay, i was going to say that there is no way they would drop napalm on an American position still being held. You would kill everyone for sure. Plus, we see in the morning that everything and everyone is not burnt to a crisp. Everything is mostly intact although it is a horrible scene with all the carnage from the final battle. The F-5's would likely have used the nape only in areas filled with NVA troops.

That was a great exchange between the Captain and the pilot. Platoon was filled with such moments that really payed attention to detail. It was what made it so special. Thanks for putting that up and as well as the info.

Yeah, I was watching basketball over the weekend. What country are you from, BO?

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

That was a great exchange between the Captain and the pilot. Platoon was filled with such moments that really payed attention to detail. It was what made it so special. Thanks for putting that up and as well as the info.

yes i agree pitt 1000%. platoon is unmatch in film history for realistic. it look and feel like you are their in the shit with these grunts! incredible war film.

the actor who play capt. hill (if you not know already) is dale dye who is real vietnam vet and he train actor in film and prepare them for war with real patrols in jungle and live fire exersise.

i see documentary which say dale dye ask to be in film as technical advisors because he think other nam movies made before platoon did not have proper advisor and that mean they were not realistic.

he also tell funny story of putting actors in platoon through real life exersise of war explosions/firefight and he tell actors while picking up his gun to "give me a magazine" and they pass him real magazine instead hahhahaahahah

dale dye is fascinateing man and actor

i live in alexandria, egypt but i am not born here i move here as older teen

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

LOL. Funny story. Yeah, I would probably have passed him Sports Illustrated, Time or Rolling Stone as well. Magazine. I did some reading on Dale Dye the other night. Amazing life story. He was outstanding as the Captain in this. He seemed so real. The aforementioned conversation with the pilot was great as was his chat on radio with the young overwhelmed soldier on the ambush/forward detail being slaughtered by the NVA just before the final battle.

I suppose I have not seen all the Vietnam movies out there but the only other one that I thought was on the level of Platoon was Apocalypse Now. But you are correct that Platoon does do a great job o f making you feel like you are right there in the jungle with the grunts. Amazing film and certainly Dale Dye contributed much to this with the film mastery of Stone.

Egypt, okay. That is interesting. Good on you that you know so much about American history. You no doubt know more about it than just about 99% of Americans. I certainly learned some things from you on here. You have an excellent grasp of military knowledge.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

hi pitt. yes excellent observations of scene where captain hill talk to soldier in distress on radio. it is such great scene and really help with atmosphere and is perfect set up for epic end battle. poor GI! i like this film even more when it think of little great scene like this!

i think apocalypse is great film but it is not great nam film. from beginning of apocalypse now until helicopter assault - great nam. from end of helicopter assault til end of movie - not great nam. i enjoy AP as comic book nam film.

apocalypse now also have horrible issue with accuracys that take me out of movie and ruin experiences:

if you look at rifle that GI carry in nam - iconic M16. you see every picture of nam the GI have M16 ammo clip which is short. in apocalypse now they have M16 with long 'banana' clip - this is like having world war 2 movie with choppers. banana clips are only after nam film. so that makes me think it is 1979 film not nam film.

you will see some nerds claim banana clips were in nam but probably just few GI have them at end of war in '72 - not entire division of 1st of the 9th Cavalry in 1969 nam hahahhahahahaahah

platoon have so much attention to details that oliver stone contact marlboro to make authentic cherry color cigarette pack especially for film so that when barnes light up and put pack on his helmet - it is actual marlboro pack from 67/68. that is why platoon is goat nam film.

yes i may be from region where many hate america but i always respect america they are good fighter. they seem like fun people to me i like there culture. but again, only peoples like you and dale dye are cool. i hate woketards.

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

Okay, you got me on the banana clip thing. I would never have caught that. The helicopter assault scene in Ap. Now is probably the most iconic Nam scene ever filmed. It is hard to beat. Full Metal Jacket does a good job of showing boot camp for Marines and then urban combat in Hue during Tet but I could never climb aboard this film like some have.

Regarding Dale Dye' s Captain character---I have seen him with at least three different listed last names. Rogers, Harris, and now your Hill. Can you confirm what it really was? Did they ever actually say what his last name was in the film? i can't recall to be honest.

I have to agree that Platoon really did pay atttention to detail. That is interesting about Barnes cigs that we see in his helmet band throughout the film. That is attention to detail right there.

I think America can be summed up in terms of good and bad, sort of like what we saw in Platoon. You have those that are good and cool people and then those that are not too good at all. But i am sure you have that everywhere you go. I have read stories of Russians in Ukraine who have done nice things and some who have done some really horrible stuff. Just the way it is. America is all about the different races and ethnicities that have come and blended together to carve out a nation. There is a lot of differences but we are at our best when we all pull together for a common good. It acutually does happen sometimes.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

yes pitt helicopter assualt scene in AN is close to war movie perfections. it can not ever be redone! i watch that scene 1000 time when i was teen hahah. today they do that scene with cgi and it look shit. old classic film go extra mile and it look fantastic.

i think the reason why you probably can not connects to full metal jacket is because it is cold film. it do not have much emotion or warm feelings to its character like platoon. that is reason why i do not connect to fmj as much as platoon but hue scenes fantastic.

another film similar to fmj is hambuger hill. it have many character in it but not one is likable hahahahhah. all of the GI's are major dork in that film i cannot belive how crap they make that film!

i am sorry pitt you are correct. dale dye is not call capt. hill in platoon. dale dye play character in 'casualties of war' call capt hill. i get confuse because he play capt in both film hahah. i watch platoon and casualties of war many times when i was teenager! i do remember now he was call capt. harris in platoon but do not hear rogers. is that first name?

yes pitt well said. america is mixed bags but there are few nation on earth without bad historys. i think problem i have with many in america is you can not let go of past and too much poltics and obsession with pc. mianly because it make its way into film and ruin my enjoy of film.

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

Good call, BO on the characters in FMJ and even HH. Yes, I had never really thought of that before but they are not real life personalites that we can embrace like in Platoon. Cold. More just a number than a name. I didn't really love either of those movies I suppose. Platoon was just so real to me on a personal level. I felt like I knew the characters and cared about them. Or in a few cases did not really like them very much at all.

Okay, Captain Harris? I was reading something somewhere and they referred to him as Rogers. No matter, great job here by Dale Dye. He added a lot to the film.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

yes oliver stone is good writer, pitt. i think he know how to write film with character you can relate to or find something in.

it is a special skill for writer to create character this way. it is not easy to write like this as full metal jackets and hamburger hill show. it is so important to have something to relate to as viewer. we have this in platoon which is why we talk about this film today.

i dont know what went wrong with hamburger hill. the director john irvin made some good film in the era - dogs of war, next of kin & raw deal. it should have been much better. FMJ is what i would expect from kubrick making nam film in London. HH is missed opporuntity!

enjoy your weekend pitt

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

That is actually very well said there, BO. Character development is crucial to a film or book to be embraced. The viewer or reader has to care or at least be able to relate to the characters on the screen or page. Yeah, Stone just nailed it here. Taylor the innocent wide-eyed newcomer. King the nice guy. Elias the saintly presence. Rhah the pragmatist. Francis the funny guy. Barnes the eye of the storm who goes too far. Wolfe the lost guy in over his head. O'Neill the guy just trying to get by. Bunny the violent nutcake. Junior the guy lacking a lot.

It just all works so well. And I have never forgotten any of these guys. I can't say that i related to anyone in FMJ except for Joker or Pyle but even they seemed to be more caricatures as was Sgt. Hartley. I really didn't have too much of a human connection wtih them. Maybe Pyle when he messed up and got abused and Joker a few times but all in all it didn't work. HH seemed like a hot mess to be honest. Some people like this film but I could never warm up to it much.

Probably the only Vietnam type movies that I can think of that had characters that I could say were good was UnCommon Valor and Casualties of War. Of course Valor takes place a decade after the war. Michael J Fox and Sean Penn did deliver in Casualties of War. This movie does stand the test of time. Bat 21 wasn't bad either. It told an interesting story. These films all had characters we could get to know and care about. I think that is maybe were FMJ and HH missed the mark.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

Taylor the innocent wide-eyed newcomer. King the nice guy. Elias the saintly presence. Rhah the pragmatist.,....

yes excellent description pitt. movie scholar can write book on character in this film. i have not seen platoon in long time but i remember every character very clear.

i like how they say there is civil war amongst GI in which two sides of platoon against each other. fascinating! barnes with his ball washers - oneill, wolfe etc. and elias has what are more like disciple who follow his positivity.

director stone shows elias' side of platoon hanging in bunker which is dark but illuminated with good spirits of his men and there lively musics and hemp. while barnes's side are in barracks which have more light but dreary atmosphere of crap musics, nut hugging, boring card game and oneill laughing at his own jokes hahahahah.

both sides of platoon not divided by race as you see warren, junior and rodriguez with barnes side. the platoon is divided by spirit - positive and negative minded peoples. this is like life itself.

Hamburger hills problem is it try to be too realism. it is too fugly in tone. it have actors who they thought were next big thing but they were total mediocre (no disrespects to them). in platoon most of the main actor when to be huge success in 80s and 90s.

yes casualties of war is fantastic war film. sean penn and michael fox were hottest actors in 80s and to get them to play opposite was great choice. big thanks to head of film studio called dawn steel who wanted to get this film made at colombia pictures with big budget when no other major studio wanted to make it. it is great study of war and nam. and is best looking nam film by far.

bat 21 and uncommon valor is good nam film. i would put uncommon valor in rambo/missing in action category of comic book nam.

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

i was always touched by the story of valor and sacrifice of Uncommon Valor to be honest. Here we have guys who survived the horrors of Vietnam and yet they go back to help a forgotten brother who was detained there. It was a rather touching story with some great actors. It was a film that did move a lot of people in its day when you would see the POW flags everywhere here in America. It was probably the ONLY thing that Americans agreed upon and embraced in regards to Vietnam. Of course, I don't believe that any POWs or MIAs were ever found in Southeast Asia after the end of hostilties.

You do make a great comment about race in Platoon. Yes, you are most correct here and make a great observation. the split in the platoon had absolutely nothing to do with race. It was Elias and Barnes and those who chose to follow them. It is significant to bring up the issue of race when you consider the time period and all of the strife back in America over it. We really did not see racism being an issue. Like the old saying goes---there are no atheists in fox holes. There are likely no racsists either. Meaning you need to count on the guy next to you with your life.

I think Casualties of War is that rare film that has carried better and better into the years. It does have a powerful impact on the viewer. That last scene with Michael J Fox on the bus or train and seeing the Vietnamese girl is really a powerful one and one that is hard to forget. It shows exactly how affected and haunted these guys are and always will be.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

hi pitt. great point - no racist in fox holes hahaha.

yes hamburger hills make one fatal mistake and that is unlike platoon it try to make big deal about race in many scenes. it did nothing to make film more interesting because hamburger did not have the right quality of actor or scripts to tell this difficult issue. stone's platoon handle internal strife of soldiers much more convincing. it break down problems with men in more basic way and it made film better to watch.

do you see UV as nam movie, pitt? but yes that is good point this film united peoples. it is great story. a film i enjoyed much when i first see it. it is just about saving men left behind. there is no politics to this. there is just saving good man. everything should appreciate this. this film, rambo 2 and MIA are goat nam action.

yes they did not want scene in casualties of war when michael fox see nam girl on bus at end. that was put in later against many peoples wishes from studio head to producer. i think this is great scene. i always see that scene as nam girl's ghost forgiving michael fox for not saving her and telling him to move on. great scene! and yes this is film that get better with time.

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

I suppose that we have to label such films as Uncommon Valor, Rambo 2, the MIA films as post-Vietnam War movies. Their stories are after the end of the official hostilites ended. In fact, I believe that tomorrow marks the 50-year anniversary of when US combat troops left Vietnam. Of course there was still the friction of the fall of Saigon but regarding actual land-based combat troops it will be 50 years.

That is interesting about the final scene in COW. Okay I think I did read that once. That scene is everything in my opnion. It made a pretty good movie a very good movie and ensured that most who saw it would never forget it. The look of torment and anguish on Fox's face was haunting. It was implicit that the girl had other former vets approach her before. She seemed to be be adept at handling it. I do like your take that it was like the ghost of the girl who died in the war telling him that everything was fine. Go live your life. It was over now. Another nice take you make on a film.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

hi pitt. wow i did not know this was 50 year anniversary of end of nam! i completely forgot when this was i remember i thought it was jan/feb 73 sometime but this must be mistake. how time flys! when platoon was release it was only 13 year after nam! amazing hahaha.

yes thank you pitt for saying you like my take. film are better when you look at them in different ways. maybe is ghost or maybe not, it does not matter, because what you interpret yourselfs adds to movie experience. film maker sometimes leave that decision up to you. i like it this way. he see girl one more time and she tell him its ok - time for him to let go of pain.

yes i agree end scene of COW is important.many of de palmas film end in dream or surreal state. end of casualites of war seem surreal so i can understand why they do not want.

have you seen heaven & earth/born on fourth of july? good nam films.

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

I've never seen Heaven and Earth. I have seen parts of Born on Fourth of July over the years. It never really grabbed me but it sounded like it was an important film for what it conveyed and had to say. Certainly it was horrible what happened to so many disabled Vietnam vets who came home horribly wounded. They got stuck in rundown VA hospitals that were basically rat infested slums. It was a disgrace.

I was watching some of Uncommon Valor today as I came across it. Have you seen the Vietnam scenes in Dead Presidents and Forrest Gump? They are pretty good even if the films they are in are not Nam films per se.

Have you seen the Green Berets with John Wayne (1968). It really gets trashed pretty bad as right wing drivel.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

Heaven & Earth and BOTFOJ are great movie but will not put you in good moods. you have to be ready for this kind of films. so i can see what they have not been on your radar, pitt.

Oliver Stone sees both film as part 2 and 3 of his nam trilogy along with goat platoon. the scene in these two films showing 1960s/70s america are what peaked my interest america - great scenes showing what fascinating countrys these are in this era.

i have seen dead presidents once long time ago and cannot remember the nam scenes. however i loved forrest gump when i was kid and the nam scenes in that are great!

have you seen jacobs ladder? good nam scenes in that at beginning although rest of film is weird. same with deer hunters.

if you have not seen, i also recommence a film called bright shining lie which stars goat bill paxton as military advisor in nam. it show battle scene of viet cong raid on us embassy during tet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fafc0ThP7R0

yes i have seen green berets. it is slower than a week in detention but i like these film. i do not care about polltics of film as long as film is ok. do you like we were soldier?

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

Goodness you are insightful, BO! i think that I have seen some of A Bright Shining Lie years ago. I think I have the book in my library by Neil Sheenan IIRC. I should revisit some of that as I do not recall much about it.

Jacobs Ladder is a very odd and intriguing movie that really kept one guessing as to what was really happening. I did like it. The Deer Hunter to me is pure crap. It made no sense at all to me. There was never any evidence whatsoever that American POWs were ever forced to play Russian Roulette anywhere and yet it is a central theme of the movie. They hardly show any actual combat scenes. I live in western PA where the movie takes place and they botched the landscape badly as they used mountain footage from the Pacific Northwest. I saw the movie when i was 16 or so and even then knew it was garbage.

One odd movie that comes to mind was I believe entitled 1969 with Robert Downey and Keifer Sutherland (I think). That final scene always haunted me as his brother left for the war on the bus. That had to be a hard time to deal with.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

haha thank you pitt it is privledge to talk to non-philistine. i am impress you have wide knowlege and good tastes in film.

yes i agree deer hunter is typical overblown film from this era it is far too over the tops to be enjoy properly. i have seen this once on tv and that is enough!

are there not mountain in pennsylvania? i did not know this but i do not know much about this state except steel industrys. i also watch documentarys on youtube about how all great nfl quarterback come from this state. fascinating state. have you seen film call iron maze which is set in Pennsylvania?

i belive i have seen 1969. this if film of two people in small town before they join nam. i watch it as i am big fan of downey jr and kiefer.

other films with nam is universal soldier. opening scene is very good - like mini movie. it remind me of scene from casualties of war. very dark. have you seen this?

have you seen nam tv show from 80s call tour of duty? i see some of it on tv when i was young. all i remember was production look cheap and actors shit but some good storyline sometimes

[–] PittPanthers47 (237) 2 years ago

Thank you for your kind words, BO. Yes, Western PA did boast some very legendary QBs at one time. Joe Namath, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, Johnny Unitas. Big football area. I played when I was younger, though I guess not very well. All The Right Moves was a superb movie about high school football in the early 1980s. I never heard of the Iron Maze .

Yeah, we do have many mountains and ridges here in PA but they are very different looking from the mountains such as the Rockies and Cascades out west. No comparsion in appearance.

I have heard of Universal Soldier. I used to watch Tour of Duty all the time in high school. Yeah, it was a bit tacky in some ways but also kind of good at times as you say. It was interesting. I remember Vietnam War Story around that time on HBO. A Rumor of War (1980) with Brad Davis was a good Nam tv miniseries. It was this film and Vietnam War story that I decided not to go ahead with my planned enlistment in the US Army my senior year.

[–] BOandBarbecue (2264) 2 years ago

no problemo pitt. yes all the right moves! great film! tom cruise and craig nelson and chris penn! football must be strong part of culture in pensylvania. i love sports culture. this must be great place for sports! must be something in water in pensylvania to produce all this great athelete and fanatcism!

i did not know you have moutains in pensylvania i thought it was mostly flat! i enjoy the atmosphere and setting of pensylvania film - it seem like place of strong character. i prefer this place over florida

iron maze is film set among abandon steel mill in pensylvania. oliver stone produce this film and it star some great actor - JT walsh and jeff fahey. however if you do not like serious drama movie that can be dark, then i do not recommence you watch! this is trailer in case it peak your interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MiirrbcbMU

yes i have watch rumor of war on youtube. that was good drama series and brad davis is good actor.

i think you make good choice not to go in army. if you have no options then army is good place. but if you have better option then do not go in army.

[–] MaximRecoil (4648) 17 days ago

"you will see some nerds claim banana clips were in nam but probably just few GI have them at end of war in '72 - not entire division of 1st of the 9th Cavalry in 1969 nam hahahhahahahaahah"

They are magazines. Clips are used to load magazines. They are just thin metal strips, like this:

https://www.cleanammocans.com/100-pack-ar15-10rd-usgi-stripper-clips.html

In the third picture you can see one being used along with a guide attachment to load a 30-round magazine. Of course, you don't need clips to load AR-15/M16 magazines; they just make it faster to load magazines if you have pre-loaded clips.

And yes, the 30-round "banana" magazines shouldn't be seen in a Vietnam War movie set in 1969 except in very specific circumstances (such as a Navy SEAL or MACV-SOG with a 30-round magazine), as they were rare at that time, as were the M1967 pouches for them. They started to be more widely issued in about 1971.

[–] BourbonKing (5778) 2 years ago

It was the beginning of the Tet Offensive which was pretty much the turning point of the U.S. involvement in Vietnam starting to unravel and lead to eventual disengagement.