MovieChat Forums > Trading Places (1983) Discussion > Why is 'black face' bad?

Why is 'black face' bad?


I wrote it as 'black face' to illustrate a point.

Before anyone starts foaming at the mouth, I know full-well what I am asking, but I haven't found a TRUE answer yet, only a lot of racist (supposedly anti-racist) ranting and raving and 'how dare you'-stuff á la Greta Thunderbjörgen.

I think everyone should dare.

Why?

To me, nothing is as precious and valuable as freedom, except maybe equality, which is paramount.

We live in a world, where practical reality is about as inequal as possible, and yet people talk about equality. In this world, people talk a lot about freedom and bravery, but in reality, wage slavery is seen as the norm, and no one thinks it goes against freedom.

So when it comes to logic, racism, what people can and can't do (and I think everyone should be able to do everything and anything, as long as they don't hurt anyone or the world, nature, animals, etc., as long as they don't trample upon someone else's rights, etc., and as long as it's lawful (don't bring 'legal system' into this, though, it's a different thing altogether).

The ancient japanese used to, and still somewhat do, paint women's faces with white paint. This could be called 'white face'.

Logically, if 'black face' is bad and racist, then 'white face' should be equally bad and racist. Ban one, you should ban the other. Why aren't they equal?

I get it, I know - historically, there has been a horrible culture, where white people have used all kinds of methods of insulting, mocking, belittling, opressing and prejudicing against so-called 'minorities' (does it matter how many there are? What if black or asian people were the majority, would be then talking about 'majorities'?).

Some of those methods include dressing up 'like them', but really just taking the worst, most dispicable and annoying stereotype and then painting the whole group as this stereotype. For example, chinese people were depicted as pigtailed laundromat owners with rice hats and big teeth with wonky pigeon english and very slanted eyes.

Of course sometimes this kind of stereotypes do exist in real life - some asian people do have big teeth, their eyes do, generally speaking, have a more 'squinted' look even according to cameras ("Did someone blink?", a camera can ask), and that kind of hats have been historically worn and can be practical in many asian environments.

To me, this kind of stereotyped mocking, as bad as it is, is not the worst thing about it, though - I think the actually bad part of it is that these entertainers, movies, whatever it may be, OMIT the less stereotypical asians. So the crime here is not that someone did 'asian face', but it's more that they didn't do the 'regular face', and they used this stereotype to mock all asians, basically claiming they all are this stereotype.

In the end, 'black face' is just a TOOL to mock and insult - and it definitely WAS used to mock and insult, I do not condone that behaviour. However, instead of banning it and getting angry, as long as it doesn't really hurt anyone, the better way to deal with it might be doing the same.

Which world is better, one where everyone is free to mock anyone and anything in any (non-violent, lawful) way possible, or a world, where certain groups have more freedoms than others?

We always say racism is bad because you shouldn't judge someone based solely on their biological body. But isn't that what 'anti-racism' is doing, by banning words and behaviours, even their own body's decoration options based SOLELY ON YOUR BIOLOGICAL BODY?

If we are ever to realize that people are the same kind of souls, just in different kind of bodies, maybe we can stop obsessing about the physical body and stop identifying with it so much. Then we can freely mock the bodies of anyone, because after all, a black body isn't the soul that's living in that body.

I'd rather have black people mock white people by doing 'white face', than banning white people from mocking black people by doing 'black face'.

There's of course the whole 'slavery' aspect that ruins this kind of logical thinking, but then, white slavery is completely forgotten by history. Black slave owners? Forgotten. Arab slave owners that had white and black slaves? Forgotten. And so on.

What happened in history should be remembered, but we should look forward to the future of a better world, not be stuck to the past and hate each other and ban things based on it. Modern people have nothing to do with slavemasters of history, why should modern people suffer for their sins?

Germany is absolute worst, when it comes to this kind of stuff, you can't probably even say the N-word of their culture - 'Nazí', without getting in trouble. I wonder if you can wear or use Manji (the buddhist symbol that's mirror image of the swastika) there at all.

The swastika is not a bad symbol. Yes, I said it. Just because a group of megalomanic morons wore a symbol, doesn't mean the symbol itself is bad.

reply

My point is, that when you see the 'black face' in this movie, you might not know what to feel or think about it. In one hand, it's innocent, it's not used to mock anyone. On other hand, you are SUPPOSED to be 'outraged', because 'how dare they'.

If you think logically, there's nothing wrong with it. You can paint your shoes any color you want, no one brings a moral outrage. You can paint your fingernails back - no backlash. I am sure you can even paint your shoulders any color you wish.

However, when it comes to face, suddenly all hell breaks loose. Why is face such an implication, why not some other body part?

Does everything have to be always, FOREVER, judged by 'historical context', because some idiot did something stupid and insulting back in the day, so now you can't do the same because people will remember that idiot in the past that you have nothing to do with?

I mean, anything can be used to insult. In my opinion, logically thinking, 'black face' itself is a neutral thing, you CAN use it to mock and insult (as was done in history), but you can also use it completely innocently, or even to praise. It doesn't have to always be a mark of racism or racist.

Are people so afraid, they have to ban tools? Why not ban water, because you can use it to drown somoene in it? Why not ban roads, because .. well, you get the idea.

What happened to individual responsibility? If someone uses 'black face' to insult and to be racist, then that individual should face the consequences, not the neutral tool that individual uses.

If you sit a four year-old kid to watch this movie, and they see the 'black face', and they have not been taught anything about that kind of stuff, will they automatically think it's bad and racist? No, they will probably laugh at the funny man, whose face is black. How about all those jokes about falling to some coal chute and having your whole body be black? What about 101 Dalmatians, the cartoon, where puppies are 'disguising' themselves?

reply

What I am saying is, we all have the right to do whatever we want with our physical body, and a 'black face' belongs within those rights - it is also NOT inherently racist.

Eddie Murhphy has done 'white face', no one cares. What kind of equality is it, that everyone minds Dan painting his face - well, it wasn't really even black, more like brown or something..?

If we remove the 'historical context' and think logically, WHY would it be ethically wrong, why would it be bad, why would it be automatically racist to put some kind of paint ANYWHERE on your body, including the face?

This is the problem with these 'racist' accusations, when you dig through them with logic and from the perspective of freedom for ALL, not just some groups, they fall apart, because without the historical context, where someone can accuse YOU of being a racist slavemaster and a whip-crácker, there's REALLY no case.

Dan is not mocking the black people in this movie, he's not trying to make anyone feel bad. It's just a bit of silliness.

We live in a DARK world indeed, if we can't allow a bit of silliness - you know, in a COMEDY movie..

What about other colors? Are black people with relatively light skin hue allowed to paint their faces black? What about asian people doing a 'white face', as Japanese have historically done?

None of it makes any sense, unless we all start understanding the value of freedom and equality. We should ALL be able to say ANY words we damn well please, we should ALL be allowed to wear any mask or paint our faces in any shape or figure or color possible, and if someone mocks someone or ACTUALLY BEHAVES RACISTICALLY, then _THAT_INDIVIDUAL_ALONE_ should face the consequences, not the WHOLE BIOLOGY that the individual might be using at that moment.

I won't even talk about the racistic black people that hate white people - for some reason, that is allowed, accepted and the norm.

I think even xenophobia is understandable to a degree.

reply

We live in a world, where we are not allowed to FEEL perfectly natural human emotions, feelings and experiences. We are quiet about our true thoughts or our true fears, and we try to conform to an insane norm.

The people of this world know at least some kind of mild racism exists pretty much everywhere, but they're not allowed to talk about it. Sexism also only matters when it's against a certain gender, but not when it's SYSTEMATIC AND BLATANTLY PAINFUL against the other.

You can go to any asian village and find at least some kind of racism there. But we can't talk about it as something natural and normal to the human condition. When you don't know something, when you face the unknown, something that doesn't conform to the norms you are spanked into you, it's only natural to feel some kind of fear, resentment or hostility, even if you have to keep it bottled up inside of you.

Think about some foreigners in a Japanese train. The japanese are used to trains being very quiet, people are basically not supposed to even talk on phone, even if it's in a quiet voice. It's a ridiculously strict and rigid cultural norm that the japanese will get angry about, if broken. It's another 'how dare you' situation, in other words.

Now, foreigners might not know or understand the severity of their crime, just happily chatting away loudly, possibly a bit drunk, having fun with their friends, talking on phones, laughing very loud and all that.

Now, I ask you; what should a japanese salaryman or a housewife feel, when they sit near this crowd, in this culture that expects everyone to be 100% quiet (and odorless) in the train? Is it racist if he/she feels angry about the situation? Is it racist if he/she starts hating and fearing foreigners based on this incident?

We should be more understanding and less judgmental to fellow human beings. What we call 'racist', might just be someone that had a rough day and couldn't take it anymore, because they've kept it bottled inside.

reply

Of course I have to end with a stupid DISCLAIMER; I don't condone or support actual racism, I think ACTUAL racists should face consequences of their unfair actions and judgments.

However, I think people are TOO EAGER to call each other racists for the smallest of 'crimes'. People are too sensitive and label something 'racist' way too easily. People have a disproportionately enormous reaction to a very mild forms of racism, which might not even be serious (I mean, just jokes).

Then there are provocateurs, which people call 'trolls', although they should be called at least 'trollers', that enjoy stirring the pot. They might not even think any racist thoughts, but they say the most crude, racistic insults out loud JUST to get reactions.

There are variations of this, that just simply want to be free to joke about anything and everything, but would never want to cause any harm to anyone based on their biological body (or otherwise).

When we are shocked about 'black face', we should also think about freedom, equality, and backlash-reactions gone too far - the historical idiots mocking black people that way SHOULD get some kind of consequences, but _JUST_ paint on skin should not make anyone angry. It's just paint, it doesn't necessarily mean ANYTHING.

I am tired of people being so robotic about this; 'black face' somehow (how?) automatically means racism, but 'white face' doesn't. Logic? Because some people used that tool to mock a group of people, so the tool itself should be banned. The same logic dictates kitchen knives should be banned, because someone has murdered someone else using that tool. Roads should be banned, because drug smugglers have used them. So 'black face' has to be banned, because idiots have used that tool to be racist.

Logically thinking, WHY is 'black face' bad besides that historical connotation? Can anyone name HOW a 'black individual' will become oppressed, injured and fired from their job if someone in a movie shows a painted face?

reply

Wow, somebody had a lot of time on his hands.

Blackface usually isn't bad. It is rarely meant to demean black people.

reply

I'm taking a quote from your second post, third line:

"If you think logically, "

So,

If --> you think logically --> then --> you arrive at result 1.
If --> you do not think logically -- > then --> you arrive at result 2.

Your question, in other words is, "Why do people who do not think logically, arrive at the results of not thinking logically?"

The answer is, "they just do."

reply

Damn, talk about TL;DR!

reply


IKR?

When I saw who the OP was, I didn't bother. I scrolled down to see the comments.

reply

Is this wholly about Dan Aykroyd's character putting on a DISGUISE to pose as a Jamaican, so he could try to trick the bad guy into believing he and Eddie Murphy's character were fellow Jamaican countrymen?

I don't see why it should be so offensive. It probably didn't offend people back then, but if it does now, THEY'VE got the problem.

You'll be saying next that the following scene, where the bad guy is placed in a gorilla suit and subsequently raped by a real gorilla... is offensive to gorillas?

reply

Imagine if Beeks had been black and they put him in that gorilla suit. Oh, the outrage.

reply

You'll be saying next that the following scene, where the bad guy is placed in a gorilla suit and subsequently raped by a real gorilla... is offensive to gorillas?

Yeah, the movie makers are saying that all male gorillas are rapists. Let's ban this movie.

reply

You're white, right?

reply

I don't know what your point is (you never make sense anyway), but blackface was historically used in a demeaning way going back to the beginning of Hollywood and Vaudeville, either to use a white person to portray a black person when a black person wouldn't do such a role or to simply poke fun at black people.

Blackface in this film was not used to demean anyone, but as a plot device for laughs, such as when Eddie Murphy (and others) did whiteface.

No one thought twice about it in Trading Places back then because it wasn't demeaning or insulting, but today there are the humorless sorts who see no humor in this or race baiters who use such things to advance an agenda that won't stand up to real scrutiny and needs a smokescreen.

reply

YOU ARE A MORON...WE BOTH KNOW YOU ARE LONELY AND ANGRY...GUESS WHAT,PAL?...THAT WON'T CHANGE UNTIL YOU DO. NOEMOJI

reply