MovieChat Forums > White Dog (1982) Discussion > censored due to suckiness

censored due to suckiness


I finally saw White Dog for the first time last night (Criterion Collection), after a long and anxious wait. I am a big fan of Sam Fuller, and love the Big Red One. But this movie sucks. The acting sucks (Paul Winfield is OK). There are awkward plot devices (how do we make the woman attached to the dog? Well, we can have the dog save her from something really terrible, right after the dog is adopted...yeah, that's the ticket), and the whole thing skates the line between exploitation and gritty treatment of a societal flaw rather awfully. It is obvious that Sam was too old to make contemporary pictures at this point. There is a telephone switchboard operator in one scene (in 1982???)!

According to the extras, they did try to distribute the film, but audiences hated it. I suggest this was not because it was in your face and controversial, but because it sucked.

So, a myth developed that it was pulled from the shelves because it was a terrific film that challenged authority. Please.

It sucks.

It should be remade, because the premise is terrific, and could be done better by anyone.

Curtis Hanson should try it.

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There is a telephone switchboard operator in one scene (in 1982???)!

It still functioned in some places back then and even today.

(how do we make the woman attached to the dog? Well, we can have the dog save her from something really terrible, right after the dog is adopted...yeah, that's the ticket),

The point is that she's attached to the pooch right from the start. The attack by that rapist serves to make the film's perspective on animal conditioning a little more complex. In the scene when the rapist enters the house, the dog instinctively attacks that pervert out of a sense of protection and affection for that girl which is what a guard dog is supposed to do.

According to the extras, they did try to distribute the film, but audiences hated it.

The film never got any distribution. It was SHELVED. It appeared on Cable TV in America and only had an official American release in the 90's where it played in very few theatres for a hideously short time. It was orphaned by the studios and never given a due release.

I suggest this was not because it was in your face and controversial, but because it sucked.

And I suggest you suck.

So, a myth developed that it was pulled from the shelves because it was a terrific film that challenged authority. Please.

A myth did develop but not because it challenged authority...Rather the authority were amazed that instead of a exploitation gratuitious film it had commissioned they had an avant-guarde thriller drama that fit no genre and didn't know how to sell it so they used the protests as an excuse. Gutless swines.

It should be remade, because the premise is terrific, and could be done better by anyone.

The fact that the producer Jon Davison and screenwriter Curtis Hanson wanted to get out of the project but only accepted to stay on when Fuller got on aboard and jumped at his suggestion at re-writing the script shows that it could not be done by anyone else.




"Ça va by me, madame...Ça va by me!" - The Red Shoes

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Right on, artihcus022! I didn't think the movie was a masterpiece, I thought some opportunities were missed, but the complexities of the plot has obviously gone over so many heads, particularly that of the original poster. And the excruciating use of the lazy term 'sucks' shows that he's a juvenile who should stick to movies where the term is readily used.

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I suggest this was not because it was in your face and controversial, but because it sucked.

And I suggest you suck.

And I suggest YOU suck.

Hey, this is fun. Does anybody want to suggest I suck?

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"There is a telephone switchboard operator in one scene (in 1982???)!"

"It still functioned in some places back then and even today."

All telephone switchboard operators were eliminated in the U.S. during the 1970's. Since you'll so freely post falsehoods about that, your credibility for the other comments is zero with me.

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"he whole thing skates the line between exploitation and gritty treatment of a societal flaw"

This is true of just about all of Fuller's work.

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It's great when someone takes the time to repost every dopey comment that the other guy made, do you two know each other?I'm impressed.

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I actually meant that as a compliment. I love Fuller's stuff.

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Some of the plotting is clunky, I agree. But the film's core deals with the dog's psychology, and that held me. The dog is presented as a complex character, one who's conditioning came as the result of abuse. At a certain point in the film, the dog becomes the central focus, almost a tragic figure. Our feelings for the dog are never at ease. The film's racial conundrum, cinematically conveyed through the dog's presence and actions, is presented as a process of conditioning. Since the dog has been taught to act this way, racial prejudice is dramatized as an idea. (That in itself is a pretty interesting notion.) We can love the dog but hate what he does. Consequently, I think Fuller achieved much of the intellectual complexity that his narrative attempts.


SPOILER BELOW ********

Dogs want to please humans, and are happy when they learn just what their human masters expect of them. Through conditioning and habit, a dog finds comfort and security in a consistent and loving regiment. But when a dog is abused as a puppy, it carries the scars of that abuse for the rest of its life. And when violence is part of the abuse, the fear it creates in the dog can, indeed, lead to aggressive behavior. To me, most of WHITE DOG chronicles this sad and horrific fact. The dog will do monstrous things, but is not a monster. He's only doing what a human being has taught or somehow conditioned him to do. His life, then, is one of fear and confusion. Usually, when a dog is aggressive or violent, he's acting out of fear. This film vividly dramatizes the dog's state of confusion, and that's what I find terrifically brilliant about the movie. When the dog is shot at the end, Fuller keeps the camera on him. His death is the ultimate tragedy of the film. This beautiful animal has been turned into a monster; he ends dead, alone in the dirt. Those two final shots of the dog, from the ground and from above, chillingly sums up the character's wasted life.

So I don't think the movie sucks, as you put it. I don't think it's a masterpiece, either. But I do think you miss what's unique and potent in Fuller's treatment, and I think the dog's story is something you haven't even considered.

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axehole. I was diggin your take on the movie until you spoiled the ending for me.

"I'm going nowhere fast... and you're not coming." -LP

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My subject line says "spoiler." Am sorry you didn't see it.

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Thanks for apologizing. See where it says "markup enabled?" That will take you to a list of characters that can alter your text. Spoiler text can be unseen 'lest the cursor is pointed at the aforementioned text. It works better, and No, I did not see "spolier" in your title, with the replies being flatted out.
I'm sure, I'll still enjoy the movie.
http://www.imdb.com/help/boards/markup

"I'm going nowhere fast... and you're not coming." -LP

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When the dog is shot at the end, Fuller keeps the camera on him. His death is the ultimate tragedy of the film. This beautiful animal has been turned into a monster; he ends dead, alone in the dirt. Those two final shots of the dog, from the ground and from above, chillingly sums up the character's wasted life.

So I don't think the movie sucks, as you put it. I don't think it's a masterpiece, either. But I do think you miss what's unique and potent in Fuller's treatment, and I think the dog's story is something you haven't even considered.


My thoughts exactly !

Who are they? And what do they want?

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Thanks, my friend. ;).
Always enjoy your critique.

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Fuller's work is generally amazing. "The Big Red One", "The Steel Helmet" and "The Baron of Arizona" especially.

THIS WAS NOT GOOD. IT WAS CRAP.

This was a piece of crap that looked like it was directed by a hack. Here's a fun game, count the amount of times there are useless zooms, self referential Hollywood scenes or ludicrously convenient plot points and see how long it takes to get to a hundred. You'll probably get there before the 20 minute mark. When you do, turn off the movie and know I just saved you 70 minutes of your life.

To be clear and save time, I'll just give some reasons as to why this movie sucked in a convenient list:
1. Repetitive zooms for NO REASON
2. Horrible Acting
3. Crap script
4. WAY to convenient plot points and scenes ("It's dangerous living alone, at least keep the dog" and the same night she almost gets raped. Really?)
5. The excessive amounts of murders that were covered up by a moronic dog trainer so that he could save a dog.
6. The symbolism bashed you over the head to the point where it was laughable and slowed down the pace of an already crap movie.

Awful.

Please trash my opinion now, as I am but a lowly film student in need of an education as to why this film got a Criterion and something like "Last Year at Marienbad" or "Badlands" has not.

Better to be the MotherF#!$%R than the MotherF#!$%ED.

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OP,

If you were looking for an intense 80's slasher film, of course you're going to walk away from it feeling unfulfilled. However, if you appreciate films that revolve around an idea with a sense of art, you might actually find something special in "White Dog".

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If you were looking for an intense 80's slasher film, of course you're going to walk away from it feeling unfulfilled. However, if you appreciate films that revolve around an idea with a sense of art, you might actually find something special in "White Dog".


Sense of art?? This movie had the production values of an after-school special

Or maybe not, lol.. http://www.amazon.com/Life-Times-Dr-Bong-ebook/dp/B005T63494

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Somebody should try to adapt Romain Gary's novel into a movie or miniseries.

The film itself will never be remade, and shouldn't be.

Honestly, I have my problems with it, but it's a good movie, an interesting little piece of film history. I hope no Sam Fuller movie ever gets remade. They should remain his personal expressions.

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It had some flaws, but I was really impressed. I had taped it years ago after seeing the Fuller documentary with Tim Robbins and gave it about five minutes for dismissing as some dated kristy mcnichol crap. I was totally wrong and I'm glad this is finally out on DVD. 8/10

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That being said, it does suck that Kristy McNichol is in it. It's partly the way her character was written, but I just found her annoying. No such character exists in the novel. If the Paul Winfield character is the hero, why not just start with somebody bringing him the dog, and really focus on that?

I found myself wincing a lot when she was onscreen. I like some of her performances, but this just did not work.

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SPOILER!!!

I'm with OP. Way over-rated--the emperor's new dog sweater.

Won't even address fidelity to book/novella, which I never read, but as a movie with a backstory as allegedly as controversial as this one, pretty underwhelming.

Almost looks like a big-screen TV movie in terms of its implausible storyline and McNichol's one-note After School Special-type performance: Young actress finds dog, reluctantly keeps it when boyfriend says she needs it for protection. . .and, lo and behold, is saved by the dog just hours/days later when a would-be rapist breaks into her house--except the dog *almost* doesn't hear the intruder because TV is blaring full-blast in next room--a Sam Fuller movie, no less!--even though heroine has apparently gone to bed for evening. Huh? (At this point, any episode of Lassie is looking pretty good in terms of logic and believability.) Occasional flashes of what could have been done with the material are evident, but too often film is derailed by ridiculous long-arm-of-coincidence plotting that audiences may have accepted in Fuller's films of the Fifties but just seemed silly by the Eighties.

Don't ask how an apparently largely unemployed actress can afford to rent a spacious home in the Hollywood hills, or why a bit actress would be allowed to bring her dog to the set (except to advance the plot, when a fellow actress is mauled), or why animal control officers don't simply put the dog down when they do have him in custody or why McNichol's character doesn't immediately seem to grasp the problem of keeping a dog that repeatedly comes home covered with blood, or why a seasoned animal trainer (Burl Ives) would assume the dog was "cured" simply because he quit barking at a black man on one occasion, or why. . .

Oh, yes--further realism in form of director Sam Fuller himself, making jarring cameo as McNichol's agent, surrounded by photos of himself with legendary performers in his filmmaking prime.

Despite all the nattering about Paramount's decision to shelf the film on grounds of racist controversy (if ever a film was anti-racist, this is it), looks suspiciously like studio decided to cut their losses with a film they had no idea how to market and simply put this dog to sleep.

An interesting, but sadly oversold, curious ending to Fuller's unique Hollywood career.

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ok so Jameson Parker played Kristys boyfriend. Now he is signicatly older than her so did it play off? or was it ridiculous? it must not have been that big a role , jameson has main crediot with the rest but i fouind hard to find a mention of what he does in this movie. he must do more than tell her to get rid of th dog? lol

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It's funny. I can't really find any real fault with your post. I agree that there are several illogical moments/circumstances (I also wondered how she could afford to live alone in such a beautiful house in the hills). Yet, I really enjoyed the movie. Maybe it's because despite all of its technical flaws, White Dog still succeeds in being a strong metaphor for racism in America. And that was really what Fuller was trying to do.

McNichol was a terrible actress, though...

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I wondered how the dog could get loose, kill a man in a church, and yet somehow Winfield et al get another chance to reform it with no apparent community outcry to find the offending animal and destroy it as would and should be done in real life. And there is little if any consideration of the consequences of shielding a proven killer animal. There was no question that they knew it was their white dog that did it. The mission to redeem the white dog comes ahead of the fact of a dead victim (even a severely mauled victim would be bad enough) and the unlimited potential for more. At least McNichol does come around from a save the poor dog attitude to a realistic we had better destroy it attitude after cleaning her fill of human blood from its coat. This is a very large loose end in the script required to get to the intended ending. That intended ending has some problems as well. Apparently, the idea is that the dog decides to turn on its racist master that it incorrectly identifies as Burl Ives who resembles the actor portraying the dog's actual owner, as if it were switching sides, or realizing how it had been used, or taking revenge for being trained for racist purposes, or in some other way demonstrating a level of intellectual abstraction for a dog that strains credibility. Of course, aggressive dogs go off in unexpected ways and times frequently without any moral to the story thus the ending is not impossible by any means once stripped of any moral or ethical meaning that can only be an invention of the writer or the audience. I still appreciate that Fuller does not permit a Hollywood ending and the far worse drama and realism problems that would entail and that this movie is a good example of Fuller's style, values and skill (and limitations).

Flaws and all, there is nothing here so inflammatory, controversial or extreme for its time that it could not have been released in 1980. I have no argument with anyone that thinks it would met a dismal fate at the box office and that this would be no surprise for whatever reasons.

Oh, and it does not suck.

CB

Good Times, Noodle Salad

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I wondered how the dog could get loose, kill a man in a church, and yet somehow Winfield et al get another chance to reform it with no apparent community outcry to find the offending animal and destroy it as would and should be done in real life.


It's a movie. And FYI, that doesn't happen in the book. I know I mention the book a lot here, but having seen the movie (in a theater) and then read the book, I cannot seem to stop bringing up how much better the book is. The dog this story is based on never killed anybody. He got away from Romain Gary at one point, approached a stroller holding a black baby--and licked the kid's face. He was not a savage vicious killer, or a racist. He was just a dog who had been trained to do a job by some racist southern cops.

And there is little if any consideration of the consequences of shielding a proven killer animal. There was no question that they knew it was their white dog that did it. The mission to redeem the white dog comes ahead of the fact of a dead victim (even a severely mauled victim would be bad enough) and the unlimited potential for more.


Fuller obviously felt the book was too intellectual and talky, and didn't have enough action. He was going for sensationalism, and the dog had to really hurt somebody. The dog had to be this monster, this raging foamy-mouthed demon, who can get out of any enclosure, and wreak his brutality on the world. He had to be scary. That's how Fuller thought he could sell the movie. Fuller was all about immediate visceral sensations, in a word--emotion--he said so. In some French guy's movie.

At least McNichol does come around from a save the poor dog attitude to a realistic we had better destroy it attitude after cleaning her fill of human blood from its coat.


Yeah, but that just makes me despise her character (who is mainly just annoying)--the dog saved her from a rapist. She owes him. She could just give him to somebody in Idaho or Montana, who lives out in the middle of nowhere. But I guess in this movie, he'd get loose and somehow find the one black person within a thousand square miles.....

This is a very large loose end in the script required to get to the intended ending. That intended ending has some problems as well.


This is a recurring problem with movies adapting books based on real-life events. Which is that real-life events are rarely the best building blocks of popular cinema. And Fuller was always so expressionistic. Not that Gary's book is strictly fact either--he admitted to changing the story, for both artistic and legal reasons. But as a story, it holds together so much better. Fuller and Hanson just don't seem to be able to find a way to spackle the logical holes they create by changing the story around so radically.

Apparently, the idea is that the dog decides to turn on its racist master that it incorrectly identifies as Burl Ives who resembles the actor portraying the dog's actual owner, as if it were switching sides, or realizing how it had been used, or taking revenge for being trained for racist purposes, or in some other way demonstrating a level of intellectual abstraction for a dog that strains credibility.


I'll say this much--dogs do often mistake one person for another at a distance. I see this happen with my dog all the time--we're in the park, he thinks he sees his other person coming, and he loves her very much, so he starts trotting eagerly towards the approaching figure--then he gets close enough to see and smell better, and he hesitates, stops, then comes back--you can see him thinking "Well, I was certainly wrong there!" It can be a man he mistakes for her. They sense movement better than us, they have higher-definition vision than us, but their vision is near-useless for long-range personal identification purposes.

The climax in the book makes a lot more sense, because of who the dog attacks first, and why (and it's not because he's a savage demonic killer). But I don't want to give the ending away, if you haven't read it.

Of course, aggressive dogs go off in unexpected ways and times frequently without any moral to the story thus the ending is not impossible by any means once stripped of any moral or ethical meaning that can only be an invention of the writer or the audience.


You're missing the real problem. The explanation given for the dog starting to attack white people instead makes absolutely no damn sense. It would never happen. If you successfully train a dog to attack a certain type of person, he will attack that kind of person. If you successfully retrain him to stop attacking that type of person, he will stop attacking that type of person. Getting rid of his fear of black people would not make him attack white people. But Fuller and Hanson have a problem--their trainer is supposed to be an utterly admirable person. He's supposed to be a brilliant animal trainer. He's supposed to know what he's doing. He's supposed to be trying to retrain the dog to not attack anybody, ever. And yet there has to be a big violent ending to the movie. And of course the dog has to die. So they have to make something up out of whole cloth. Namely, the bizarre notion that retraining the dog may make him go crazy and do the precise opposite of what he was doing before. And that would never happen. A dog's mind doesn't work that way.

What I don't get is why they didn't have the Strother Martin lookalike who trained the dog to attack black people show up again, trying to get his dog back, and have the dog attack HIM. The audience deserves to see that guy get his throat ripped out, and the dog deserves a chance to take revenge on the man who ruined his life, and basically lied to him. I really think that is the single worst mistake in the film, once you've accepted its dubious premise (which again, works a lot better in the book). I don't think that would happen in real life either (though some dogs are a lot smarter than you think, and particularly Shepherds), but at least it would have the right symbolic resonance.

I still appreciate that Fuller does not permit a Hollywood ending


For an old school guy like Fuller, that IS a Hollywood ending. It didn't use to be that big popular movies couldn't have downer endings. Do you really think Gone with the Wind ends with Rhett leaving Scarlett because they respected the integrity of the novel? No, it ends that way because that's a HOLLYWOOD ENDING. Tragic endings are as Hollywood as you can get. It's how you do them that matters.

I mean, seriously--how many Sam Fuller movies have happy endings? It would actually have been a nice change of pace for him, I kind of think.

No, the ending is wrong. Just wrong. We're left with the message that nothing can ever really change or progress. That getting rid of one kind of hatred just brings out another. It's a senseless immoral ending, really. We went through all that for nothing. And Keys will just find another 'white dog' and start over. It's a visually powerful ending, but there's no sense behind it. And because the man who trained the dog only appears briefly, and is absent from the final scene, and actually never does or says a single racist thing in our presence, we're forced to identify the DOG with human racism. Instead of becoming a victim of racism, he becomes its living embodiment. And he's not racist at all. He's a dog.

In the novel, the dog is really the hero, in a sense. He breaks free from the humans who willfully misled him, and dies on his own terms, in the arms of somebody who cares about him. And inspires a very powerful anti-racist book that reached a lot of people back when it mattered. As Fuller's film never would have.

and the far worse drama and realism problems that would entail and that this movie is a good example of Fuller's style, values and skill.


But it's a far better showcase of his limitations. He is to be admired for having the nerve to take on racism directly, in the 50's and 60's, when it was still controversial. But in the 80's, we're forced to see that Fuller doesn't understand racism--and he doesn't really understand black people, either. That's why when the NAACP people came by, understandably concerned, he treated them like dirt. As if they had no right to be concerned. He could have sat down with them and explained why their fears were groundless, but instead he did the Fulleresque thing and told them to go to hell. Not smart, but he often wasn't.

Flaws and all, there is nothing here so inflammatory, controversial or extreme for its time that it could not have been released in 1980.


True. But it would have flopped no matter what. In a sense, it's better remembered now for having been 'censored'.

Oh, and it does not suck.


It's not a bad movie.

It's not a great one either.

And if you want a dog story that gets at the roots of racism, read Romain Gary's book, and forget the movie.

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You're missing the real problem. The explanation given for the dog starting to attack white people instead makes absolutely no damn sense. It would never happen. If you successfully train a dog to attack a certain type of person, he will attack that kind of person. If you successfully retrain him to stop attacking that type of person, he will stop attacking that type of person. Getting rid of his fear of black people would not make him attack white people.

The film does not suggest that there is some kind of reversal in the dog's racist training. Rather, the dog seems to have become mentally unhinged due to stress and simply attacks everyone in sight (starting with the black guy). Keys warns that this might happen earlier in the film: "Homicidal maniac. Will attack anyone in sight", or something to that effect. I suppose it backs down when it recognises Keys and Julie (as you said yourself, it wouldn't be likely to recognise them from a distance), but goes throug with the attack on Carruthers because it has no particular emotional bond with him. Of course, one may then wonder why this should happen now and why they let out the dog at a moment when it was so obviously agitated, but those are just another few in the long line of questions we may raise about the plot. I don't know if this makes sense in terms of real-world dog psychology, but at least it seems less far fetched than the idea of reversed racism.
No, the ending is wrong. Just wrong. We're left with the message that nothing can ever really change or progress. That getting rid of one kind of hatred just brings out another. It's a senseless immoral ending, really.

Agreed. It defeats the purpose of the entire film. If the NAACP people had anythig to upbraid Fuller about, this would be it.

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The film does not suggest that there is some kind of reversal in the dog's racist training.


Of course it does. The dog now attacks white men. The IMAGE is what matters, particularly in a film like this. But the script is so confused and disjointed that the image doesn't really resonate the way it should. It's a very badly written film with fine cinematography. The acting is mainly pretty bad, except for Winfield, who did far better work elsewhere.

Rather, the dog seems to have become mentally unhinged due to stress and simply attacks everyone in sight (starting with the black guy).


No, that's completely wrong. In the beginning, he only attacked people who were a threat to someone he liked, or black people just for being black. At the end, he's with a young white woman and a black man (who had abused him for weeks) and he's happy and friendly with them. Then he attacks an old white man who had never done anything to him. The implication may be that he's making a connection between this old man and the old man who trained him, but it just doesn't work.

The overall implication--which the script tries to justify in a very strained contrived way--is that the stress of the retraining process is putting him in a mentally vulnerable state where he could snap at any moment, and the idea is that in this state, he suddenly reverses poles and develops a hatred for white men, particularly those who resemble his former trainer. Any dog trainer would laugh this idea to scorn. Dog's don't think or perceive the world like that.

In the novel, the dog starts attacking white people because he was SPECIFICALLY trained to do so by a black man who has been scarred by white racism. In the end, he's just too trusting of his handlers, white or black--he's just trying to do his job, which is a very German Shepherd thing--Gary suggests that when he realized he was mauling somebody he loved on behalf of somebody else he loved, the shock broke his spirit--his 'god' has failed him. That may not be entirely realistic canine psychology either, but at least Gary was writing from his own experiences and perceptions--he wasn't just making **** up.

Keys warns that this might happen earlier in the film: "Homicidal maniac. Will attack anyone in sight", or something to that effect.


But he doesn't. We sees that he doesn't. He's fine with every white person he meets, except a rapist who invades the house of a woman who was nice to him.

Agreed. It defeats the purpose of the entire film. If the NAACP people had anythig to upbraid Fuller about, this would be it.


They never even got to see the film. We only have Fuller's account of what happened there. Without hearing their side of the story, it would be kinda racist to assume anything about what they did or should have upbraided him for. The fact is, Fuller had noble intentions regarding race relations, but a very mixed record. A lot of his anti-racist films are actually pretty damn racist.

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