The post Walt's death pre Little Mermaid transitional years box set would be a good idea. I don't like many of the transitional year films (Aristocats, Black Cauldron and Great Mouse Detective excepted, along with The Jungle Book, if it counts) but it would be interesting to see what the problems in production were,and how they were marketed. It would also be interesting to see what the deleted scenes would hae done for the films, and why they were deleted.
It wouldn't happen, though. Disney sees those films and their fans as absolute pains in the arse to pay any attention to, and they would burn the deleted scenes of The Black Cauldron if they could. Its not like anyone's been offended by them when hardley anyone has seen them. From what I've heard they would of made the film better, putting more at stake. Don't get me wrong, I like the film anyway, but I like it for it's look, music, and characters. I can acknowledge flaws in the plot.
On another note (pardon the pun) it will be a cold day in hell when we see Sunflower, or the centress's and harpey's breasts again, which is a great shame. Sunflower is an unideal image, but she's better than an implcation that black people don't even exist in Fantasia (were the Zebra centresses edited out too?) She could be used as a starting off point for racism. As for the lady lumps, well, they were put in in the fist place, are very subtle, and could be used as a starting of point for anatomy. Kids are not going to be corrupted by learning about human biology (facepalm) Disney should ignore the the concerned parent groups in The U.S, and show the guts that had them making these films in the first place. Its like painting a dress over Boticelli's Venus.
Sorry to ramble, you've realy sparked a line of thought :)
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Ostrumation
14 years ago
No, I agree completely. Disney should not even listen to those groups. Walt Disney was never afraid to show off something controversial. Fantasia was considered to be a very over-the-top film when it was released, and it got so much criticism, Walt Disney cried at the Academy Awards. The critics thought he went "too far" with Fantasia.
In the mid-90s, Eisner's eyes were on money, and he'd do anything to get a lot, and that meant pleasing paranoid parent groups as a way to avoid controversy. He did several other horrible things that pretty much killed Disney (the DTV sequels, lowbrow comedy in the animated features, pandering to kids), now it's going through a slow resurrection.
Disney needs to cater more to the fans. TRON got a spectacular 2-Disc set back in 2002. I'd like to see that for some other Disney films. For instance, The Fox and the Hound should've had Disney's The Illusions of Life TV special from 1981 on the DVD, but it didn't. Instead you get a silly little game or something.
Same goes for the upcoming DVD of The Black Cauldron. The only new thing we're getting is a better transfer (probably carried over from the French DVD), a deleted scene (a musical number, rather than the fully animated deleted scenes that Katzenberg cut) and a game (Why have games on a DVD when kids can just play video games?). No multiple deleted scenes, no documentaries about the film's long and troubled production history, no early workprint version of the film or anything.
Disney deliberately caters to kids and families, and they alienate fans in the process. The Walt Disney Treasures sets and the Platinum/Diamond Editions are an exception, but Disney should treat all of their films equally, even poor films. This is why stuff like Song of the South, an uncut Fantasia, the WWII propaganda cartoons and the unedited package features will not be released on home video formats.
Oh wow, that post turned into a rant. Sorry...
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PineappleWineapple
14 years ago
Your rant was fine. I rant too. It's so depressing to think that all the pandering to parents and kids is purely because of Eisner, and now Lasseter (great as he is for stopping the straight on the shelves sequels) is afraid to stop it. Concerned parent groups got so used to Eisner licking the dirt off their shoes thatif Lasseter were to reverse all the money wanting crap Eisner did, he'd receive death threats(and that sort of thing happens alot, Linda Blair got death threats over The Exorcist, she was eight) but rather than doing what he wants and paying some good bodyguards, he lets the parent groups win. Even the things modern values have us cringing at, should be released for schoolers along with documentaries on the politically incorrect values of the time which had films being made in such a way.
I can't see how the musical number in The Black Cauldron would be an original scene cut by Katzenberg. It wouldn't go with everything else. Perhaps some singers were payed to do it for the DVD release. That would be like sticking a cat in a C. M. Collidge painting for a new exhibition. A documentary wouldn't be the easiest thing to do (what could John Hurt and Susan Sheridan say about somthing that took them three days, twenty-five years ago?) but it would be possible. It's the lack of Katzenberg cut deleted scenes that bothers me the most. Is Lasseter realy that afraid of of another Shrek 2 style Disney bashing from Katzenberg, over something that happened twenty-five years ago? Does he realy want to let people who would declare the collapse of society over the back of Eilonwy's knee win?
Time to get Disney out of his alleged cyrogenic chamber, then again, he'd be mortified XD
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Ostrumation
14 years ago
I believe the deleted musical number was actually from an much earlier version of The Black Cauldron when it was in pre-production from the early 70s all the way up to 1980, many years before Katzenberg got a hold of the film. It'll probably be some storyboard and a rough audio track.
Katzenberg, as you probably know already, cut about 3-8 minutes of footage (the amount varies, it depends on who you ask). He cut fully completed scenes when the film was screened for the executives towards the end of production. Who knows, maybe the scenes don't exist anymore. Or they could be sitting around.
According to someone at UltimateDisney, when Disney was going to internationally re-release "The Black Cauldron" theatrically, they were considering a recut and they dug up the footage that Katzenberg cut. According to this person, the reel was around 10-20 minutes. Katzenberg apparently trimmed down other scenes as if he were editing a live-action film, a criminal thing to do in animation when everthing is completed.
One day those groups won't mean a thing. Walt Disney never listened to them back in the day, when they complained over the frightening scenes in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs and Pinocchio. The Eisner-era Disney was interested in money and compromised with these groups, alienating their true audiences at the same time.
Oh lord, if Walt Disney saw his company today, he'd have nothing but harsh criticism on the company. I think he'd really like Pixar though.
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PineappleWineapple
14 years ago
I suppose it was far fetched of me to assume the song was newly reated, but it still wouldn't mean much if it was cut before Katzenbeg edited the film. The fully made scenes on the other hand, what an abomination of him. Those scenes could of been left incomplete at any moment, but the animators went through with them. They were the vision.
While it does feel like they don't exist anymore, I'am not sure Disney would risk getting rid of them completely. The film might gain more popularity with age a la Sleping Beauty. I just wish they had the guts to release them now :(
Old Walt would love Pixar, but everything else about the company would make him furious.
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Ostrumation
14 years ago
Unfortunately Katzenberg was very ignorant of animation when he first came to Disney. When he edited the film, he asked for coverage and outtakes (There are NO outtakes or coverage in animation) and the animators stood there thinking, "Are you ***** kidding me?"
He still tried to edit animated films, and he often did so. When a test screening of The Little Mermaid showed that kids got bored during "Part Of Your World", he wanted to cut it. He fought with Glen Keane over the scene, Keane won and the scene stayed in the film. I can't stand Jeffrey Katzenberg, and he did the best he could (with Eisner) to keep Disney in a safe-for-kiddies state. Then he went to DreamWorks and pushed for adult animation. I can't stand him.
Hopefully more cels or clips will be discovered.
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PineappleWineapple
14 years ago
Animation can have bloopers. You can film the voice actors recording their lines and if they mangle their words or crack up laughing, blooper. It's done on the Futurama DVDs. You can also get things like characters eyes flying off, with CGI. That definately was not what Katzenberg meant though. What an idiot.
I heard about the Part of That World thing and he was also an idiot for that. Ariel wouldn't sing without that song!!! It would mean nothing when she sings that beautiful six note tune for Ursula because its based on Part of That World. Everyone would of wondered why Ariel was singing those random notes, why Ursala couldn't just get her voice by putting the shell around her neck. The studio choir sings that song at the very beginning, and the very end, and one of the violins plays it just before Ariel permanently becomes human (I didn't articulate that well, but you can see what I mean if you look up the opening and the ending on Youtube) the audience would wonder what that was about. Thats not even mentioning the dramatic importance of Ariel's singing.
As for Dreamworks How to Train Your Dragon is wonderful but other that that it's complete rubbish. It's all crap movies that just want to sell toys. They're filled with pop culture references (I don't mind one or two but honestly) flat or ill fitting voice acting from people who only get the roles because they're A listers (I don't think voice actng should be limited to specialist voice actors, but if anyone without a picture on their Wikipedia page did voice acting like that they would be sacked) and crude potty humour (theres nothing wrong with a character being seen on the toilet or at a urinal once in a while, but here its just stupid and lazy)Chicken Run was great and Wallice & Gromit : The Curse of The Were Rabbit was good, but they barely count as Dreamworks. Good on Ardaman for regainig their independence despite the fire they suffered in 2005.
Sorry about the waffle on (very little of which was relevent to The Black Cauldron) Conversations go in strange directions.
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Ostrumation
14 years ago
Hehe, it happens.
We all want a great 25th Anniversary Edition of The Black Cauldron, but Disney won't do it. Sad truth.
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