MovieChat Forums > Ragtime (1981) Discussion > How much is fact + how much fiction?

How much is fact + how much fiction?


I suppose I'm showing my historical ignorance here, but I had assumed till recently that Doctorow's story was entirely fiction. Then I listened to the commentary on the DVD and Forman said something which made it clear that Evelyn Nesbitt Thaw and Harry Thaw were real people. Now I'm wondering which events actually took place, particularly Coalhouse Walker's story. I guess I could find out through Google but is there anyone here with knowledge of the era who might like to shed some light? Much obliged.


"Tell you what . . . the truth is . . . sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." --Jack Twist

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The only part of the movie that is totally based in fact is that Evelyn Nesbit was married to coal/railroad baron Harry K. Thaw of Pittsburg, PA. Thaw was an insanely jealous, violent man and sexual masochist. Ms Nesbit was a known consort/chorus girl of socialite architect Stanford White (designer of the first 2 Madison Square gardens), and his mistress before her marriage under duress to Thaw. Harry Thaw in a jealous rage, killed White on the rooftop garden of the SECOND Madison Square Garden located at 26th and Madison (not the current one at Penn Station), in cold blood with three gunshot wounds to the face. He was later put on trial, where it was contrived to make him appear insane so he would not be electrocuted and was "imprisoned" in the Matteawan State Hospital for the Criminally Insane. This took place in 1906. Thaw died in 1947, Nesbit died in 1967. Stanford White died on June 25, 1906.

Another small section of the movie is somewhat factual. Rhinelander Waldo was police commissioner during the time period May 1911 to December 1913. He was in his early 30's when he was Police Commissioner. He would NOT have been introduced to Thaw at White's party as Police Commissioner, becasue at that time he would have a member of the NY Fire Department, having been promoted to NY Fire Department Commissioner in 1910. Waldo died in 1927.

J. P. Morgan did own a large library and art collection within the City of New York. His art collection was valued at over 50 million dollars. His library was never robbed or seiged. In fact, he wasn't even in the country when he died in 1913.

The book "Ragtime" takes place from about 1902 to 1917, however, the movie makes you think that all these events take place at the same time when they really do not, nor are they related to one another.

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Thanks, wvanderburg! I knew there had to be someone out there with detailed knowledge of that period of history. This film has such atmosphere and charisma that it makes me want to learn more myself. (If I can ever find time. ) I think its genius is that it makes me feel a kind of nostalgia for a time long before I was born.


"Tell you what . . . the truth is . . . sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." --Jack Twist

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There are two other updates you need for your understanding of the movie.

First, the Coalhouse Walker story in the novel owes a lot to the novella Michael Kohlhaas by Heinrich von Kleist. I was a student of German at the time Ragtime was released, and I recall a number of students and professors noting the Doctorow's debt to Kleist. It's been discussed at length by everyone from the author of the novel to fans of the movie and novel to scholars to the guy who played Coalhouse Walker in the Broadway musical, Brian Stokes Mitchell.

Links:

http://www.brianstokes.com/sthtml/new_york_post.html

Seen as strands of the national tapestry is the interweaving tale of three families, but the key motivating incident of "Ragtime" is a thin anecdote of racial insult and injustice.

This, which Doctorow cleverly amplified from Heinrich von Kleist's famous 1808 novella, "Michael Kohlhaas," reveals the search for respect of the hero, black ragtime pianist Coalhouse Walker Jr., which spirals up - with more fancy than likelihood - into a national riot.


http://www.observer.com/node/40301

http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/lpop/etext/lsf/sterne12.htm


Secondly, there's a brand-new book on Evelyn Nesbit, American Eve, by Paula Uruburu. You'll find reviews online if you put the title into a search engine. There are even at least two videos on YouTube dealing with the subject!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCb3YNsUYJs


Thirdly, obviously Harry Houdini was a real-life figure as well, as was Emma Goldman. And I suppose Tateh, the immigrant filmmaker, has his parallel in many of the men in the fledgling American movie industry.

Surely there's a ring of hell for greenlighting Adam Sandler and Will Ferrell movies.

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