Very hard to take seriously

I love TWOW and W & R. I have them on DVD and watch them about once a year. But you make some valid points. It does seem like a conceit that Victor "Pug" Henry would play so many roles in the war. I mean, at one point he is sent to Russia because he learned a few words of Russin as a boy (there were Russians in his California neighborhood) and we see him giving an eloquent toast to Stalin in Russian, and in that toast making certain requests to Stalin? I don't think so. Russian is an incredibly hard language for an English speaker to learn. And Rhoda talking to Hitler in German (beyond standard pleasantries)? I don't think so. But I forgive TWOW for this. It is a conceit to allow us to see different aspects, different theaters, different roles, of the war.

I wrote in another post on the W & R board that Natalie's and Aaron's fate just didn't seem believable, and you hit on one of the reasons. But dramatically, it was incredibly powerful, because we have over the course of two mini-series become so very attached to these characters, and to see what happens to them is the most chilling and gut-wrenching depiction of the holocaust I have ever seen.

Remember that this was network television, not cable, not the movies. TWOW and W & R was a landmark achievement, IMHO. I love 'em.



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You are missing the point on Pug. They story is not Pug it is the history. Pug, as a "small player" and "observer" to history, was Herman Wouk's conduit to the larger story. Remember, these were books long before they were a made for TV mini-series.

I fully agree with OP on most points.

The factual errors don't really bother me, God knows all main characters are 100% fictional here so it's not hard to forgive an occasional conflict with actual history.

The Henry men are uncredible and irritating John Waynes. There's this very strong *beep* irritating Tom Clancy-vibe on Victor Henry. Like Atik10 says, he knows all and everything. On top of every situation, bombing Berlin, dining with Roosevelt, he gets to see it all. I'm surprised he didnt't invent radar for England.
In 6 episodes and course of 2 years, he goes through the career high points of atleast 4 different veteran diplomat/Navy Officers. It gets very boring very fast.

It does make sense that original author of the books is using him as observer and narrator of sorts for viewers pleasure.
I just hate this approach. It adds particular flavor of uncredibility that is hard to tolerate in vast amounts.
It's easy to compare Victor to the Action packed lead characters of other mini series with high production values, Rome.
Just like Victor, Lucius and Titus stumble their way through history, ending up in the middle of far too many defining moments of history, interacting with every single person who mattered back then. Hated it in Rome, hate it here. It's very cheap, obvious and, once again, uncredible way to get the desired amount of coherrency to your narrative.


Characters in general are pretty unlikeable.
It is odd how I found dialogue extremely functional here, characters do sound more natural than in most war flicks/series. There's strong taste of real life radiating from that direction. Characters, their decisions and fact most of them are irritating twats does ruin a lot of it.

Victor is not entirely unlikeable. The bastard is stone cold:D Not a single smile or laughter during the entire series I think. The actor delivered it well.
Thres fair amount of unintentionally comical scenes thanks to it!
Hot 20 yeard old blonde who ofcourse is armless in the face of Victors massive sexual charisma: " I love you"
Victor: "We should go inside"

I wouldn't call this a bad miniseries but 8.5 stars in IMDB? come on. Not with these characters. No way.So many things just dont work here.

Boy,that Natalie and Aaron were DETERMINED to meet Eichmann,eh?

I picked up the DVD's at a thrift store a couple years ago. Finally getting around to watching it, (I did see it when first broadcast.) The above points are valid, but can be overlooked in the name of artistic license, better a flawed history lesson that more or less gets the facts straight, than nothing at all. Most private conversations in any such series would be mostly conjecture anyway.

What gets me is the ACTING, damn it's bad! I can't believe how Houseman is a parody of himself in this, there are scenes where you wonder if he won't draw his last breath before finishing his line. That Ally MacGraw, she's just irritating to the extreme, can't call it overacting, because she's not really acting, watching this leads me to believe she just reads lines in her normal voice, she's the SAME in every project she's ever done. At least in "Love Story" you knew her "character" would be off screen before the end. Günter Meisner's HItler is what was said in previous posts, but worse. This portrayal belongs in a Mel Brooks movie or an old Soviet propaganda film. Polly Bergen, I don't know, either she was acting VERY well, making us look at her through Pugs eyes (trapped with this creature chained to our leg) or she wasn't acting and she really is that irritating. No wonder Pug wanted a Battleship commission, I think he's volunteer for suicide missions to get away from his dunce wife.

But, I've gotten a couple hours into it now, and curiosity will probably get the better of me and I will watch it until the end. Robert Mitchum is the one saving grace in this actors suck fest (so far anyway.)

There are good performers besides Mitchum of course, but they're too few and far between.

"Victor Henry: the president's right hand, master in tennis, chess, russian language, expert on all things navy & a counter intelligence genius. Also very hot property among young women.. Did I forget something?"

One thing you forgot to mention: A man who learns of his wife's adultery, yet isn't the least bit upset with her about it and even helps her save her romance with that colonel (this actually happens in "War and Rememberence"). Even if I could understand Pug not being angry with Rhoda (realizing that his many months away from her as a top brass Navy man ultimately drove her into the arms of another man), he certainly would not try to patch up things between her and the man that she was seeing behind his back! Pug is way too nice.

"Natalie Jastrow: throwing herself constantly in the harms way. Poland under the threat of Nazi invasion? Sounds like a hoot and a great place to visit in 1939. The character which was supposed to be in her late 30s acted like a 12 year old most of the time."

LOL!!! You said it! This woman is positively insane! She's Jewish; she knows what the Nazis are capable of; and yet, refusing to be discouraged, she travels right into the lion's den, to a place where the Nazis are slaughtering Jews by the hundreds of thousands. Even if she was naive enough to believe that her American citizenship would keep her safe, it's a Goddamn war zone for Pete's sake!

"Byron Henry: lol, he was supposed to be about 25, right? Great move sign Jan Michael Vincent (39 at the time) to play him. Very bad actor by the way."

I totally agree. The man is referred to quite frequently as young and immature (by Pug, by Natalie, etc), yet he's got crow's feet and maturing lines on his face! He looks older than Natalie, not younger. I like the actor who took over the role in "War and Rememberence" much better.

"Adolf Hitler: of all the sliver screen Hitlers, Meissner's version would belong in the top 3 list of over the top parody performances. Unfortunately Steven Berkoff's "Adi" was even worse in the follow up series "War and Remembrance"."

Oh, I don't know. I thought Berkoff's performance was on the money. Don't forget: in "Winds of War" Hitler was calmer because his forces were invading and conquering without much resistance. But in "War and Rememberence," when he sees his empire crumbling at the hands of Allies and the Russians, and he realizes he's doomed, his psychotic hysteria becomes more visible, more animated. I think both actors played him well.

"Also, it was very hard to watch this show, with all the obviously post war (1960s to 1980s) equipment, hairstyles and occasionally even clothing (see for example the Siena "Palio" horse race scenes)."

LOL! True.

"+ the countless factual errors, for example: How in hell did a mid ranking navy officer know anything about atomic bombs in 1941, or how did the holocaust make the radio report in the same year, when it had barely started and would be massive news only 4 years later?"

True...

"I'll let these and the countless other historic blunders slip by, since the TWOW is really nothing more then a soap opera set to ww2 and shouldn't be taken that seriously anyway.."

You make some valid points, but I still loved it and its sequel. No movie is perfect.

With Dan Curtis in charge, I keep thinking we're going to see Barnabas Collins somewhere, but that wouldn't keep with the Dark Shadow continuity b/c he was still locked in that coffin, and Willie Loomis didn't release him until the late 1960's...but perhaps Victoria Winters could have taken another "time travel" trip? ;)
...Also I can't seem to find that top-secret helicopter Pug's son is supposed to fly, and Natalie Jastrow doesn't call him "Preppie" like she's supposed to.

In Episode 3, is "Goering" supposed to be pronounced "Gehring" or "Goohring" rather than "Goring"?